"We can't find qualified employees"

[malkusm]

Haven't read the whole thread, but thought I'd share my experience:

I work at a very small niche financial shop - small enough that you don't have one of these "screens". I started as an intern and eventually became full time. We hire interns every semester, mostly grad students since the work is technically detailed. Typically, about 99% of our applicants are foreign exchange students. Maybe that's the lay of the land these days in finance in New York, and atypical of other places and industries...but that's been my experience.

Most of my friends in grad school who were American citizens had internships and job prospects lined up - most of the exchange students, not so much.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Haven't read the whole thread, but thought I'd share my experience:

I work at a very small niche financial shop - small enough that you don't have one of these "screens". I started as an intern and eventually became full time. We hire interns every semester, mostly grad students since the work is technically detailed.

Yeah, that's the right way to do it. Every industry is different, and niches within industries can be radically different.

 

[furface]

Then there's the flip side of this issue where people with BS quals and experience think they're "over qualified."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/10/business/forced-to-retire-early-jobless-pay-a-steep-price.html

She has nearly three decades of experience in the United States. She has managed offices, arranged visits by foreign dignitaries, composed employee handbooks and finessed demanding bosses. She said she had also run errands for movie producers, organized home offices and coordinated the administrative details of a drug study.

Those years of experience now work against her, she thinks. “I’m overly qualified, overly skilled,” she said.

A go-for for an old timey ad agency? Overly skilled? Honey, you aren't even skilled enough to know what real skills are. Cook up a bit of javascript code and maybe you'll get a job.

The article is interesting because it mentions that younger people have an easier time finding new jobs after they're laid off. Is it because there's ageist discrimination or because younger people are more flexible and more realistic about how valuable their experience is? It could also mean that younger people have a more relevant skill set. They know how to work with technology instead of just "finessing demanding bosses."

A friend of mine is in his mid 50s and is an out of work surveyor in Nevada. I suggested to him that we start a business in Northern CA. His reply was essentially that all he needed was 60k per year doing something that didn't require too much work and didn't require him to learn a new skill. I think there are a lot of old farts like him. Inflexibility goes both ways.

I work at a very small niche financial shop - small enough that you don't have one of these "screens". I started as an intern and eventually became full time. We hire interns every semester, mostly grad students since the work is technically detailed.

My view is that most of the technical work finance firms do is obfuscation. I suppose it's a skill to a certain degree. Sophisticated software algorithms and risk analysis software certainly haven't stopped large scale financial loses for the people who use them. I'll take a guy with experience running a corner grocer over an economics PhD to manage my money any day of the week.

The point in bringing it up is that this is actually a very good example of a situation that needs a certain set of titles as opposed to actual qualifications. A lot of our economy is based on putting up facades, so you need the quirky little quals to keep things pretty.

 

[tttppp]

Then there's the flip side of this issue where people with BS quals and experience think they're "over qualified."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/10/business/forced-to-retire-early-jobless-pay-a-steep-price.html



A go-for for an old timey ad agency? Overly skilled? Honey, you aren't even skilled enough to know what real skills are. Cook up a bit of javascript code and maybe you'll get a job.

The article is interesting because it mentions that younger people have an easier time finding new jobs after they're laid off. Is it because there's ageist discrimination or because younger people are more flexible and more realistic about how valuable their experience is? It could also mean that younger people have a more relevant skill set. They know how to work with technology instead of just "finessing demanding bosses."

A friend of mine is in his mid 50s and is an out of work surveyor in Nevada. I suggested to him that we start a business in Northern CA. His reply was essentially that all he needed was 60k per year doing something that didn't require too much work and didn't require him to learn a new skill. I think there are a lot of old farts like him. Inflexibility goes both ways.



My view is that most of the technical work finance firms do is obfuscation. I suppose it's a skill to a certain degree. Sophisticated software algorithms and risk analysis software certainly haven't stopped large scale financial loses for the people who use them. I'll take a guy with experience running a corner grocer over an economics PhD to manage my money any day of the week.

The point in bringing it up is that this is actually a very good example of a situation that needs a certain set of titles as opposed to actual qualifications. A lot of our economy is based on putting up facades, so you need the quirky little quals to keep things pretty.

There is definitely discrimination against older people, but I don't think its because they are inflexible or anything like that. My dad who is 60 hasn't been able to find work in his field for years and he's always being passed over for younger people who don't have the training he has had, and these are for jobs that are not willing to train their employees. It would make sense for employers who are not willing to train their employees to hire someone who has already been trained. But they just aren't willing to hire older people. And my father is as flexible as any younger person. He's willing to take lower pay and work more hours. There's just nothing available. Once he hit a certain age, all the jobs went away.

 

[malkusm]

My view is that most of the technical work finance firms do is obfuscation. I suppose it's a skill to a certain degree. Sophisticated software algorithms and risk analysis software certainly haven't stopped large scale financial loses for the people who use them. I'll take a guy with experience running a corner grocer over an economics PhD to manage my money any day of the week.

The point in bringing it up is that this is actually a very good example of a situation that needs a certain set of titles as opposed to actual qualifications. A lot of our economy is based on putting up facades, so you need the quirky little quals to keep things pretty.

Respectfully, you have no idea what you're talking about. The entire financial services industry does not consist of a bunch of PhD quants who program trading software for the biggest 3 or 4 firms who received bailout money.

Is it theoretically possible for someone to be qualified for a position in my line of work without an advanced degree? Sure, it's always possible. But rather than bringing in 100 candidates and giving them all an hour-long statistics and calculus test, we'd prefer to bring in 10 who have degrees in that stuff so that we can focus on things like work ethic, interpersonal skills, etc.

 

[furface]

There is definitely discrimination against older people, but I don't think its because they are inflexible or anything like that

I think you're right. There is discrimination against older people. My view is even something like an internship is a form of age discrimination. Unless they make it clear that they'll intern a 70 year old the same way they will a 20 year old, it's age discrimination.

My point is that the issue is very complex. I think the whole "system" needs to be looked at, challenged, and changed.

That particular story is something you see in the media a lot. It usually involves a 50 or 60 something mid management type with decades of experience doing things that are no longer relevant today, and they think they're over qualified. It still doesn't mean there aren't 60 year olds who face age discrimination because there are. I didn't mean to imply this didn't exist.

But rather than bringing in 100 candidates and giving them all an hour-long statistics and calculus test, we'd prefer to bring in 10 who have degrees in that stuff so that we can focus on things like work ethic, interpersonal skills, etc.

Give me your most complex financial analysis, trading analysis, pricing analysis, or whatever application & I'll train an average skilled person to do it within 2 months. PhD's are paid to make simple things complex & and incorrect things confusing. The part of the job that makes sense is easy to do, however.

I can say this with 100% confidence that you and your associates have absolutely no idea why calculus should be used in financial applications. It's a funny math that an English scholar invented a few centuries ago, and it's been part of the established scientific curriculum ever since, but very few people could tell you what scientific or mathematical basis there is for using it, especially in a field like finance. Newton's original use for calculating things like classical gravitational forces & kinematics is correct, but many modern uses are questionable. Simpler, purely numerical methods almost always work better.

Statistics, yeah probably, but really the mathematical methods that are useful for handling money are like arithmetic, addition & subtraction. A knowledgeable 3rd grader could have outwitted all the geniuses with advanced degrees cooking up funny math to rationalize real estate prices in the late 20 nots.

Look at what's going on in the world today. Everything Wall Street, the Federal Reserve, and similar institutions in Europe touch nowadays sucks. Countries with much simpler systems in Asia, the Middle East, Africa & South America are much more fiscally sound than Europe & America with our fancy pants academic finance.

 

[presence]

A FARSIDE comic:

A huge crowd of blue collar unemployed people wearing hats and t-shirts with their various trades: Carpenter, electrician, plumber, welder, writer, poet, nurse, mechanic, logger, cashier, driver, etc. all protesting outside of a the one remaining place to get a job. The sign on the front door says,

"Help wanted, DRONE FLEET COMMANDER"

In small print:

"Must be qualified in all known trades, hold all known certifications, and have all levels of security clearance."



presence

 

[tttppp]

I think you're right. There is discrimination against older people. My view is even something like an internship is a form of age discrimination. Unless they make it clear that they'll intern a 70 year old the same way they will a 20 year old, it's age discrimination.

My point is that the issue is very complex. I think the whole "system" needs to be looked at, challenged, and changed.

That particular story is something you see in the media a lot. It usually involves a 50 or 60 something mid management type with decades of experience doing things that are no longer relevant today, and they think they're over qualified. It still doesn't mean there aren't 60 year olds who face age discrimination because there are. I didn't mean to imply this didn't exist.



Give me your most complex financial analysis, trading analysis, pricing analysis, or whatever application & I'll train an average skilled person to do it within 2 months. PhD's are paid to make simple things complex & and incorrect things confusing. The part of the job that makes sense is easy to do, however.

I can say this with 100% confidence that you and your associates have absolutely no idea why calculus should be used in financial applications. It's a funny math that an English scholar invented a few centuries ago, and it's been part of the established scientific curriculum ever since, but very few people could tell you what scientific or mathematical basis there is for using it, especially in a field like finance. Newton's original use for calculating things like classical gravitational forces & kinematics is correct, but many modern uses are questionable. Simpler, purely numerical methods almost always work better.

Statistics, yeah probably, but really the mathematical methods that are useful for handling money are like arithmetic, addition & subtraction. A knowledgeable 3rd grader could have outwitted all the geniuses with advanced degrees cooking up funny math to rationalize real estate prices in the late 20 nots.

Look at what's going on in the world today. Everything Wall Street, the Federal Reserve, and similar institutions in Europe touch nowadays sucks. Countries with much simpler systems in Asia, the Middle East, Africa & South America are much more fiscally sound than Europe & America with our fancy pants academic finance.

You're right about PhD's paid to make simple things complex & and incorrect things confusing. Its basically a worthless degree, thats why I never considered getting one.

As far as calculus is concerned, we never used it at all in finance. I don't know what purpose it has for anything anyways. Math made sense to me up until calculus. I'm not sure what the point of that type of math is.

 

[madengr]

You're right about PhD's paid to make simple things complex & and incorrect things confusing. Its basically a worthless degree, thats why I never considered getting one.

As far as calculus is concerned, we never used it at all in finance. I don't know what purpose it has for anything anyways. Math made sense to me up until calculus. I'm not sure what the point of that type of math is.

That's a pretty ignorant statement.

 

[malkusm]

Give me your most complex financial analysis, trading analysis, pricing analysis, or whatever application & I'll train an average skilled person to do it within 2 months. PhD's are paid to make simple things complex & and incorrect things confusing. The part of the job that makes sense is easy to do, however.

I think you're assuming that all of finance is the stock market. What I do has nothing in common with anything you've come into contact with.

Here's a very simple** example of it:

Contract A is a negative variable coupon bond with variable maturity. The maturity of the bond has a probability of P[t] where t is the time period. The average of P[t] is approximately 10 years and the probability is Poisson distributed with shape parameter k = 3. For each period that the bond does not mature, an additional negative coupon must be paid. This coupon is increasing in each period throughout the possible life of the bond.

Want to value this for me, assuming the face value of the bond is $1 million, and that the coupon in year 1 is $3,000, increasing by 2% each year? I'll call in sick to work tomorrow and just let you take care of it.

**Note: I say "very simple" because the coupon amounts are not given in reality; in fact, the writers of these contracts often obfuscate the payment amounts as much as possible, in order to convince contract holders to pay as they are billed, thus smoothing out their expected cash flows.

 

[tttppp]

That's a pretty ignorant statement.

How so? What valuable information do PhD's learn thats not already taught in undergraduate and masters programs?

Calculus is not used in finance. That is a fact.

 

[green73]

As far as calculus is concerned, we never used it at all in finance. I don't know what purpose it has for anything anyways. Math made sense to me up until calculus. I'm not sure what the point of that type of math is.

I'm tempted to put that in my signature.

I love how you spend so much of your time defending your ignorance.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

As far as calculus is concerned, we never used it at all in finance. I don't know what purpose it has for anything anyways. Math made sense to me up until calculus. I'm not sure what the point of that type of math is.

Physics.

 

[green73]

I'm tempted to put that in my signature.

I love how you spend so much of your time defending your ignorance.

LOL you negged me!

Personl insult

 

[MelissaWV]

LOL you negged me!

There's a lot of that going around.

 

[tttppp]

Physics.

Actually a lot of math ignores physics, which is my biggest complaint about math. There is plenty of math that doesn't apply at all to the real world.

 

[green73]

Physics.

This is the same guy that says there's no need to read books to learn libertarianism.

 

[green73]

Actually a lot of math ignores physics, which is my biggest complaint about math. There is plenty of math that doesn't apply at all to the real world.

LOL!

 

[tttppp]

This is the same guy that says there's no need to read books to learn libertarianism.

You're the same guy who thinks not reading libertarian books automatically makes you anti-libertarian and disqualifies you from running for president.

 

[Jordan]

You're right about PhD's paid to make simple things complex & and incorrect things confusing. Its basically a worthless degree, thats why I never considered getting one.

As far as calculus is concerned, we never used it at all in finance. I don't know what purpose it has for anything anyways. Math made sense to me up until calculus. I'm not sure what the point of that type of math is.

First, I totally agree that calculus in a pure form is relatively worthless to finance. So, in the sense that you're expected to find by hand some derivative of some wicked cluster of digits, decimal places, and variables, I totally agree. That's not particularly valuable to a financier. In application, where you're solving some problem or running a model, calculus is incredibly valuable. Actually, I'm 99.999999% sure my calc class started with finding the relationship between revenue, costs, and profits with calculus. That's like calc -100 level.

You were just tricked by context. I was too. I'll be the first to admit that I got clobbered by calc/stats as a standalone science, but in application to financial problems where there was context that I could actually understand, it made perfect sense.