"We can't find qualified employees"

[oyarde]

This. People are easily complacent and naturally lazy.

But I am so good at it

 

[tttppp]

I have noticed this as well. A meal is a great motivator. If the employees know that results are demanded of them, they produce or they leave the company.

Thats a good point. When you put in a system that demands results, most of the employees will produce. Of the employees who don't, a good percentage of them will quit.

 

[MelissaWV]

Thats a good point. When you put in a system that demands results, most of the employees will produce. Of the employees who don't, a good percentage of them will quit.

And in the meantime you have contracts which are not fulfilled. Frankly, you guys are going back and forth with all the motivational buzzwords, but there's no cure for laziness and the "itch" to go on and try something different once what they're doing seems boring.

It all goes downhill even faster when you provide a very specialized service with few professionals to depend on.

 

[tttppp]

And in the meantime you have contracts which are not fulfilled. Frankly, you guys are going back and forth with all the motivational buzzwords, but there's no cure for laziness and the "itch" to go on and try something different once what they're doing seems boring.

It all goes downhill even faster when you provide a very specialized service with few professionals to depend on.

In most of my work, there were no contracts, the employment was at will. So there was nothing guaranteed to the employees if they didn't produce. If they didn't produce, they were replaced by someone who did produce.

Other times when I did have contracts, I made the payments contingent upon them producing something. I have run into issues where there was a dispute. They didn't produce and wanted payment for their lack of work. One time I completely stiffed a guy for various reasons which were all his fault. Another time I renegotiated the price of someone's work. But thats really no different than not having a contract. If you produce, you get paid, if you don't you can try to sue me and explain to the judge why you deserve money for not producing anything.

 

[MelissaWV]

In most of my work, there were no contracts, the employment was at will. So there was nothing guaranteed to the employees if they didn't produce. If they didn't produce, they were replaced by someone who did produce.

Other times when I did have contracts, I made the payments contingent upon them producing something. I have run into issues where there was a dispute. They didn't produce and wanted payment for their lack of work. One time I completely stiffed a guy for various reasons which were all his fault. Another time I renegotiated the price of someone's work. But thats really no different than not having a contract. If you produce, you get paid, if you don't you can try to sue me and explain to the judge why you deserve money for not producing anything.

For someone implying all the stuff you've been implying, you're not reading things through

Contracts = Proof "Sample Novel: A Love Story" within the next two weeks.

Semi-new person: "Pshhh that sounds easy; I'll get it done and get the money and it'll be awesome."
Me: "Okay. I'll forward it to you if the vendor finds it an acceptable swap. I'll provide them with a sample of your previous work as a reference."
Semi-new person: "Excellent!"

*two weeks later*

Vendor: "So we just got an initial run-through from that person you provided references for. It's terrible, and it seems they forgot to proof the last fifty pages or so."
Semi-new person: "Yeah man that book was boring."
Me: "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!"
Vendor: "I don't think we're going to get this proofread in time, which means we're not paying anything. I also don't think we'll be sending you anymore projects since you provided a reference. We just don't have the confidence in you to give you another job."

So, the proofer I helped out by forwarding excess work to has not only cost themselves compensation (they obviously didn't care much), but they cost me as well, and their previous work provided no real indication of their unprofessional manner. This is why, at this point, I simply turn down excess contracts because I'd rather people think I am so busy I cannot help them, which leaves room for them seeking me out when another project comes along.

You keep talking about replacing people who don't produce, with people who do. In my line of work it takes quite some time to realize someone has stopped producing a "quality product." In addition, having a revolving door on these kinds of projects leads to embarrassing errors, and generally taints everyone affiliated with the contract.

I know you seem to find it hard to believe, but it's not everyone else's fault that a worker sucks, and it's not everyone else's job to coddle a lazy person.

I learned my lesson the hard way, but please don't sit there and tell me that there are so many awesome workers (most don't even pass a basic skills test, by the way) and that they are just being mismanaged. It's a line of work where no one manages you.

 

[specsaregood]

For someone implying all the stuff you've been implying, you're not reading things through

Contracts = Proof "Sample Novel: A Love Story" within the next two weeks.

Semi-new person: "Pshhh that sounds easy; I'll get it done and get the money and it'll be awesome."
Me: "Okay. I'll forward it to you if the vendor finds it an acceptable swap. I'll provide them with a sample of your previous work as a reference."
Semi-new person: "Excellent!"

*two weeks later*

Vendor: "So we just got an initial run-through from that person you provided references for. It's terrible, and it seems they forgot to proof the last fifty pages or so."
Semi-new person: "Yeah man that book was boring."
Me: "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!"
Vendor: "I don't think we're going to get this proofread in time, which means we're not paying anything. I also don't think we'll be sending you anymore projects since you provided a reference. We just don't have the confidence in you to give you another job."

So, the proofer I helped out by forwarding excess work to has not only cost themselves compensation (they obviously didn't care much), but they cost me as well, and their previous work provided no real indication of their unprofessional manner. This is why, at this point, I simply turn down excess contracts because I'd rather people think I am so busy I cannot help them, which leaves room for them seeking me out when another project comes along.

You keep talking about replacing people who don't produce, with people who do. In my line of work it takes quite some time to realize someone has stopped producing a "quality product." In addition, having a revolving door on these kinds of projects leads to embarrassing errors, and generally taints everyone affiliated with the contract.

I know you seem to find it hard to believe, but it's not everyone else's fault that a worker sucks, and it's not everyone else's job to coddle a lazy person.

I learned my lesson the hard way, but please don't sit there and tell me that there are so many awesome workers (most don't even pass a basic skills test, by the way) and that they are just being mismanaged. It's a line of work where no one manages you.

been there, done that. been screwed plenty. and you end up doing all the work yourself.

 

[paulbot24]

"We can't find quality employers." - The people

 

[MelissaWV]

been there, done that. been screwed plenty. and you end up doing all the work yourself.

Yeah. Even the money isn't enough to make THAT much work worthwhile for me.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

It depends on what kind of abuse you are talking about. I have never engaged in or witnessed violations of labor law, but there are plenty of stories about people on work visas being told to write less hours on their time cards than they are actually working. For instance, they can only write 40 hours per week but are expected to work 60. The abuses I have witnessed ....

No, you have not seen the kind of stuff I've seen then...and it's not foreign managers...
Put stock-options (new ipo) in front of people, they will eat you alive...

 

[Brian4Liberty]

No, you have not seen the kind of stuff I've seen then...and it's not foreign managers...
Put stock-options (new ipo) in front of people, they will eat you alive...

Lol! Oh yeah, I know exactly what you are talking about. Work 70 hours a week for a potential payoff in the future? I call that gambling.

 

[tttppp]

For someone implying all the stuff you've been implying, you're not reading things through

Contracts = Proof "Sample Novel: A Love Story" within the next two weeks.

Semi-new person: "Pshhh that sounds easy; I'll get it done and get the money and it'll be awesome."
Me: "Okay. I'll forward it to you if the vendor finds it an acceptable swap. I'll provide them with a sample of your previous work as a reference."
Semi-new person: "Excellent!"

*two weeks later*

Vendor: "So we just got an initial run-through from that person you provided references for. It's terrible, and it seems they forgot to proof the last fifty pages or so."
Semi-new person: "Yeah man that book was boring."
Me: "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!"
Vendor: "I don't think we're going to get this proofread in time, which means we're not paying anything. I also don't think we'll be sending you anymore projects since you provided a reference. We just don't have the confidence in you to give you another job."

So, the proofer I helped out by forwarding excess work to has not only cost themselves compensation (they obviously didn't care much), but they cost me as well, and their previous work provided no real indication of their unprofessional manner. This is why, at this point, I simply turn down excess contracts because I'd rather people think I am so busy I cannot help them, which leaves room for them seeking me out when another project comes along.

You keep talking about replacing people who don't produce, with people who do. In my line of work it takes quite some time to realize someone has stopped producing a "quality product." In addition, having a revolving door on these kinds of projects leads to embarrassing errors, and generally taints everyone affiliated with the contract.

I know you seem to find it hard to believe, but it's not everyone else's fault that a worker sucks, and it's not everyone else's job to coddle a lazy person.

I learned my lesson the hard way, but please don't sit there and tell me that there are so many awesome workers (most don't even pass a basic skills test, by the way) and that they are just being mismanaged. It's a line of work where no one manages you.

You have some misconceptions about management. When did I ever say its everyone else's fault that a worker sucks? I said its usually the manager's fault. When did I ever say coddle the lazy person? You shouldn't be coddling the lazy people. You should be hiring people who have the capability of doing things they don't want to do and do them well.

You really shouldn't be using work from a proofreader without examining some of their work ahead of time. You should spend the time to have them proof something that you aren't using to see if that person is capable. Think of it as investing in an employee's training. If you aren't critiquing the work from your employees then you are not doing your job as a manager and you should be embarrassed when you submit their work and it turns out it sucks.

Only the really poorly managed companies throw their new hires in the line of fire without training them at all. Most of the better run companies train their employees to some extent.

 

[Danke]

 

[MelissaWV]

You have some misconceptions about management. When did I ever say its everyone else's fault that a worker sucks? I said its usually the manager's fault. When did I ever say coddle the lazy person? You shouldn't be coddling the lazy people. You should be hiring people who have the capability of doing things they don't want to do and do them well.

You really shouldn't be using work from a proofreader without examining some of their work ahead of time. You should spend the time to have them proof something that you aren't using to see if that person is capable. Think of it as investing in an employee's training. If you aren't critiquing the work from your employees then you are not doing your job as a manager and you should be embarrassed when you submit their work and it turns out it sucks.

Only the really poorly managed companies throw their new hires in the line of fire without training them at all. Most of the better run companies train their employees to some extent.

Again, you're really being silly. I am not their manager. I am not their employer. I am talking about people who have been doing well on projects, and who have proven themselves capable, who simply grow lazy or greedy. I do not submit things on their behalf. There is not "something I'm not using" to proof. You have stated repeatedly that it's my job to manage these people, which only goes to show that you aren't reading.

Thank you, though, for attempting to tell me how I should do my job in an industry where you obviously have very little --- if any --- experience.

Frankly, this is common in my field.

 

[tttppp]

Again, you're really being silly. I am not their manager. I am not their employer. I am talking about people who have been doing well on projects, and who have proven themselves capable, who simply grow lazy or greedy. I do not submit things on their behalf. There is not "something I'm not using" to proof. You have stated repeatedly that it's my job to manage these people, which only goes to show that you aren't reading.

Thank you, though, for attempting to tell me how I should do my job in an industry where you obviously have very little --- if any --- experience.

Frankly, this is common in my field.

Then you did a piss poor job explaining your situation and industry to me. I only gave you my analysis based on the description you gave me. I can't give you a correct analysis of your situation unless you explain it to me correctly. You've basically given me two different descriptions of your situation.

If you are submitting their work as your own, then it is your job to manage these people. If its not your job, then whose job is it? As I stated in a previous post, if people are not held accountable, you won't get the results you want.

 

[LibForestPaul]

my experience, layers and layers of supervisors, managers, project managers, consultants (and more consultants, while staff keep heading for the door), directors, in meetings, jib jabbing (designing, describing) what needs to be done. one great big circle jerkfest.
can't complain, get paid well, while this company still exists, not much longer though.

 

[MelissaWV]

Then you did a piss poor job explaining your situation and industry to me. I only gave you my analysis based on the description you gave me. I can't give you a correct analysis of your situation unless you explain it to me correctly. You've basically given me two different descriptions of your situation.

If you are submitting their work as your own, then it is your job to manage these people. If its not your job, then whose job is it? As I stated in a previous post, if people are not held accountable, you won't get the results you want.

For the umpteenth time, they manage themselves. I am expected, if a vendor comes to me and I cannot accept the work, to provide a recommendation, which I used to make based on past performance and availability of that worker's portfolio. "I can't help you, but Jane has a history of proofing menus; here's a sample of some work she's done in the past." When Jane decides she's too bored, busy, or lazy to complete that job, it looks bad on me, which is why I have stopped doing it.

This began very simply as a discussion of how difficult it can actually be to find good help. We have shared our personal experiences with that. You've decided to chalk it up to bad managing, and if you'll look back I've explained this so often it makes my head spin: contracts are the responsibility of the individual, but just like that responsible young person you recommend to your neighbor to mow their lawn, when shit goes south, your neighbor also looks poorly on you. Was it your job to manage that lawn mowing kid? No. Does it look bad that you told your neighbor you thought they could do the job and they didn't? Yes.

* * *

I have no idea why I perceive a difficulty in finding folks with decent reading comprehension.

 

[tttppp]

For the umpteenth time, they manage themselves. I am expected, if a vendor comes to me and I cannot accept the work, to provide a recommendation, which I used to make based on past performance and availability of that worker's portfolio. "I can't help you, but Jane has a history of proofing menus; here's a sample of some work she's done in the past." When Jane decides she's too bored, busy, or lazy to complete that job, it looks bad on me, which is why I have stopped doing it.

This began very simply as a discussion of how difficult it can actually be to find good help. We have shared our personal experiences with that. You've decided to chalk it up to bad managing, and if you'll look back I've explained this so often it makes my head spin: contracts are the responsibility of the individual, but just like that responsible young person you recommend to your neighbor to mow their lawn, when shit goes south, your neighbor also looks poorly on you. Was it your job to manage that lawn mowing kid? No. Does it look bad that you told your neighbor you thought they could do the job and they didn't? Yes.

* * *

I have no idea why I perceive a difficulty in finding folks with decent reading comprehension.

This is not the "umpteenth" time explaining this. You've explained this differently 3-4 times. I don't even know what this has to do with finding good help...you referring work over to someone else.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

my experience, layers and layers of supervisors, managers, project managers, consultants (and more consultants, while staff keep heading for the door), directors, in meetings, jib jabbing (designing, describing) what needs to be done. one great big circle jerkfest.
can't complain, get paid well, while this company still exists, not much longer though.

Wow, now that sounds like the company I left (after 17 years) when I moved to the country (as in woods) and became a "lone eagle".
I was Principal Systems Architect for the company and when we went IPO (public) it was a nightmare. Stock went fromk 30 to 75 then down to 14 (after a law suit from AT&T).
I left after being shown my own software architecture by a different group in another state (which I was forced to go see by the CEO after months of fighting) as though it was their own. I let them know I had a newer version of it that I could send them if they wanted all the new features that would allow programmers to accomplish much more than the old one.
Oh, well, isn't competition just lovely when psyocpaths are involved?

 

[MelissaWV]

This is not the "umpteenth" time explaining this. You've explained this differently 3-4 times. I don't even know what this has to do with finding good help...you referring work over to someone else.

I have sadly had to describe the same situation ten different ways in order for you to begin to understand, since you decided (based on next to nothing) to butt in and talk about how the rest of us were wrong about our own experiences. It is my responsibility to get this work done. I talked about partnerships right off the bat. Sadly, those partners let me down without fail. All of them started out qualified, and when they were given more complicated work, they failed to perform, and it reflected on me.

This is similar to what Icy said, as well. This is similar to most proofreading circles I'm aware of. This is very much like the situation that other employers I speak to have found themselves in. This is absolutely the problem with a large number of "entitlement" kiddos who swap positions repeatedly over their lifetimes the moment they are annoyed with responsibilities at an initial job. Look into how long someone stays at one job now, compared with even 30 years ago.

Whatever floats your boat, though; you may continue arguing with yourself as long as you please.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

"We are currently accepting applications though" is the obvious nice way of a business saying they are not hiring. Its pathetic that people are not honest in their words now days,I would just straight out tell people if there was a position or not.