What do you guys make of traffic laws?

Actually,, no.
The question is,, " why do police exist at all?"
As far as the roads,, they existed before government. The role of government is facilitating free movement of goods and services, (trade) and the freedom of travel.. Maintaining roads should be local responsibility.

Roads started as foot paths,, and later horse paths or Cart paths,, and later the car.. NO one owned the roads,, they were used by all.

If we buy that argument then should government own and operate the railroads too?

No, the government's role should not be to "facilitate trade and movements of goods and services". That's so ambiguous.
 
This "pre-crime" shit needs to stop. Until a speeding/drunk driver actually does hurt someone/hit something, what have they really done wrong?

Absolutely nothing.
 
Traffic laws are about making money. The state does not care about public safety... that's just an excuse. My personal opinion as a former cop is that if you hurt someone, you will be held criminally and/or civilly liable for such damages. Other than that, I don't believe in pre-crime.
 
Actually,, no.
The question is,, " why do police exist at all?"
As far as the roads,, they existed before government. The role of government is facilitating free movement of goods and services, (trade) and the freedom of travel.. Maintaining roads should be local responsibility.

Roads started as foot paths,, and later horse paths or Cart paths,, and later the car.. NO one owned the roads,, they were used by all.

So, I ask again, why does the government own the roads? The role of government is not to facilitate anything. The role of government is to control.

I'm not sure how privatized roads would work. What would stop someone from buying 4 roads surrounding a neighborhood and trapping them inside? Didn't Carnegie once close down a huge railroad that a lot of people depended on because of a personal dispute? I think it was some railroad that went through NY, but I can't remember.

I just have yet to see a convincing argument for privatized roads that cover ALL possibilities. Like how competition would arise (you can't build over someone else's road). Also, every single road would probably have different rules, so every time you made a turn, you'd have to pull over and find out about the rules. Also, I'll say it again, but where would the competition come from? Without eminent domain, there would often only be a single possible road to travel to a certain place.

I think that we should keep roads public, but get rid of traffic laws and start replacing inefficient and costly traffic lights with roundabouts. Would save A LOT of money in the long-run. Also, while I HATE government spending in general, I think it would be a good idea to fortify existing highways to ensure that they don't need work done every year or two.

I don't know how they'd work, either. However, I know as a rule that competition is better than monopoly. If that's a given, then handing over control of the roads to the bureaucratic nightmare-monopoly of government seems totally backwards to me.

Your first scenario is a common objection to private roads. If you buy up all the land around someone and refuse them access to the outside world, it could be interpreted as an act of aggression. A siege, if you will. The besieger, as such, would be in the wrong according to the NAP.

I don't think your Carnegie example is fair or accurate due to the massive involvement of the government in establishing such monopolies in the railroad industry. Carnegie was very well-connected to government. Without government to prop him up (we can go into the feasibility of monopolies in a free market some other time), shutting down his railroad would have simply been an awful business decision if so many people were dependent on it. Now all those people will be looking for/interested in competition to his suddenly unreliable railroad, his workforce is angry for lost pay, he's lost money from being inactive yet still having bills to pay, etc.

If you want to see how it could work, do some research on the origin of turnpikes. In England and early US, turnpikes supplied high-quality, private roads in the stead of the rough paths crudely constructed and barely maintained by the governments at the time.

As for roads having different rules, it's kind of an absurd question. Don't you think it would be in the interest of road-owners if they streamlined it by agreeing to a common set of traffic rules? I'm fairly positive people could come to a solution without introducing government monopoly. The same goes for the introduction of competition - why do you consider eminent domain necessary to build roads? Why do you think monopoly and force are necessary or superior to voluntary exchange?
 
why do you consider eminent domain necessary to build roads? Why do you think monopoly and force are necessary or superior to voluntary exchange?
I don't consider it necessary. But in crowded urban places, there could be no room for alternative roads without it. There is only so much physical space to build roads. Competition could EASILY be suppressed.
 
If you lived on or had a business on a busy street you would want people to drive at a reasonable speed so you or your customers could enter or exit your parking space. If people drove on the highway at any speed they wished and changed lanes haphazardly it would make it difficult to enter and exit the freeway. HOV lanes should be abolished the biggest waste of real estate and a total failure. Complete stop at intersections is a waste of fuel and brakes. People should be able to roll thru an intersection without completely stopping.
 
Complete stop at intersections is a waste of fuel and brakes. People should be able to roll thru an intersection without completely stopping.
This is why I believe that ALL traffic lights should be replaced by roundabouts. So much better.
 
This is why I believe that ALL traffic lights should be replaced by roundabouts. So much better.

Who would pay to change every one of them? Since 4-way stops take less room than roundabouts how would abutting landowners be compensated? How much would be payed to them? If they refused to sell would eminent domain be applied to take the necessary space?
 
Who would pay to change every one of them? Since 4-way stops take less room than roundabouts how would abutting landowners be compensated? How much would be payed to them? If they refused to sell would eminent domain be applied to take the necessary space?
Yes, it would initially cost taxpayer money to build them all. However, it would save A LOT of money in the long-run and alleviate almost all traffic problems. Four-way stops are inefficient because:

1. There is idle time
2. If you're all alone at a four-way stop, you still must stop
3. The person to the right of you has the right of way. If there are four people at the stop, everyone (and no one) has the right of way. Too confusing and causes too many problems.
4. Idle time
5. Idle time
6. Idle time

And obviously you could not use eminent domain to force roundabouts in. But in the places where it wouldn't be needed? Yes, we'd be smart to invest in them.
 
Yes, it would initially cost taxpayer money to build them all. However, it would save A LOT of money in the long-run and alleviate almost all traffic problems. Four-way stops are inefficient because:

1. There is idle time
2. If you're all alone at a four-way stop, you still must stop
3. The person to the right of you has the right of way. If there are four people at the stop, everyone (and no one) has the right of way. Too confusing and causes too many problems.
4. Idle time
5. Idle time
6. Idle time

And obviously you could not use eminent domain to force roundabouts in. But in the places where it wouldn't be needed? Yes, we'd be smart to invest in them.

So, more strong arm collections? Let me know when you can push this. All I would need is the last 1/100,000 of the pie on several intersections to retire.
 
So, more strong arm collections? Let me know when you can push this. All I would need is the last 1/100,000 of the pie on several intersections to retire.
No, I'm all for cutting out government spending and decreasing taxes. But the remaining tax money could go to something useful, like replacing high cost, inefficient lights with cheap, efficient roundabouts. Again, it would obviously cost money now, but so does endless road construction and ridiculous idle time at lights. Roundabouts save money in the long run. Taxpayer money that can be spent elsewhere, and gas money that can be spent elsewhere.

Here's how I see it:

The government either taxes the shit out of people to repair every intersection and road every 2-3 years or less and people waste a lot of money on gas because of long idle times at lights

or

We can invest in roundabouts now, people idle less and save gas money, there's significantly less traffic, and roundabouts don't need to be repaired every 2-3 years
 
No, I'm all for cutting out government spending and decreasing taxes. But the remaining tax money could go to something useful, like replacing high cost, inefficient lights with cheap, efficient roundabouts. Again, it would obviously cost money now, but so does endless road construction and ridiculous idle time at lights. Roundabouts save money in the long run. Taxpayer money that can be spent elsewhere, and gas money that can be spent elsewhere.

Here's how I see it:

The government either taxes the shit out of people to repair every intersection and road every 2-3 years or less and people waste a lot of money on gas because of long idle times at lights

or

We can invest in roundabouts now, people idle less and save gas money, there's significantly less traffic, and roundabouts don't need to be repaired every 2-3 years

If you really believe in this cause then the people to approach are the corner holders. McDonalds, Burger King, Arby's, Wendy's, 7-11, Shell, Exxon etc. I'm sure they would be more than happy to sell a slice of their parking lot and they would have the corporate big bucks to pad some politicians accounts. Congrats. You've just found your niche.
 
I have been testing the "libertarian waters" around here by posing a statement to people that like to say "there should be a law....". Even though my opinion goes much farther than this, it is a good starting point.

After I politely listen to their opinions I work in the statement "I think drinking WHILE driving should be legal". After they freak out for a minute, I remind them that driving while drunk is reckless driving and that is already illegal. Also I will say that even though the police say that they DO NOT, we all know that the police profile and would pull you over to find out if you are drunk if they see you drinking while driving. Most people will think about it for a while then agree. Then I continue to plant other pieces of ideas that they agree with that will later bring them back to a libertarian mindset and wait for the time to come to bring it back up. Works great.

Also I have found that the "neocon inclined" are the ones who argue the most with me about drinking and driving to which I bring back the idea of precrime but this time using guns as an example instead of cars to which they almost always agree, then usually agree with me about the drinking while driving point.
Its a start and I love when some of these people come back to me explaining my arguement to them as their own opinion.

Liberty is contagious!!

Side note: My grandfather, uncle, many friends, and countless classmates have all been killed by drunk drivers. I don't want drunks driving, just the liberty to make dumb decisions and the accountability that comes with it.
 


They also have A LOT more traffic fatalities. An immigrant friend of mine once quipped, "India has the best drivers in the world! All the bad drivers are dead."

I support private roads, and I would personally only drive on roads with strict limitations in which a private bouncer kicked the riff-raff off the line. I would expect to pay a higher toll, like a country club for drivers.
 
I think that they should be simply...suggestions.

What crime is committed by driving fast? You're not hurting anyone, you're not damaging anyone's property you're not committing theft, nor are you committing fraud or breaching a contract. Speeding (and drunk driving and traffic laws in general) are not legitimate crimes.

This "pre-crime" shit needs to stop. Until a speeding/drunk driver actually does hurt someone/hit something, what have they really done wrong? Many fast drivers are great drivers. Many drunk drivers are great drivers. Many sobers drivers are terrible drivers. If people were really concerned with safety, they'd want Asians, old people, teens, and women off the road.

But...but...but...they didn't do anything! Why should they not be allowed to drive?

Well, why shouldn't drunk people and fast drivers not be allowed to drive freely? Until they actually commit a crime, what harm is done?

I can't be sure, but if I recall correctly, there is a correlation between lower speed limits and more accidents. Think we need speed limits? Look at the Autobahn.

What do you guys think? Am I the only one that believes traffic laws are essentially pre-crimes?

I almost always agree with you.

The only exception I can maybe think of is a developmental community where kids are likely to be playing off the street. I could understand people not wanting other people to be driving 50+ in that kind of an environment. But few, if any, people actually do that. While people rarely have much in the way of logic, they usually do have some common sense.

Even in a city, where there is a lot of traffic, its going to be safe to drive faster at 3 AM than 3 PM. In most cases, the skill of the driver makes a difference as well.

So, yes, I pretty much agree with you. Although ultimately, I don't think roads should be government-owned. So in the community example that I mention, its likely that the road ownership would be shared among the people in the community, so those kinds of regulations would be set (if necessary) by the owners and not the government. Highways, on the other hand, should be owned (And built, if any more are needed) by private entrepreneurs.
 
No, I'm all for cutting out government spending and decreasing taxes. But the remaining tax money could go to something useful, like replacing high cost, inefficient lights with cheap, efficient roundabouts. Again, it would obviously cost money now, but so does endless road construction and ridiculous idle time at lights. Roundabouts save money in the long run. Taxpayer money that can be spent elsewhere, and gas money that can be spent elsewhere.

Here's how I see it:

The government either taxes the shit out of people to repair every intersection and road every 2-3 years or less and people waste a lot of money on gas because of long idle times at lights

or

We can invest in roundabouts now, people idle less and save gas money, there's significantly less traffic, and roundabouts don't need to be repaired every 2-3 years

I'm also a big fan of roundabouts. They save time, fuel, electricity, and there is no speeding through a roundabout. You either slow down for the corner, or you pile up on the centerpiece.
 
I have been testing the "libertarian waters" around here by posing a statement to people that like to say "there should be a law....". Even though my opinion goes much farther than this, it is a good starting point.

After I politely listen to their opinions I work in the statement "I think drinking WHILE driving should be legal". After they freak out for a minute, I remind them that driving while drunk is reckless driving and that is already illegal. Also I will say that even though the police say that they DO NOT, we all know that the police profile and would pull you over to find out if you are drunk if they see you drinking while driving. Most people will think about it for a while then agree. Then I continue to plant other pieces of ideas that they agree with that will later bring them back to a libertarian mindset and wait for the time to come to bring it back up. Works great.

Also I have found that the "neocon inclined" are the ones who argue the most with me about drinking and driving to which I bring back the idea of precrime but this time using guns as an example instead of cars to which they almost always agree, then usually agree with me about the drinking while driving point.
Its a start and I love when some of these people come back to me explaining my arguement to them as their own opinion.

Liberty is contagious!!

Side note: My grandfather, uncle, many friends, and countless classmates have all been killed by drunk drivers. I don't want drunks driving, just the liberty to make dumb decisions and the accountability that comes with it.

If all that happened to you and you're still on our side, you are truly a libertarian. Thumbs up, +rep, good job.
 
This is why I believe that ALL traffic lights should be replaced by roundabouts. So much better.

Roundabouts get aggravating once you have two lanes, IMO.

With that being said, as I said, I support private roads. I oppose theft. I support private property rights. That's what I'll insist on. Everything else is up to the market.
 
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