What does the Libertarian model for marriage look like?

JohnCifelli1

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I was asked if the state were removed from licensing marriage, how would the benefits currently designated to spouses be received? I got caught without an answer and am hoping for some ideas. One that stood out to me as particularly tricky is extension of SS benefits to the spouse of a deceased person. That seems reasonable to me, but I don't know how that extension would be made without a spouse listed on a contract.
 
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It's a little funny when talking about a "libertarian" model that includes government "benefits".

Understand that if you're including those, you are already moving away from a "libertarian" model. That being said, voluntary contracts can accommodate almost any situation.
 
Gee, why is it this graphic says we need gay marriage? Could it be because the government has made so many things dependent upon marriage over the decades that not doing so would lead to discrimination? Yes! So, we have to have gay marriage. Or...

Immigrants could both come together or wait until they can both come together.

We could do away with the income tax. Filed jointly or not.

We could realize that a gay couple are not both biological parents of any child, and stop worrying about non-parents--or give them a path to adoption, as we see fit. That clears out about half of this list, and prevents a situation like the one in California where a step-parent literally has more legal rights than a biological parent.

People could choose their own next-of-kin, and in this computerized age, make it stick--which would benefit even the celibate!

We could actually do away with the Divorce Industry, if marriage weren't set in legal stone, thus saving billions of wasted dollars every year.

We could stop treating domestic assault as something other than what it is--namely assault, which has been illegal for a very, very long time.

We could write wills, if we want our worldly possessions to go to someone other than blood relatives.

Spousal benefits are things that we could arrange ourselves. People could name their own beneficiaries, instead of relying on the one size fits all cookie cutter to decide who should benefit from any insurance or work-related compensation we or our survivors might have. And, yes, we can even set up Social Security that way. The government's desire to do away with these complications and have a one size fits all set of rules to go by can be overcome. Or we can scrap the system altogether and handle it in the private sector and the free market. Housing assistance, copyright renewal, Arlington--if the government can't adjust this stuff, the government needs to go.

As for immunity from being forced to testify against a loved one, well, you can be forced to testify against your own mother. Is this a deal breaker?
 
Tax cut equivalent to the amount spent on marriage benefits to the people paying it now. That is the model I have in mind, everyone can use their tax cut to do whatever the want.
 
We need gay marriage to prevent discrimination against gays by the government, which is so hamstrung it cannot end discrimination without that. And so, what do we have now? Continued discrimination against the celibate, for one thing.

If that graphic in the OP is not one of the finest examples of the Hegelian problem>reaction>solution strategy, then there is no way to demonstrate governmental hijinks at all.
 
Gee, why is it this graphic says we need gay marriage? Could it be because the government has made so many things dependent upon marriage over the decades that not doing so would lead to discrimination? Yes! So, we have to have gay marriage. Or...

Immigrants could both come together or wait until they can both come together.

We could do away with the income tax. Filed jointly or not.

We could realize that a gay couple are not both biological parents of any child, and stop worrying about non-parents--or give them a path to adoption, as we see fit. That clears out about half of this list, and prevents a situation like the one in California where a step-parent literally has more legal rights than a biological parent.

People could choose their own next-of-kin, and in this computerized age, make it stick--which would benefit even the celibate!

We could actually do away with the Divorce Industry, if marriage weren't set in legal stone, thus saving billions of wasted dollars every year.

We could stop treating domestic assault as something other than what it is--namely assault, which has been illegal for a very, very long time.

We could write wills, if we want our worldly possessions to go to someone other than blood relatives.

Spousal benefits are things that we could arrange ourselves. People could name their own beneficiaries, instead of relying on the one size fits all cookie cutter to decide who should benefit from any insurance or work-related compensation we or our survivors might have. And, yes, we can even set up Social Security that way. The government's desire to do away with these complications and have a one size fits all set of rules to go by can be overcome. Or we can scrap the system altogether and handle it in the private sector and the free market. Housing assistance, copyright renewal, Arlington--if the government can't adjust this stuff, the government needs to go.

As for immunity from being forced to testify against a loved one, well, you can be forced to testify against your own mother. Is this a deal breaker?
Only point I'd add here is the disposition of property and dependents in a divorce would be awfully tricky without some kind of arbitration. Will the trophy wife take half of the billionaire's fortune or be booted out the door with nothing but the clothes on her back? Will the kids go with the boozer mom or the never-home dad?

I think if you end up leaving that kind of thing solely to couple, you will end up with a lot more shootings as people perceive no recourse.

I'm not precisely sure how to solve it, but I've got some ideas. Voluntary marriage registration like a registrar of deeds, or make it de regeur to include arbitration arrangements in all marriage contracts.
 
Libertarian marriage is private and contractual. It's free from government intrusion and government "benefits".
 
It's hard to respond to the points in the graphic because they aren't copy and paste-able.

But, obviously income taxes, social security, and immigration restrictions should all be done away too. So if eliminating marriage licenses makes it harder for the government to do those things, then good.

The voluntary arrangements that hospitals and employers make with people should also be none of the government's business.
 
The only benefit on that list couldn't be handled through contract is the ability to refuse to testify against one's spouse, but that's semi-mythic. If the state wants you to testify, they can find a way. There's all sorts of stipulations that allow them to suspend spousal privilege.
 
I was asked if the state were removed from licensing marriage, how would the benefits currently designated to spouses be received? I got caught without an answer and am hoping for some ideas.

If you're forced to stand in a line, and people with guns are making no secret of the fact that they will beat you to death or shoot you if you get out of that line, and you can see that they've got a donkey at the head of the line lined up to kick the next in line in the crotch, but then you get to the head of the line and they just have some guy give you a stiff right cross to the jaw... did you get a benefit?

The verbiage you used in your OP makes me think that in that situation, yes, you'd think that getting your teeth loosened is somehow a benefit to you.

The best thing that you can do in this situation is stop trying to convince other people of an idea until you understand the idea fully. The idea - no, it's not an idea, it's a cold, hard fact - is that the state is at best useless to you. In most circumstances it simply takes your resources and shoves you around and then offers you NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER. In those rare cases where you can point to something that actually is a benefit, we can pretty quickly show that the amount of money, time, and headache you spend to get that benefit is way in excess of what it's actually worth.

But let's go through this list in detail and hopefully you can see that there isn't a single "benefit" on this list that isn't easily solveable through libertarian ideals.

1) Immigration benefits: simple, stop telling people where they can and can't go. Enforce private property rights, but otherwise recognize that there is no rational reason to keep brown people out of the country.

2) File income taxes jointly: Why the fuck is everyone so in love with income taxes? Get rid of them. Problem solved.

3) Joint parenting rights, such as access to children's school records: Eliminate public schools. This is the most urgent of all libertarian positions. It would be nice if we all recognized it.

4) Next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions: let's call this what it is. Authorization to euthanize. What other medical decisions are we talking about? What other medical decisions can't be made by the person in question? Does anyone else think it's a little strange that gay people are really just looking for the right to kill each other?

5) Family visitation rights: Prison? Easy, get rid of prisons. Yes, I'm serious. Hospital? Ok they have a point on that one, but let's privatize hospitals first and then talk scenarios.

6) Custodial rights to children: I don't understand this. Gay people don't breed. If they do then they had sex with someone of the opposite sex, and that person has custodial right because that person is a parent. Are they saying that a lesbian should be able to get pregnant and have a kid and then her gay lover should get custody but the father should not? Nuts to that!
Maybe they're getting artificially inseminated? In that case, why don't they use existing paperwork to establish legal guardianship of the partner? How was that not already possible?
If that was substantially more difficult than a marriage license, then sure, I see the point - but the thing to focus on is that the government was making life difficult, not that it was making it less difficult for other people.

Custodial rights of shared property: I'm not sure what the problem is here... I can share property with my mother or neighbor and we both have custodial right, so what was the problem here?

Child support and alimony: Get rid of those programs. Problem solved. Yes, I'm serious.

7) Qualify for domestic violence intervention: Ok, wait.... so you can't wait to get married to the guy who's beating you up, and afterward you want the cops to do something about it?
Of course this is totally solved by treating "domestic violence" as just regular plain old violence. There's no more reason to treat "domestic violence" as something special than there is reason to treat hate crimes specially.
So the answer again is "Stop having the state do that".

8) Receive spousal funeral and bereavement leave: this is between workers and employers. What's really being said here is "we can now force businesses to do something". That something costs money, and that money doesn't go to the employees.

9) Inherit property: the word "inherit" by definition includes a predecessor and a successor. We're not talking about gay couples when we use the word "inherit", we're talking about sons and daughters. There's already a facility for that, and joint property ownership covers up other issues gay couples could have complained about.
Is there an issue with being joint owners of property? Or are you just not putting your gay lover's name on the deed, and expecting other people to figure it out for you?

10) Receive spousal benefits when officer is.... stop right there, eliminate the constabulary. That's probably the second most urgent libertarian issue.

11) Receive spousal SS benef... eliminate Social Security.

12) Immunity from testifying against spouse: I'd need to type up several pages on this for our statist friends here, but if you're really anti-state, the idea of threatening someone with prison if they don't help you put someone else in prison doesn't have to be explained a whole lot.

13) Apply for housing assistance if in a low-income family: Can you guess what the answer is?

14) Apply for copyright renewal: eliminate intellectual property laws.

15) Receive spousal recognition for policies at Arlington National Cemetery: Eliminate the standing army and for the love of God, stop the dead ancestor worship, stop the state religion involving soldiers, and above all stop killing off young men and claiming it's a good thing.
 
It is always a mistake to justify one government intrusion by pointing to another government intrusion. Saying that we need government-sanctioned marriage because other government programs are based on marriage is a recipe for ever-increasing government. Abolish every government intrusion you can and let the remaining government intrusions adjust - until you can abolish them also.

Business partnerships are routine. there are millions of them. They form, acquire assets, operate for years, dissolve, and distribute assets. They deal with fights, deaths, downturns, bankruptcies, and all manner of unexpected events. And they generally do it without government telling them how to do it. Sometimes there are partnership contracts involved. Sometimes not. Sometimes there are disputes that result in a lawsuit. But that has more to do with the way the court/lawyer monopoly operates than the true necessity of going to court. Marriage can operate the same way.

As for child custody, that is usually arranged by agreement of the parents. But does anyone really think that the way the courts handle custody is working well?
 
Understood, but feel compelled to defend the ideology when challenged by someone who wants to know how the logistic void is filled.


“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” -- Albert Einstein


"Complexity is the essence of the con and the hustle."
 
If you're forced to stand in a line, and people with guns are making no secret of the fact that they will beat you to death or shoot you if you get out of that line, and you can see that they've got a donkey at the head of the line lined up to kick the next in line in the crotch, but then you get to the head of the line and they just have some guy give you a stiff right cross to the jaw... did you get a benefit?

The verbiage you used in your OP makes me think that in that situation, yes, you'd think that getting your teeth loosened is somehow a benefit to you.

The best thing that you can do in this situation is stop trying to convince other people of an idea until you understand the idea fully. The idea - no, it's not an idea, it's a cold, hard fact - is that the state is at best useless to you. In most circumstances it simply takes your resources and shoves you around and then offers you NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER. In those rare cases where you can point to something that actually is a benefit, we can pretty quickly show that the amount of money, time, and headache you spend to get that benefit is way in excess of what it's actually worth.

But let's go through this list in detail and hopefully you can see that there isn't a single "benefit" on this list that isn't easily solveable through libertarian ideals.

1) Immigration benefits: simple, stop telling people where they can and can't go. Enforce private property rights, but otherwise recognize that there is no rational reason to keep brown people out of the country.

2) File income taxes jointly: Why the fuck is everyone so in love with income taxes? Get rid of them. Problem solved.

3) Joint parenting rights, such as access to children's school records: Eliminate public schools. This is the most urgent of all libertarian positions. It would be nice if we all recognized it.

4) Next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions: let's call this what it is. Authorization to euthanize. What other medical decisions are we talking about? What other medical decisions can't be made by the person in question? Does anyone else think it's a little strange that gay people are really just looking for the right to kill each other?

5) Family visitation rights: Prison? Easy, get rid of prisons. Yes, I'm serious. Hospital? Ok they have a point on that one, but let's privatize hospitals first and then talk scenarios.

6) Custodial rights to children: I don't understand this. Gay people don't breed. If they do then they had sex with someone of the opposite sex, and that person has custodial right because that person is a parent. Are they saying that a lesbian should be able to get pregnant and have a kid and then her gay lover should get custody but the father should not? Nuts to that!
Maybe they're getting artificially inseminated? In that case, why don't they use existing paperwork to establish legal guardianship of the partner? How was that not already possible?
If that was substantially more difficult than a marriage license, then sure, I see the point - but the thing to focus on is that the government was making life difficult, not that it was making it less difficult for other people.

Custodial rights of shared property: I'm not sure what the problem is here... I can share property with my mother or neighbor and we both have custodial right, so what was the problem here?

Child support and alimony: Get rid of those programs. Problem solved. Yes, I'm serious.

7) Qualify for domestic violence intervention: Ok, wait.... so you can't wait to get married to the guy who's beating you up, and afterward you want the cops to do something about it?
Of course this is totally solved by treating "domestic violence" as just regular plain old violence. There's no more reason to treat "domestic violence" as something special than there is reason to treat hate crimes specially.
So the answer again is "Stop having the state do that".

8) Receive spousal funeral and bereavement leave: this is between workers and employers. What's really being said here is "we can now force businesses to do something". That something costs money, and that money doesn't go to the employees.

9) Inherit property: the word "inherit" by definition includes a predecessor and a successor. We're not talking about gay couples when we use the word "inherit", we're talking about sons and daughters. There's already a facility for that, and joint property ownership covers up other issues gay couples could have complained about.
Is there an issue with being joint owners of property? Or are you just not putting your gay lover's name on the deed, and expecting other people to figure it out for you?

10) Receive spousal benefits when officer is.... stop right there, eliminate the constabulary. That's probably the second most urgent libertarian issue.

11) Receive spousal SS benef... eliminate Social Security.

12) Immunity from testifying against spouse: I'd need to type up several pages on this for our statist friends here, but if you're really anti-state, the idea of threatening someone with prison if they don't help you put someone else in prison doesn't have to be explained a whole lot.

13) Apply for housing assistance if in a low-income family: Can you guess what the answer is?

14) Apply for copyright renewal: eliminate intellectual property laws.

15) Receive spousal recognition for policies at Arlington National Cemetery: Eliminate the standing army and for the love of God, stop the dead ancestor worship, stop the state religion involving soldiers, and above all stop killing off young men and claiming it's a good thing.

^^^^THIS^^^^

The so-called "benefits" are tools to keep you in The Matrix.

Get .gov OUT of personal lives, privatize hospitals etc and watch everyone's income and daily benefits increase.
 
But does anyone really think that the way the courts handle custody is working well?

The lawyers certainly do.

Considering contesting custody in California? Have ten grand in your hand or no lawyer will even consider taking up the case.
 
The lawyers certainly do.

Considering contesting custody in California? Have ten grand in your hand or no lawyer will even consider taking up the case.

This is the most mind-boggling thing of all of this to me.
Let's not forget the lesson from so many other threads on this site: once you get custody, all you need to do to lose your kids is let them walk home from the park unattended.

The state's custody record is fucking ​stellar.
 
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