What if the Germans had won the first world war?

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What if the Germans had won the first world war?

Martin Kettle

The Guardian, Wednesday 25 December 2013 13.59 EST

People who see a divine hand or the iron laws of dialectical materialism at work in human affairs bridle at the question: "What if things had turned out differently?" To EH Carr, historian of Soviet Russia, to speak of what might have happened in history, as opposed to what did happen, was just a "parlour game". To EP Thompson, author of The Making of the English Working Class, such counterfactual speculation was "unhistorical shit".

Other historians have confessed to being more intrigued. "The historian must constantly put himself at a point in the past at which the known factors will seem to permit different outcomes," wrote Johan Huizinga. It is important to recognise that, at any moment in history, there are real alternatives, argued Hugh Trevor-Roper.

Happily, none of this argument deters the writers of fiction or the public. Germany's possible defeat of Britain in 1940 is by some distance the national treasure trove of might-have-beens. As long ago as 1964, the film It Happened Here by Kevin Brownlow and Andrew Mollo raised the then unthinkable thought that collaboration would have thrived in Hitler's Britain. More recently, a succession of novels, including Robert Harris's Fatherland, Resistance by Owen Sheers and CJ Sansom's Dominion – which imagines a Vichy Britain in 1952 ruled by Lord Beaverbrook and Oswald Mosley – have explored the same theme.

By comparison, the first world war has been the subject of far less counterfactual speculation. Niall Ferguson is one of the exceptions, in an essay which considers the possibility that Britain might have stood aside from the European war in August 1914. And although his essay suffers from the fact that the Eurosceptic Ferguson is over-eager to portray the kaiser as the godfather of the later European Union, his account of the cabinet debates of 1914 is fascinating because Herbert Asquith's Liberal government could so easily have decided to stay out of the war – and very nearly did.

With the centenary of the first world war almost upon us, 2014 is likely to witness plenty of debate about the right forms of commemoration and about whether the war achieved anything. At present, argument about the war mainly consists of two mutually uncomprehending camps. On the one hand, there are those who, as Margaret MacMillan put it recently, think the war was "an unmitigated catastrophe in a sea of mud". On the other, there are those who insist that it was nevertheless "about something". At the time, says MacMillan, people on all sides thought they had a just cause. "It is condescending and wrong to think they were hoodwinked."

But what was the something that the first world war was about? To answer that it was a war between empires, which it surely was, is fine as long as some effort is made to distinguish between the empires. But this rarely happens in a debate that is polarised between collective myths of national sacrifice on the one hand (certainly in Britain and France) and an indiscriminate muddy catastrophe on the other.

The more one tries to examine and maybe get beyond these dominant narratives, as we should next year and as the centenary rolls on, the more a bit of the counterfactual may help the process.

The first world war came to an end in November 1918, when the German armies surrendered near Compiegne. But it could plausibly have ended in a very different way in spring 1918, if Ludendorff's offensive on Paris and towards the Channel had succeeded. It nearly did so. And what might 20th-century Europe have been like if it had?

Obviously, it would have been dominated and shaped by Germany. But what kind of Germany? The militaristic, conservative, repressive Prussian power created by Bismarck? Or the Germany with the largest labour movement in early 20th-century Europe? German history after 1918 would have been a contest between the two – and no one can say which would have won in the end.

But one can say that a victorious Germany, imposing peace on the defeated allies at the treaty of Potsdam, would not have had the reparations and grievances that were actually inflicted upon it by France at Versailles. As a consequence, the rise of Hitler would have been much less likely. In that case, neither the Holocaust nor the second world war would necessarily have followed. If Germany's Jews had survived, Zionism might not have had the international moral force that it rightly claimed after Hitler's defeat. The modern history of the Middle East would therefore be very different – partly also because Turkey would have been among the victors in 1918.

In the kaiser's Europe, defeated France would be the more likely seedbed for fascism, not Germany. But with its steel and coal still in German-controlled Alsace-Lorraine, France's military and naval potential would have been contained. Meanwhile, defeated Britain would have seen its navy sunk in the Heligoland Bight, have been forced to cede its oil interests in the Middle East and the Gulf to Germany, and have been unable to contain Indian nationalism. In practice, the British empire would have been unsustainable. Today's Britain might have ended up as a modest north European social democratic republic – like Denmark without a prince.

Meanwhile America, whose entry into the war would have been successfully pre-empted by Germany's victory, would have become a firmly isolationist power and not the enforcer of international order.

Franklin Roosevelt would solve America's postwar economic problems in the 1930s, but he would never fight a war in Europe – though he might have to fight one against Japan. The Soviet Union, with a wary but powerful neighbour in victorious Germany, would have been the great destabilising factor but it might not have been invaded as it was in 1941. And with no second world war there might never have been a cold war either.

A parlour game? Obviously. But at least we can see that the outcome mattered. Europe would have been different if Germany had won in 1918. It would have been grim, repressive and unpredictable in many ways. But there is a plausible case for saying many fewer people would have died in 20th-century Europe. If nothing else, that is worth some reflection. The first world war was a catastrophe in the mud. But it was about something more than tragic sacrifice too. The outcome – what happened and what did not – made a difference. In 2014 we need to get beyond the rival national perspectives and learn to see the war more objectively and thoughtfully than has yet happened.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/25/if-germans-won-first-world-war
 
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Also of interest: http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/world-war-i/

Charles Burris said:
World War I

Concerning American involvement in the First World War, consider these perceptive observations from a famous participant in that tragic conflict (who later became very instrumental in the Second World War):
America should have minded her own business and stayed out of the World War. If you hadn’t entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the Spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy followed by Fascism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty, which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war, all these `isms’ wouldn’t today be sweeping the continent of Europe and breaking down parliamentary government – and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over one million British, French, American, and other lives.

– Winston Churchill 1936 interview, the New York Enquirer

As First Lord of the Admiralty in World War I, he supervised the British hunger blockade of Germany. By endeavoring to starve the German population, Churchill hoped to undermine the German war machine from within.

As historian Ralph Raico notes:
From the outset of hostilities, Churchill, as head of the Admiralty, was instrumental in establishing the hunger blockade of Germany. This was probably the most effective weapon employed on either side in the whole conflict. The only problem was that, according to everyone’s interpretation of international law except Britain’s, it was illegal. The blockade was not “close-in,” but depended on scattering mines, and many of the goods deemed contraband for instance, food for civilians had never been so classified before. But, throughout his career, international law and the conventions by which men have tried to limit the horrors of war meant nothing to Churchill. As a German historian has dryly commented, Churchill was ready to break the rules whenever the very existence of his country was at stake, and “for him this was very often the case.”

The hunger blockade had certain rather unpleasant consequences. About 750,000 German civilians succumbed to hunger and diseases caused by malnutrition. The effect on those who survived was perhaps just as frightful in its own way. A historian of the blockade concluded: “the victimized youth [of World War I] were to become the most radical adherents of National Socialism.” It was also complications arising from the British blockade that eventually provided the pretext for Wilson’s decision to go to war in 1917.

Whether Churchill actually arranged for the sinking of the Lusitania on May 7, 1915, is still unclear. A week before the disaster, he wrote to Walter Runciman, President of the Board of Trade that it was “most important to attract neutral shipping to our shores, in the hopes especially of embroiling the United States with Germany.” Many highly-placed persons in Britain and America believed that the German sinking of the Lusitania would bring the United States into the war.

The most recent student of the subject is Patrick Beesly, whose Room 40 is a history of British Naval Intelligence in World War I. Beesly’s careful account is all the more persuasive for going against the grain of his own sentiments. He points out that the British Admiralty was aware that German U-boat Command had informed U-boat captains at sea of the sailings of the Lusitania, and that the U-boat responsible for the sinking of two ships in recent days was present in the vicinity of Queenstown, off the southern coast of Ireland, in the path the Lusitania was scheduled to take. There is no surviving record of any specific warning to the Lusitania. No destroyer escort was sent to accompany the ship to port, nor were any of the readily available destroyers instructed to hunt for the submarine. In fact, “no effective steps were taken to protect the Lusitania.”

Beesly concludes:
Unless and until fresh information comes to light, I am reluctantly driven to the conclusion that there was a conspiracy deliberately to put the Lusitania at risk in the hope that even an abortive attack on her would bring the United States into the war. Such a conspiracy could not have been put into effect without Winston Churchill’s express permission and approval.”
Most conventional historians today view World War I and World War II as a modern Thirty Years War, interrupted on the surface by a supposed brief hiatus of ceased overt hostilities but where unresolved tensions and covert aggressive provocations (as a result of the vengeful Carthaginian peace of the Treaty of Versailles) continued to fester and undermine peaceful international order. This viewpoint challenges the myth of between the wars “isolationism” put forth by generations of court historians. Just as internecine tensions in the Balkans led to the Great War, hostile actions such as the Polish-Soviet War, and aggressions in Manchuria, Ethiopia, Spain, preceded the Second World War.
 
If the US had stayed out, the western allies may have wanted a peace settlement, but Germany would have to agree. It would have been more likely in my view that things would have gone as they did until the Spring of 1918, when the success of the Spring offensives (because there was no US force to stop it) would have had peace terms essentially along German terms.

So I get to the same result, by a different path. The real interesting point is what happens between a Communist Soviet Union and Imperial Germany in the 1920s onward - potentially round 2 limited to the Soviet Union and Germany.
 
Germany had no way of winning lol. They had less resources and were surrounded by enemy states. If they launched a direct blow on France, they would be pushed back and held in place. At best, Austria could possibly hold back back the Russians, while the Ottomans faced pressure in the Mediterranean from Italy and Allied colonies, and Germany could have negotiated with Italy for neutrality with the promise of proper French land, and attack France directly.

The results? Possibly a win for the Central Powers. They wouldn't have to combat the masters of the Mediterranean. The Italians were pretty decisive, as the French Navy wasn't as fit for combat as the Austrian, Ottoman, and German fleets. If Germany destroyed France and assaulted Britain, and the Russians were held off, France would probably have become fascist over Germany, and Britain would be on their side. Fascism would dominate Western Europe, and Russia would probably be tossed to the side of the Germans.

If a second world war was to be started, the Western Fascists would probably taken Japan as an ally over China, and Japan wouldn't try attacking the United States as a preemptive measure. Japan would emerge as a global superpower, as it didn't suffer nearly as much, and would have wrecked China and stopped the spread of Soviet imperialism. The Ottoman Empire wouldn't have collapsed (but it would be weaker), and the Americans would have nuclear capabilities, which would deter fascist invasion. Communism in Russia would have collapsed, and Eastern Russian lands would probably be awarded to Japan.
 
Germany had no way of winning lol. They had less resources and were surrounded by enemy states. If they launched a direct blow on France, they would be pushed back and held in place. At best, Austria could possibly hold back back the Russians, while the Ottomans faced pressure in the Mediterranean from Italy and Allied colonies, and Germany could have negotiated with Italy for neutrality with the promise of proper French land, and attack France directly.

The results? Possibly a win for the Central Powers. They wouldn't have to combat the masters of the Mediterranean. The Italians were pretty decisive, as the French Navy wasn't as fit for combat as the Austrian, Ottoman, and German fleets. If Germany destroyed France and assaulted Britain, and the Russians were held off, France would probably have become fascist over Germany, and Britain would be on their side. Fascism would dominate Western Europe, and Russia would probably be tossed to the side of the Germans.

If a second world war was to be started, the Western Fascists would probably taken Japan as an ally over China, and Japan wouldn't try attacking the United States as a preemptive measure. Japan would emerge as a global superpower, as it didn't suffer nearly as much, and would have wrecked China and stopped the spread of Soviet imperialism. The Ottoman Empire wouldn't have collapsed (but it would be weaker), and the Americans would have nuclear capabilities, which would deter fascist invasion. Communism in Russia would have collapsed, and Eastern Russian lands would probably be awarded to Japan.

Mhh, the fascists wouldn't have won in this scenario. US at the sidelines? Soviets, Germany, Italy against a fascist france, uk and japan. Fascists would have lost brah. Plus fascist france could only arise if france asked for a peace treaty in wwI. This would have never happened. Either germany won fair and square or lost in a peace treaty. My two cents.
 
All I know is that if Austro-Hungary had won the war and gone with the Triple-Monarchy plans it would have been a hell of a lot better for the country I live now.
 
Mhh, the fascists wouldn't have won in this scenario. US at the sidelines? Soviets, Germany, Italy against a fascist france, uk and japan. Fascists would have lost brah. Plus fascist france could only arise if france asked for a peace treaty in wwI. This would have never happened. Either germany won fair and square or lost in a peace treaty. My two cents.

Fascist France and Italy wouldn't have opposed one another. It was the rise of fascism in Italy that inspired fascism in Germany, and I'm assuming the same would happen with France. It would be more like France, UK, Italy vs Germany, the broken Austria-Hungarian Empire, and the USSR. Japan would likely be a loose cannon, but I doubt it would try attacking China while it's aligned with F.U.I. and the rest of the allies (the Pacific War would definitely have never happened). If China's still on board, the USSR would be facing an attack on virtually all fronts but the north. The US wouldn't even have a reason to intervene much.

Unless the Soviets promised Japan Chinese territory, I'm certain they would have been on the Allies' side.
 
This is a great book.

51raf-LAQZL._SY344_PJlook-inside-v2,TopRight,1,0_SH20_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 
h/t LRC: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/01/paul-gottfried/sleepwalk-to-suicide/

FTA: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sleepwalk-to-suicide/
Sleepwalk to Suicide
Hubris no greater than America’s led Europe to World War I.

Perhaps no war has been treated more tendentiously — and in recent decades more inappropriately — than World War I. Since the 1960s, a fixed view of that conflict has developed in academic and journalistic circles that places the blame almost entirely on one side. The German government, led by an evil, authoritarian emperor and his bellicose general staff, unleashed a struggle that cost more than 30 million lives and wrought untold destruction on the European continent.

According to the scholar Fritz Fischer — who became the German Left’s darling, despite his background as a loyal Nazi — the war was planned and initiated by a Germany bent on world domination. What other belligerents did to get the ball rolling in 1914, Fischer suggests in his 1961 book Germany’s Bid for World Power, was inconsequential. The rest of Europe was pulled into a struggle that Germany had planned for decades, a conflagration its antidemocratic ruling class and ultranationalist public happily initiated.

Defenses of the Fischer thesis and other versions of the outbreak of the Great War stressing exclusive German or Austro-German responsibility have been driven by moral and ideological considerations. Unfortunately, there are facts that historians until recently tried studiously to avoid. As critics of Fischer’s position were already showing in the early ’60s, his singling out of his own country, already burdened with Nazi crimes, for starting an earlier Euro- pean war was based on questionable investigative methods.

Fischer and his followers ignored what other European countries did to provoke the Great War, unfairly blackened the reputation of German Chancellor Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg — who tried earnestly to iron out differences between England and his country for at least three years before the war started — and misquoted key German actors in the conflict, such as the Kaiser and the chief of the German general staff.

In recent decades those who write non-prescribed histories dealing with the outbreak of the First World War typically ignore Fischer and like-minded interpreters. Niall Ferguson in The Pity of War, Konrad Canis in his massive three-volume German work on the failures of German diplomacy leading to the “abyss” in 1914, Christopher Clark in The Sleepwalkers, and Sean McMeekin in The Russian Origins of World War One have all produced estimable studies about the Great War that are clearly incompatible with Fischer’s stress on exclusive German guilt.

[...]

[...] Woodrow Wilson and his party were not the major backers of getting the U.S. involved in the bloodbath. Wilson delayed in the face of Republican hysteria about not moving fast enough to stand with England for “democracy.” Today’s neoconservatives are not the first to talk up the “Anglosphere.” One-time Republican celebrities like Theodore Roosevelt, Elihu Root, and Henry Cabot Lodge were demanding in 1914 that we get into a European war we would have done well to stay out of. The GOP’s horrid habits go back a very long way.

President George W. Bush exceeded in his calls for America to liberate the rest of the world any expression of chauvinism from a major European leader on the eve of World War I. But tactless behavior has not produced the consequences for us that it did for the “sleep-walking” subjects of Christopher Clark’s history. We are lucky about where our country is located and how much wealthier and stronger we are relative to other states. What did Bismarck say about God looking after fools, drunkards and the United States of America?
 
As someone who is very much into Alternate History I have spent much time thinking on this. A German Victory means that there is no Hitler, probably no USSR, and the US minds its own business. There would also be less establishment of welfare states in the West.
 
Germany had no way of winning lol. They had less resources and were surrounded by enemy states. If they launched a direct blow on France, they would be pushed back and held in place. At best, Austria could possibly hold back back the Russians, while the Ottomans faced pressure in the Mediterranean from Italy and Allied colonies, and Germany could have negotiated with Italy for neutrality with the promise of proper French land, and attack France directly.

The results? Possibly a win for the Central Powers. They wouldn't have to combat the masters of the Mediterranean. The Italians were pretty decisive, as the French Navy wasn't as fit for combat as the Austrian, Ottoman, and German fleets. If Germany destroyed France and assaulted Britain, and the Russians were held off, France would probably have become fascist over Germany, and Britain would be on their side. Fascism would dominate Western Europe, and Russia would probably be tossed to the side of the Germans.

If a second world war was to be started, the Western Fascists would probably taken Japan as an ally over China, and Japan wouldn't try attacking the United States as a preemptive measure. Japan would emerge as a global superpower, as it didn't suffer nearly as much, and would have wrecked China and stopped the spread of Soviet imperialism. The Ottoman Empire wouldn't have collapsed (but it would be weaker), and the Americans would have nuclear capabilities, which would deter fascist invasion. Communism in Russia would have collapsed, and Eastern Russian lands would probably be awarded to Japan.

Did you just say Germany had no way to win, and then in the same paragraph say Germany could win?

In any case, there are lots of scenarios where Germany could have won.
 

Regarding which ...

World War I, the Evil Woodrow Wilson, and More
http://tomwoods.com/blog/world-war-i-the-evil-woodrow-wilson-and-more/

I talked to Paul Gottfried last week, who had just written the article “Sleepwalk to Suicide” about World War I, about the war, the shared responsibility for its outbreak, the decision by Wilson to intervene, and what it all means for US foreign policy then and now. A fun and informative conversion, I hope you’ll agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P07XtqC_m5I

 
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The Great War
http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/the-great-war/
Charles Burris (08 February 2014)

2014 is the centenary year of the beginning of the Great War. Check out this visually stunning documentary on World War I, narrated by the late David Carradine [see below], then listen to this very insightful interview [see previous post] by historian Thomas Woods of historian Paul Gottfried and these cogent presentations by Judge John V. Denson [see below] and historian Ralph Raico [see below]. The horrific events of the First World War shaped the 20th Century in innumerable and profound ways. We are still living in its wake.

World War I: American Legacy (narrated by David Carradine)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxb3j6Ps44c



The Six Months That Changed the World | John V. Denson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzw0Ocjgl8o



World War I: A Failure of State Elites | Ralph Raico
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em9Fcu9xgJo

 
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