We Urgently Need To Revert To Classical Economics

[Roy L]

And slavery is as old as civilization. Therefore, civilization cannot exist without slavery. Ditto for subjugation of women.

??? Huh? There are civilizations NOW that DON'T have slavery or subjugation of women.

Give your head a shake.

There has never been a civilization that didn't have taxes. Never.

Fail.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

??? Huh? There are civilizations NOW that DON'T have slavery or subjugation of women.

Give your head a shake.

There has never been a civilization that didn't have taxes. Never.

Fail.

Therefore, taxation is justified. Of course.

Fail. That's what you get when you rely on immoral precedent.

 

[erowe1]

True. But clay tablets from Lagash dating back to nearly 6000 BC have been interpreted as tax records:

https://secure.sauder.ubc.ca/re_creditprogram/course.../carlson.pdf

That link isn't working for me. Do you have another? I'm skeptical about there being any clay tablets that old.

 

[Len Larson]

I thought I was merely wasting my time replying in this thread, but now I feel dirty for helping RoyL achieve climax with his masochistic LVT fetish.

If RoyL truly believes civilization is merely a product of taxes and govt. (or should I say his refusal to admit his knowledge to the contrary ), then I fear there is nothing we can say that will reach him. We can only hope his life experiences in the future will afford him an opportunity to grow. Daisies would be the best I think.

Welcome to my ignore list. EcoWarrier [sic] too.

 

[GeorgiaAvenger]

George Orwell double speak.

Pay your rent and you will have property freedom.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Technically incorrect. He is right that theft is a sin. Those who appropriate land for exploitation of others. I am not religeous but to those who are:

Leviticus 25:23-24 - The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.

Definition of re·demp·tion (r-dmpshn)

1. The act of redeeming or the condition of having been redeemed.
2. Recovery of something pawned or mortgaged.
3. The payment of an obligation.

Leviticus 25:23
“The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine. For you are strangers and sojourners with me."

So, the Bible is fully inline with Geonomics. The land occupier must give payment of an obligation.

I am agnostic and have no bias in regards to the Bible. I would have to agree the Bible is very right on this issue of land, which gives me some respect for the Bible. There are so many people who claim to have faith in the Bible who do not have faith in what the Bible teaches.

This is one of the ways the old (Mosaic) law was flawed. Hence the need for a proper interpretation by Yeshua. gtg for now, but I'll be back later.

 

[Roy L]

Therefore, taxation is justified. Of course.

It's justified by the ultimate justification: evolutionary success. Civilization beats no civilization. Societies with taxes beat societies without taxes. Claims that taxes are immoral per se therefore fail immediately because morality has no meaning other than as an expression of what makes societies succeed or fail.

 

[erowe1]

morality has no meaning other than as an expression of what makes societies succeed or fail.

Succeed or fail at what?

 

[Roy L]

I thought I was merely wasting my time replying in this thread, but now I feel dirty for helping RoyL achieve climax with his masochistic LVT fetish.

Filth beneath contempt. As expected.

If RoyL truly believes civilization is merely a product of taxes and govt.

You again prove that you have to lie about what I have plainly written. Taxes and government are necessary but not sufficient conditions for civilization.

(or should I say his refusal to admit his knowledge to the contrary ), then I fear there is nothing we can say that will reach him.

You won't reach me by lying about what I have plainly written, that's for sure.

But then, you can't do anything else, can you? Once you choose to serve evil, you have no choice but to lie.

Welcome to my ignore list. EcoWarrier [sic] too.

I'm sure we're in good company.

 

[Roy L]

Succeed or fail at what?

Existence, growth, reproduction. The usual evolutionary criteria.

 

[Roy L]

George Orwell double speak.

Lie.

Pay your rent and you will have property freedom.

"Property freedom"??? What might that be? The "freedom" of slaves to be property, perhaps...? Or their "freedom" to buy their own liberty from their owners? Crusoe's "freedom" to point his musket in Friday's face and give him a choice between permanent servitude and getting back in the water? The caravan merchants' freedom to choose which pass to use, and thus which bandit to pay off?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Roy L]

That link isn't working for me. Do you have another? I'm skeptical about there being any clay tablets that old.

Sorry, the "secure" prefix should have tipped me off. Here:

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0899taxrel.htm

This one says it was 6Ky BP, not BCE, so roughly 4K BCE. There are multiple sources for the former date, so the 6K BCE seems to have been an error in transcription. In any case, virtually the oldest recorded writing found anywhere consists of tax records. That speaks volumes for the relationship between taxes and civilization.

 

[GeorgiaAvenger]

"Property freedom"??? What might that be? The "freedom" of slaves to be property, perhaps...? Or their "freedom" to buy their own liberty from their owners? Crusoe's "freedom" to point his musket in Friday's face and give him a choice between permanent servitude and getting back in the water? The caravan merchants' freedom to choose which pass to use, and thus which bandit to pay off?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Nobody is a slave if they have the right to own property.

Turning somebody away from a free lunch is not slavery.

As you emphasize "evolutionary process", the process is for humans to claim land and own it. They do.

Mother Earth has no voice. The idea that land must be shared is not fact, it is fantasy.

 

[erowe1]

Existence, growth, reproduction. The usual evolutionary criteria.

How do those things indicate ought and not just is?

Also, aren't all those things present in all societies, including those without whatever hallmarks you might be using to classify certain societies as "civilizations"?

 

[Gumba of Liberty]

It's justified by the ultimate justification: evolutionary success. Civilization beats no civilization. Societies with taxes beat societies without taxes. Claims that taxes are immoral per se therefore fail immediately because morality has no meaning other than as an expression of what makes societies succeed or fail.

HAHAHAHA. Alright Buddy. This sounds so familiar.

 

[Gumba of Liberty]

It's justified by the ultimate justification: evolutionary success. Civilization beats no civilization. Societies with taxes beat societies without taxes. Claims that taxes are immoral per se therefore fail immediately because morality has no meaning other than as an expression of what makes societies succeed or fail.

So if The 3rd Reich had succeeded and lead the world in science and engineering, would it have been morally right? This is nothing more than utilitarian, B.S. There is a Right and a Wrong. You learn it as a kid. Don't hit, don't steal, don't lie, and don't kill. Those actions are universally wrong in all societies and all spheres of human life, except for government which breaks all the rules and is therefore immoral.

 

[WilliamShrugged]

"Property freedom"??? What might that be? The "freedom" of slaves to be property, perhaps...? Or their "freedom" to buy their own liberty from their owners? Crusoe's "freedom" to point his musket in Friday's face and give him a choice between permanent servitude and getting back in the water? The caravan merchants' freedom to choose which pass to use, and thus which bandit to pay off?

Inquiring minds want to know.

I think that he was mocking you in that line...

I think you missed something with this little property freedom rant. Owning or forcing of a slave itself is a violation of property (individual owns himself therefore not a slave). Crusoe also would be violating Friday's property (himself). So if you have a society that follows some system of rules (whether that's voluntarism or a government) property should be protected. Sadly governments (thanks to ideologies like yourself) care very little about protection of individual property. Personally, i would have more trust in a voluntarist society filled with many others that follow NAP. Know that that still doesn't prevent violations 100%. I also have the power to protect myself further (multiple ways).

 

[GeorgiaAvenger]

http://archive.mises.org/1610/murray-rothbard-and-henry-george/

 

[EcoWarrier]

It's not a service if it's forced upon individuals. In that case it's exploitation/slavery.

Well you are saying we are slaves right now. LVT is TAX SHIFT. IT takes tax from where it should be taken, not from individuals wages. All else stays the same. It takes wealth that is commonly created for common services. Private wealth stays private - untouched.

It is very simple.

LVT is NOT a tax. It reclaims commonly created wealth for common purposes. It is very simple.

You are some sort of anarchist, which is sad. Common services have to be funded. LVT reclaims the funds from the right place. Geoism reclaims wealth from land's resources as well and also Pigovian taxes.

Your idea of a world is Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[EcoWarrier]

Just deserts my ass - the rallying cries of class warfare statist-collectivist mass murderers like Stalin, Mao and Polpot (with whom I have you grouped).

Do you have Roy grouped with Cyberman as well?

Wow! A tax shift is Stalinism. You learn every day