What is with the bitcoin obsession?

I read that thread; lolol is my response

That is funny I laughed at your "gold has intrinsic value" post. How you could type up such a poor argument and think you are in position to laugh at that thread is beyond me.






Yes. They do have intrinsic value; you can use them for things other than money. what can you use bitcoins for other than money? oh and lets not forget you need a computer to use them.. no wait two computers, one for buyer and one for seller, and not only that you need a internet connection. I'm not so sure the world wide web will last forever, but my gold and silver will, for many many generations to come

And are you predicting the collapse of civilization and the rise of some technophobic age? That seems to be about what it would take for the internet to go away, yet you can't even be sure it won't just fade away as if it were some trendy fashion. The internet isn't going anywhere. Its here to stay, permanently. Computers will only get more prevalent as time goes by (in ways that would seem fantastic to us now, and so will the internet. If I had billions of dollars I would bet all of it on that. I would type up a lot more to debunk your post, but its midnight and I would just be wasting my breath. Most people here can see through the "but money must have some mystical intrinsic value like Gold does" argument. Value theory is basic stuff. And really I've only seen your willingness to type "lol".
 
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You have not proved anything, that post is beyond you? well you must think really highly of yourself(sike)

look what that thread is based on. a study that is based on a fraud(federal researve notes) I still run in to people THESE DAYS AND THEY THINK MONEY S BACKED BY GOLD STILL! bait and switch its as old as the game itself
 
Well, then you are wrong.

Gold does not derive its "value" from the fact that its a piece of rock. It has value (outside of being money) because people liked its properties for its utility. A rock in a river is also a piece of rock, but people does not find it as valuable as gold. By the way, in a way bitcoins are physical as well. The electric state of some transistors is physical. The magnetic charge in a hard drive is physical.

You have no way of defining the value of gold outside of their utility for some human. Until you dont realize that value is subjective you wont understand what is going on. Btw, I dont oppose gold. Im a big fan of gold (just for the right reasons). I have been advocating that bitcoin and gold complement each other for a long time.

I'm NOT talking about "value", I'm talking about "INTRINSIC value" (I don't know what am I supposed to do to clarify that)

Value = people perceive something valuable for whatever reason, whatver it may be, I'm NOT talking about "value" here (& YES, "value" IS subjective, I recognize that but I'm trying to talk about "intrinsic value" here)
intrinsic value = whatever thing that people find valuable for whatever reason they find it valuable; having "intrinsic value" means that thing DERIVES ITS VALUE from its SUBSTANCE

Gold's SUBSTANCE = chemical element Aurum which is SPECIFIC;
IF people perceive gold to have value (for WHATEVER reason) THEN they perceive it in this SPECIFIC ELEMENT called Aurum, they value it for its SUBSTANCE ie THE ELEMENT ITSELF; NOT gold's picture on a computer screen, NOT the numbers that may represent it, NOT gold-certificates but THE ELEMENT Aurum which is its SUBSTANCE so it has "intrinsic value" since its value is derived from the SUBSTANCE ITSELF & not necessarily from its form or anything else

Paper-money's SUBSTANCE = processed paper;
paper-money does NOT DERIVE its value from its substance, its form & govt print gives it value so it's value is SYBOLIC, NOT "intrinsic". If we tore apart a $100 bill & people still valued it as much THEN it could be said to have "intrinsic value" but that's NOT the case.
When people exchange $100 bill for goods, its NOT because the paper itself (the SUBSTANCE) is worth that much but because of its form & govt print while when people generally exchange gold (for dollars or whatever the heck it is, it's irrelevant to the point), they perceive gold ITSELF to be worth something. It does NOT mean that it has "value" (I was NEVER talking about "value", I hope that's clear by now) but it does mean that WHEN it has value then it is INTRISIC ie derived from its SUBSTANCE
A $100 bill's "intrinsic value" would be whatever the paper itself is worth on the market if it's just traded on the markets as mere paper,whether in its complete form or if it was torn into tiny pieces.
Let's say, if there was a gold-coin which supposedly belonged to Jefferson, obviously it'd be worth much more than the market value of gold contained in it so its value will NOT be "intrinsic" as it largely derives from the fact that it belonged to Jefferson & not necessarily because its made of gold so its value is "SYMBOLIC", not "intrinsic"; just like paper-money & bitcoins.

Bitcoins's SUBSTANCE = GENERIC 1s & 0s;
people DON'T value bitcoins because they're made up of 1s & 0s so it does NOT DERIVE its value from its substance so it does NOT have "intrinsic value" because its substance itself is GENERIC, NOT SPECIFIC (unlike Aurum), not to mention it's FICTIONAL & its NOT a physical, tangible asset. Bitcoins' "intrinsic value" would be whatever generic intangible 1s & 0s are worth which is.......

And to be clear, I'm NOT necessarily debating bitcoins' feasibility as money, I'm NOT talking about "value" (which IS subjective) but rather I'm talking about the concept of "INTRINSIC value"

NOTE: I'm NOT making the same argument as steve005, I'm making a DIFFERENT argument on "intrinsicness" of gold's value so please don't conflate our arguments.
 
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first of all your whole logic is flawed, what gives a chair value? the wood it's made from(or metal, etc etc), or the fact that you can sit in it?

what gives gold value?; not it's substance but what it can be used for

what gives dollars value? it was gold, then it was the biggest world super-power saying you must keep using this paper even though it's worthless in and of itself. so in other words we've been tricked into using fiat and now your using that to sell your idea about a new money that you can't even see hold or touch, and no-one could print them(yeah right, what if bill gates or the government decides to get into it, you really think it would be any better than a fiat that at least they cant track
 
this is very un-ron paul, we are trying to get back to sound money, not farther away from it, you guys selling this on this forum should just leave and this thread should be closed
 
this is very un-ron paul, we are trying to get back to sound money, not farther away from it, you guys selling this on this forum should just leave and this thread should be closed

Yes master! As you command master! :rolleyes:
 
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Paul Or Nothing II you are making a big mistake because you are asking the wrong question.

Your question is "what has intrinsic value" when it should be "why does something have intrinsic value" and the answer to this question is "because of it's inherent properties".

Gold has properties that are intrinsic. It's those properties that give it intrinsic value.

Bitcoin has properties that are intrinsic. It's those properties that give it intrinsic value.

Now you could argue that while golds intrinsic properties that give it intrinsic value cannot change and Bitcoin's can that it's unsafe to use Bitcoin for it's intrinsic value. But you can't argue they don't have it, even if it's artificially created and could potentially but unlikely change.
 
I have a question.

Since only like 21 million bitcoins will be created, and all bitcoins are tied at any given time to a particular wallet. And if I understand correctly, wallet.dat is not a retrievable item if one were to lose it, what happens to the bitcoins that will inevitably be lost, in irretrievable wallet.dat files, that are just erased by mistake or whatnot.

It seems a lot of people will try this, get a bitcoin, or a fraction of a bitcoins, then just simply lose interest. Well, that 1 bitcoin, .05 bitcoin, or whatever amount, after that point will never reenter circulation.

So, in theory after a certain point, the total number of bitcoins in circulation will decline, as in those stuck in lost wallet.dat files, that are no longer retrievable, due to the owner reformatting a drive, or drive failure, or lack of interest.

It seems to me that if indeed the total number of bitcoins will decline (after a certain point, due to loss of access), then the system has a serious flaw.


As in 21 million bitcoins are created, someones house burnt down, they lost their wallet.dat containing 3 bitcoins. They neglected to back it up, now there are 21 million -3 bitcoins in circulation, with no means to replace them. Or teeny bopper george, sets up a bitcoin account, he goes to that bitcoin faucet site, then after meeting sally down the street loses all interest in bitcoin, forgets about and eventually reformats his hard drive to make room for his love song collection. So, .05 bitcoins out of circulation.

You can make any scenario, but at some point the number of bitcoins in circulation will permanently decline at some rate, and the consequences of that don't seem good.

So, unless there is some means of replacing lost bitcoins, it seems doomed. As with gold, we always find some new amount of gold, or paper money, well they just print a replacement up. It seems with bitcoins, that it has no tolerance for lost, or permanently locked up bitcoins, as would be the case with a lost wallet.dat file.

I know, it's up to people to watch their wallet, but at the same time, a functional means of trade cannot be predicated upon something that will become automatically rarer with time, as that sets up a system by which you are rewarded for simply holding a bitcoins, as opposed to using it as stable means of transacting. And this rarity is not a matter of increased population participating which in theory would increase demand anyway, but would occur even if the user base remained relatively unchanged.
 
You are correct. Eventually when all almost 21mio are generated there will probably be a constant monetary deflation because of lost Bitcoins which cannot be retrieved in any way.

However I'm very unhappy when you make statements about what this means for Bitcoin as a whole. You statements carry zero weight. What you think is good or bad is irrelevant unless you can find facts to prove it.

I suggest you read: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=10426.0
 
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However I'm very unhappy when you make statements about what this means for Bitcoin as a whole. You statements carry zero weight

lol. you're the guy who came up with this aren't you?

What you think is good or bad is irrelevant unless you can find facts to prove it.

ditto
 
But even if bitcoins get lost at a certain rate, they are still divisible up to 8 decimal places so they would just rise in value as they became rarer.

As long as eventually they could become divisible by more than eight decimal places then they could continue to function effectively indefinitely.
 
lol. you're the guy who came up with this aren't you?

i been trying to figure out his angle. even gold backers will not this much time defending their position and they will just give up.

i personally think his on the level of someone like Jonathan lebed, the more people that gets suckered into this bit trash project the more value the bit trash go up. so i'm thinking his one of those geeks who has like 20 computers in his house computing those hashes and saved up a sizable amount of bit trash. so his going all over the internet and hyping up these worthless bits to sell at one point.

EDIT: come to think of it, its Jonathan Lebed!
 
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Oops, you got me. :rolleyes:

No but seriously I have already fully explaining my involvement with Bitcoin within this thread somewhere I believe.. I don't really care what you think of me anyway. But I do want to fully disclose my intention which is to spread awareness of Bitcoin as far and as wide as possible and let the market decided if it's useful or not.

The reason why I'm so viciously attacking anyone who makes statements about it is because that's what they are. No facts, just opinionated statements derived from their own beliefs which are divorced from the fact based reality. I have zero problem with anyone raising a valid concern or making an argument either for or against Bitcoin as long as they back it up with facts. I myself have spent at least a week on the bitcoin forums and in their irc chatroom when I first found out about it asking questions and raising issues until I got satisfied and acquired the belief that Bitcoin is a technologically and economically sound project.

Unfortunately I also understand how human nature works and how everyone has an ego and everyone has learned certain beliefs from their circle of trusted people which I think is the main reason we have this problem where so many things in the world are believed that are completely fabricated and irrational such as religion of any kind, certain socio-economical and political beliefs, ect.. And I just can't help myself but to only see RED when someone spouts their bs especially if it's a topic I think is important.
 
Bitcoin uses mathematical calculations to discover the coins.

What's to stop me from copying this open source software, and starting a new currency that works exactly the same way. Call it "abolitionistCoin"?

It would be a separate network from bitcoin, a separate currency, would take all the same amount of time to find....

Thus, while inflation is controlled by the bitcoin software for bitcoin, parallelizing the system and making a competing currency is another form of inflation, and it seems the barrier for entry to do that would be pretty low.

I've not studied the bitcoin system in significant detail, so I may be missing something.
 
What's to stop me from copying this open source software, and starting a new currency that works exactly the same way. Call it "abolitionistCoin"?

It would be a separate network from bitcoin, a separate currency, would take all the same amount of time to find....

Thus, while inflation is controlled by the bitcoin software for bitcoin, parallelizing the system and making a competing currency is another form of inflation, and it seems the barrier for entry to do that would be pretty low.

I've not studied the bitcoin system in significant detail, so I may be missing something.

You aren't missing anything.
If you can find other people who would participate in your new parallel system, and those people agree to use the coins in your new system as a medium of exchange, then everybody is happy... isn't this anarcho-capitalism at it's finest?:)
 
The thing is you guys are merging the two concepts of "value" & "instrinsic value" so let me substitute the word "face value" for the word "value", may be it'll help.

first of all your whole logic is flawed, what gives a chair value? the wood it's made from(or metal, etc etc), or the fact that you can sit in it?

what gives gold value?; not it's substance but what it can be used for

what gives dollars value? it was gold,

Please read my previous comments again, I've never said utility doesn't matter neither have I said "intrinsic value" always equals "face value", in often doesn't.

The simple fact is that if the paper (the SUBSTANCE) of $100 bill was worth $100 & the paper (the SUBSTANCE) of $10 bill was worth $10 & so on (may be due rarity of such paper in nature for example), then none of us here would be moaning about such a monetary-standard; the only reason we don't like it is because the "intrinsic value" (the value of the paper itself ie substance) of dollar-bills is next to nothing compared to their "face value", which allows for almost limitless production so you obviously do believe that substance matters even though you don't realize it. At the same time, the only reason a lot of us support gold as money because the "intrinsic value" & "face value" of such money will be equal due to such money deriving its value from its substance & not from its form or govt authority.

As for the chair, I've never said utility provided by a thing doesn't matter so obviously chair's "face value" is determined by the fact that we can sit in it, so it is its FORM that gives it its "face value" but its "intrinsic value" will be equal to whatever its scrap metal/wood would be worth after its broken irreparably or no longer desirable by anyone for the utility it provides.

Paul Or Nothing II you are making a big mistake because you are asking the wrong question.

Your question is "what has intrinsic value" when it should be "why does something have intrinsic value" and the answer to this question is "because of it's inherent properties".

Gold has properties that are intrinsic. It's those properties that give it intrinsic value.

Bitcoin has properties that are intrinsic. It's those properties that give it intrinsic value.

Now you could argue that while golds intrinsic properties that give it intrinsic value cannot change and Bitcoin's can that it's unsafe to use Bitcoin for it's intrinsic value. But you can't argue they don't have it, even if it's artificially created and could potentially but unlikely change.

Again, you're merging "face value" & "intrinsic value", they may be equal but mayn't always be, just like in the above example of dollar-bills where there's vast disparity between "instrinsic value" & "face value".

During civil war, when Lincoln created too much paper-money, every $1 gold-coin was worth many "paper-dollars" so people started hoarding gold-coins or melted & sold them because their "intrinsic value" had exceeded their "face value" & Gresham's Law took over. If we experience very high inflation then even we might've a situation where some of our coins' "intrinsic value" (value of the metals contained in them) may exceed their "face value".

I hope these examples clarify at least a little about what I've been trying to say all this while.

Anyways, I think I've offered enough explanation on what I mean by "intrinsic" ("belonging to a thing by its very nature"), I don't think this discussion is going to go anywhere, I guess we all have our convictions so I'll leave it at that.

P.S. : Can someone here (may be Collins or someone who can get in touch with Ron) request Ron to issue a somewhat detailed explanation about "intrinsic value of gold"? Afterall, economics, gold-standard, etc are his main issues & a lot of his detractors (as well as supporters as is obvious here) make him look like an idiot by "discrediting" him & his "intrinsic value of gold" theory so if he can release something to explain it in detail then there'll be a lot less confusion among his supporters & we'll be able to handle his detractors a lot better. Is anyone here who can request him for this?
 
But even if bitcoins get lost at a certain rate, they are still divisible up to 8 decimal places so they would just rise in value as they became rarer.

As long as eventually they could become divisible by more than eight decimal places then they could continue to function effectively indefinitely.


That's not the issue.

The issue is if you have a permanently deflationary currency, it puts a permanent drag on the economy. As in if the scenario was that we would not let any new houses get built after 21 million, and sometimes old houses get destroyed for whatever reason, and at the same time more people are being born, and demand for housing will rise, then the obvious path for everyone to take is simply hoard (never sell there house, whenever possible), as as long as the system exists the value will forever rise (AFTER 21 Million), thus less reason to invest, or spend, which might sound good if you are in the hoarder class, but it will lead to a situation that does not look inviting to a new user. As in the market will not be as liquid as it would be if the system matched "housing demand" with "actual housing", which would not result in a defacto gain for simply holding assets.

However, once it dawns on people that there is no reason to not build more houses(bitcoins, or other currency), people will start building them in another system that is more sustainable. As increasing the currency(housing) is not bad, as long as it does not increase at a greater rate than additions into the economy. Bitcoin fails on that count. As it promotes hoarding from the inception, which is destructive to any economy.

Anyway, I like the general bitcoin concept but I've now looked into it for the Second Time, and feel it's flawed from inception, Maybe someone will take the code, and make another version that incorporates a rational mechanism for coin creation. As the current mechanism is less than ideal.

Of Course, that's all my opinion, just like it's everyones opinion on this subject.

But all you have to evaluate is the consequences of a currency that will become more rare all the time. It's seems obvious to me, but hazek will disagree, I'm sure, and not offer a reason why a currency that always dwindles in availability is good.

Or if this helps, imagine a currency backed by Gold, but the difference is in this alternate world, no new gold could ever be mined. What would the consequences of that be? They aren't good. Hoarding is the obvious consequence, and hoarding has a negative impact on investment activity, which has an negative effect on all those participating in the system, except for the hoarders.

Anyway, I'm done, but I think the system is broken, in a meaningful way, that will limit bitcoins from being anything more than a sideshow in the world of currencies. Maybe someone will take the source and tweak the method of coin introduction, to account for such things, but I can't see investing real money, and time, into what is designed to suck all the money in one direction.

If you could hold a dollar, and know 100% it would be worth(more purchasing power) more every year, would you be more likely or less likely to invest that dollar into a productive enterprise? The answer is for most less likely, as if the dollar just maintained value, then you want to chase profits to some degree, and under the current system, which is way bent to the inflationary side, you have to invest just to maintain your purchasing power. The idealized goal of a currency is to simply maintain purchasing power all things being equal over a period of time, then there is no extreme impetus to hoard, nor forced investment, which leads to bubbles and such.

I just see the 21 million limit as a bad idea,for the reasons above. And the only reason I'd participate in bitcoins is if I thought it could replace the current flawed system. As is it's trading one gross flaw for another.

Bitcoins 2.0 ?
 
How well does Bitcoin compare to gold & silver? PM's have made it to the top of the money chain throughout the centuries because they master the following characteristics.

  • Desirable
  • Divisible
  • Durable
  • Portable
  • Scarce
 
You aren't missing anything.
If you can find other people who would participate in your new parallel system, and those people agree to use the coins in your new system as a medium of exchange, then everybody is happy... isn't this anarcho-capitalism at it's finest?:)

Yep exactly. Feel free to copy and start your own and good luck!
 
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