What could happen if Ron Paul doesn't win -- why it's so important that he does

[user]

He's already done that

 

[Man from La Mancha]

All it takes is Bush declaring martial law


but I don't think the military would act against the people

Any recent or current police or military men have any take on this, would your friends in those fields go against the US people?

.

 

[DirectDemocracy]

Leaving the US

(I feel strongly enough about it that I recently moved to New Zealand)

Can you give me more info about moving out of the U.S. and people who have already done it. I was thinking of either a Iceland, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, or New Zealand.

Do you know or have you heard of other Americans that have moved out of this country and why?

And also do you know when people have done it? The past 100 years? past 20 years? since 9/11? past few years?

 

[Jordan]

It's a lot worse than that if Ron Paul doesn't win. Our entire economy and currency could collapse like the Great Depression. When a country lives on debt for too long, the bills eventually come due and there's a serious correction. Many countries know what it's like to have runaway inflation and runaway currency devaluation. It's not pretty. People must wake up before it's too late.

Yep. If he loses, I'm going to 100% silver.

 

[RonPaulMania]

what is all this talk of moving to other countries... do you not remember your forefathers that DIED for there freedoms and yours... your great uncles and grandfathers DIED, stop being such wimps. SHAPE UP MEN. THERE IS A REVOLUTION. and we are trying to get it solved peacefully.

Our forefathers left their country because they wanted more freedom. They only went to arms when they were being taxed without representation and wanted a bigger market share of trade. Essentially they fought over self-government and money, not freedom. When freedom was an issue they left. You don't fight city hall and win, eventually you lose and it takes common sense to know that one man can't make that much of a difference without a lot of other men behind him.

 

[RonPaulVolunteer]

MHO, we're pretty close to living under a dictatorship, in a country that's already socialist and is getting more so each day (I feel strongly enough about it that I recently moved to New Zealand).

Umm... are you telling the truth? I moved to the USA FROM NZ 18 months ago because NZ is FAR more marxist/socialist than America could ever dream of being.

Not sure what's up with that.
.
.

 

[leonster]

Can you give me more info about moving out of the U.S. and people who have already done it. I was thinking of either a Iceland, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, or New Zealand.

Do you know or have you heard of other Americans that have moved out of this country and why?

And also do you know when people have done it? The past 100 years? past 20 years? since 9/11? past few years?

I'm in Korea now... not permanently, but I probably will never move back to the US. Getting married and moving to Canada, is the plan...

But you know what... coming to Korea opened my eyes. It's honestly more free and libertarian in everyday life here... it's refreshing. Government stays out of your life basically. Oh there's a little red tape and paperwork here and there, but on an everyday level (and when going through immigration etc.) it's just a totally different, more free place.

Income tax is around 4.5% for most people, and the infrastructure progress here is AMAZING compared to the US. And they have a strong military, too. Amazing what limited tax dollars can do when they're not wasted on bloated bureaucracies. As a foreigner though, I currently pay 0 income taxes. There's a 3% tax for national medical insurance, which I'm not a fan of but again, without bloat, 3% goes a long way... and there's a 4.5% for national pension plan, matched by 4.5% from your employer--but as a foreigner, when you leave Korea you get 100% of it refunded as a lump sum payment to you, with interest. And the Korean won (money) keeps rising against the dollar... 5 years ago it was about 1300 won - 1 dollar, now about 900 won - 1 dollar.

To summarize on taxes--most Koreans pay about 12% in taxes (16.5 if you count employer matching) and get more benefits than Americans do. I pay 3%, personally.

Did I also mention... my employer pays for my housing? Not a government thing but... it's a good life at the moment, financially. And everyday freedom-wise.


Edit: Canada is going to SUCK, on taxes, by the way. I realize that, but we're moving for other reasons. And not to America--many reasons, but many related to the past 6 years there, yeah...

 

[Teenforpaul08]

Ron Paul does really seem like a last hope...

Off Topic: I would love to visit and retire in New Zealand. It looks stunning!

 

[wgadget]

Tell me about it....Today our signwaving was canceled by the gestapo (police).

 

[koob]

two words: national healthcare.

 

[bootstrap]

leave for individual liberty

I had already made specific plans to leave the USSA next spring before I learned Ron Paul was running for president and may have a tiny but non-zero chance to win (due to great supporters). I urge everyone who is serious about individual liberty to leave the USSA as soon as possible - the moment it becomes clear RP will not win. And do everything possible to help him win until that day.

The USSA will almost certainly become some twisted, mutated, horrific form of elistist-fascist-statist-authoritarian banana republic with 20,000~50,000 nukes. And worst of all, anyone who favors individualism or freedom will likely become the modern version of jews in nazi germany or japanese-americans during WW2. Which means, "get the hell out at all costs", before they force national ID cards, implant RFID-identifiers-locaters, and lock you away for your pro-american views (which are inherently "anti-patriot-act" per their orwellian bogus-speak).

We have all been sold out by the vast majority of the last several generations of americans (in name but not principles). Those of us who have confidently and fearlessly identified elitism-fascism-statism-authoritarianism trends since we were [practically] toddlers know what happened, and doubt any salvation is possible at this far-too-late-date. But hey, one last try, since RP is such a gem. Right?

BTW, have most people seen the pole that was taken recently, that shocked the polsters to learn 10% of americans are considering moving out of the USSA, and 2% are definitely leaving. In other words, the rate of exit has almost reached the rate of illegal immigration, and the exit trend is growing much faster!

I did a lot of reading, research, investigation and talking with some people who have already left the USSA. By far the biggest complaint (but rarely "regret") is the lower level of "convenience" in the countries they moved to. But 95% are very happy they chose to leave, and about 3% say they lost as much as gained. Somewhat more than 3% return to the USSA, including some who do not want to return, but return due to issues/problems related to family/relatives who remained here.

One possibly not-obvious result of my investigations. Though you certainly want to choose between reasonably free countries, you almost certainly should make your choice of coutries based upon factors *other than* their "freedom index" (assuming all the countries on your list have plausible freedom indices). Why?

The most important two reasons are these (for most people). #1: Living in a physical environment you enjoy almost always influences happiness most of all. If you hate humidity and love mountains or skiiing, don't move to Panama just because they have a low cost of living and great bank privacy and a high freedom index. Better to move to Australia, Argentina, Peru or one of many other choices. If you are not particularly social, don't necessarily restrict yourself to countries where your native language is spoken by [most] everyone. And so forth along these lines in 1000 different ways. #2: You can massively improve the actual practical degree of individualism and freedom you experience by moving far away from population centers. Though you can sometimes find nasty places in the boonies, more often people are inherently kind, honest, friendly, helpful, straightforward and individualist-leaning in proportion to their distance from "civilization". In other words, the further you are from "civilization", the more "civil" you will usually find people. This does, of course, assume you are not an arrogant, abrasive "ugly american" (in which case you deserve to be disliked). As it turns out, many countries in south america fit well into this template. If you move into the extreme boonies in Ecuador, Peru, Argentina, Uraguay, Chile and probably 2 or 3 other south american countries, you will find the people shockingly honest and wonderful neighbors. One fellow I talked to for several hours had traveled for 6 months in south america (mostly Ecuador/Peru/Argentina), and he told me it was utterly mind boggling how wonderfully he was treated by every single person in the high Andes far away from population centers. One example he told me that made him flush in embarrasment even a year after he returned. He accidentally left his digital camera in a small village somewhere in the high Andes in Ecuador, where the people are so extremely, extremely poor that many of them had never had a penny (in any currency) in their entire lives. Two days after he left the town, 200 to 250 miles away while hiking up a tall mountain (plenty of those in the high Andes), he noticed somebody on another ridge about a mile away waving his yellow poncho to get his attention. The guy hiked several thousand feet down into a gulch, across a stream, and up the near ridge to finally reach him. When the fellow finally arrived, he recognized the poor bastard as a man from the village 200~250 miles away. He was baffled until the guy proudly and obviously thrilled took his $200 digital camera out of his bag and returned it to him. No matter how hard he tried --- and he went to as extreme lengths as he could without becoming ugly himself, as he described it to me --- he could not get the man to accept any money or physical token of his appreciation. The poor guy even felt uncomfortable to receive more than the most minimal of verbal thanks! He would not even accept offers of food or snacks before he left to return home.

What totally blew me off my feet was the final chapter. The traveler passed through the fellows mountain village about 2 months later, and went to find him. He was out gathering or hunting food, but his family convinced him to stay and have dinner with them while they waited for him to return sometime after dark. His family too would not accept any physical reward or thanks or gift, even though they had just fed him dinner with their family. During dinner, the traveler chatted with his family, and learned the man had never been more than 20~30 miles from his home in his entire 50 years of life before he somehow miraculously tracked him down 200~250 miles from his home to return the camera! Turns out, it had been the adventure of his life! By the time he finished recounting his experience to me, the travelers voice was cracking and his eyes were a river of tears. When I asked him if he could even imagine *any* american, even one, behaving the same way, he could only turn away embarrased as he "lost it". I must admit, just listening to his story got me too.

How'd you like to have neighbors like that? What would you do if GWBush decided to move into your (and his) mountain village some day? Think about it. I plan to move even if RP wins the nomination and election. I am virtually certain that even RP probably cannot turn the uncivilized habits of enough people around in this USSA... the point of no return was almost certainly passed years ago.

 

[LibertiORDeth]

Did you seriously move to New Zealand?

 

[hawkeyenick]

I'm moving to either England or Australia, maybe even Switzerland or the Netherlands if they don't straighten out either

 

[user]

I had already made specific plans to leave the USSA next spring before I learned Ron Paul was running for president and may have a tiny but non-zero chance to win (due to great supporters). I urge everyone who is serious about individual liberty to leave the USSA as soon as possible - the moment it becomes clear RP will not win. And do everything possible to help him win until that day.

The USSA will almost certainly become some twisted, mutated, horrific form of elistist-fascist-statist-authoritarian banana republic with 20,000~50,000 nukes. And worst of all, anyone who favors individualism or freedom will likely become the modern version of jews in nazi germany or japanese-americans during WW2. Which means, "get the hell out at all costs", before they force national ID cards, implant RFID-identifiers-locaters, and lock you away for your pro-american views (which are inherently "anti-patriot-act" per their orwellian bogus-speak).

We have all been sold out by the vast majority of the last several generations of americans (in name but not principles). Those of us who have confidently and fearlessly identified elitism-fascism-statism-authoritarianism trends since we were [practically] toddlers know what happened, and doubt any salvation is possible at this far-too-late-date. But hey, one last try, since RP is such a gem. Right?

BTW, have most people seen the pole that was taken recently, that shocked the polsters to learn 10% of americans are considering moving out of the USSA, and 2% are definitely leaving. In other words, the rate of exit has almost reached the rate of illegal immigration, and the exit trend is growing much faster!

I did a lot of reading, research, investigation and talking with some people who have already left the USSA. By far the biggest complaint (but rarely "regret") is the lower level of "convenience" in the countries they moved to. But 95% are very happy they chose to leave, and about 3% say they lost as much as gained. Somewhat more than 3% return to the USSA, including some who do not want to return, but return due to issues/problems related to family/relatives who remained here.

One possibly not-obvious result of my investigations. Though you certainly want to choose between reasonably free countries, you almost certainly should make your choice of coutries based upon factors *other than* their "freedom index" (assuming all the countries on your list have plausible freedom indices). Why?

The most important two reasons are these (for most people). #1: Living in a physical environment you enjoy almost always influences happiness most of all. If you hate humidity and love mountains or skiiing, don't move to Panama just because they have a low cost of living and great bank privacy and a high freedom index. Better to move to Australia, Argentina, Peru or one of many other choices. If you are not particularly social, don't necessarily restrict yourself to countries where your native language is spoken by [most] everyone. And so forth along these lines in 1000 different ways. #2: You can massively improve the actual practical degree of individualism and freedom you experience by moving far away from population centers. Though you can sometimes find nasty places in the boonies, more often people are inherently kind, honest, friendly, helpful, straightforward and individualist-leaning in proportion to their distance from "civilization". In other words, the further you are from "civilization", the more "civil" you will usually find people. This does, of course, assume you are not an arrogant, abrasive "ugly american" (in which case you deserve to be disliked). As it turns out, many countries in south america fit well into this template. If you move into the extreme boonies in Ecuador, Peru, Argentina, Uraguay, Chile and probably 2 or 3 other south american countries, you will find the people shockingly honest and wonderful neighbors. One fellow I talked to for several hours had traveled for 6 months in south america (mostly Ecuador/Peru/Argentina), and he told me it was utterly mind boggling how wonderfully he was treated by every single person in the high Andes far away from population centers. One example he told me that made him flush in embarrasment even a year after he returned. He accidentally left his digital camera in a small village somewhere in the high Andes in Ecuador, where the people are so extremely, extremely poor that many of them had never had a penny (in any currency) in their entire lives. Two days after he left the town, 200 to 250 miles away while hiking up a tall mountain (plenty of those in the high Andes), he noticed somebody on another ridge about a mile away waving his yellow poncho to get his attention. The guy hiked several thousand feet down into a gulch, across a stream, and up the near ridge to finally reach him. When the fellow finally arrived, he recognized the poor bastard as a man from the village 200~250 miles away. He was baffled until the guy proudly and obviously thrilled took his $200 digital camera out of his bag and returned it to him. No matter how hard he tried --- and he went to as extreme lengths as he could without becoming ugly himself, as he described it to me --- he could not get the man to accept any money or physical token of his appreciation. The poor guy even felt uncomfortable to receive more than the most minimal of verbal thanks! He would not even accept offers of food or snacks before he left to return home.

What totally blew me off my feet was the final chapter. The traveler passed through the fellows mountain village about 2 months later, and went to find him. He was out gathering or hunting food, but his family convinced him to stay and have dinner with them while they waited for him to return sometime after dark. His family too would not accept any physical reward or thanks or gift, even though they had just fed him dinner with their family. During dinner, the traveler chatted with his family, and learned the man had never been more than 20~30 miles from his home in his entire 50 years of life before he somehow miraculously tracked him down 200~250 miles from his home to return the camera! Turns out, it had been the adventure of his life! By the time he finished recounting his experience to me, the travelers voice was cracking and his eyes were a river of tears. When I asked him if he could even imagine *any* american, even one, behaving the same way, he could only turn away embarrased as he "lost it". I must admit, just listening to his story got me too.

How'd you like to have neighbors like that? What would you do if GWBush decided to move into your (and his) mountain village some day? Think about it. I plan to move even if RP wins the nomination and election. I am virtually certain that even RP probably cannot turn the uncivilized habits of enough people around in this USSA... the point of no return was almost certainly passed years ago.

What a great story bootstrap, thanks for posting it!

 

[Richie]

Things will indeed get much worse if Ron Paul isn't elected. Has anybody considered joining the Free State Project and moving to New Hampshire before completely abandoning ship? I will confess - New Zealand and Switzerland (Switzerland in particular) sound like amazing places to live, but we'll still have a little time after the primary elections. How about a coordinated effort to get Ron Paul Republicans elected to Congress?

 

[user]

Things will indeed get much worse if Ron Paul isn't elected. Has anybody considered joining the Free State Project and moving to New Hampshire before completely abandoning ship? I will confess - New Zealand and Switzerland (Switzerland in particular) sound like amazing places to live, but we'll still have a little time after the primary elections. How about a coordinated effort to get Ron Paul Republicans elected to Congress?

Switzerland is going downhill. The unfortunate reality is that there really is no free country in the world right now.

 

[Zeeder]

Don't move to another country. Move to New Hampshire. Elect 2 senators, and several congressmen. The Senator position would be a springboard to the Presidency. THAT"S how we win. It doesn't stop with Ron paul.
We know now how powerful we can be. With the money we raised so far this quarter alone, we could fund several senate campaigns.


Actually, if we stay together(win or lose). It is my belief that 200,000$ plus Ron Paul grassroots would give us a chance at a senate seat.

I think we could take 10 senate seats in the senate with the money we raised this quarter. That might as well be control of the senate. We need to think like this. And we can do this by taking over the Republican party. We've shown that in straw polls and in the west virginia delegates thingy.

Right now Ron paul can win, and that's all I think about.

 

[Meatwasp]

I feel like a captain of a ship and I will stay to the bitter end. It is my country and it will turn around again

 

[Christopher David]

Good thing our founding fathers didn't cut and run when faced with tyranny.

 

[Voice]

When the nations of the world have the last free communication network, the Internet, blocked, there is one last thing that can be done. It will take someone a hell of a lot smarteer than me, but what is needed is a general mesh communication device that has these attributes:

Cheap, fast, and easy to make

Robust

Creates a mesh network over encrypted wireless protocols

Connects to any computer through a standard cable

Communicates with its neighbors

Passes on all communication to its destination regardless of distance

Completely scalable (from two to infinite devices)

Can communicate across other devices, such as hooking up 50 of them on each side of a wide pipe to cross the ocean

This will be the only remaining bastion of free communications when the internet is controlled.