(War on Women) NYC: 10 hours of Harassment or Compliments?

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

How long are you going to dance around the fact that 100% of the genuinely objectionable behavior in the video comes from an extremely specific demographic?

hate thought crime have this guy arrested!

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

How long are you going to dance around the fact that 100% of the genuinely objectionable behavior in the video comes from an extremely specific demographic?

Focusing on the race and background of the people harassing this woman misses the point that jonhowe is trying to make, which is that this happens in any setting at any time of day or night, and that it's still harassment. I've witnessed and heard it in respectable suburban neighborhoods. Although the racial issue is worthy of discussion (for reasons that are quite different from the ones you stated), it doesn't take anything away from or invalidate the criticism itself.

Oh, and FYI, if you want to face the reality of the situation, look up some crime victim demographics. Even with regards to sex crimes, men in America are more likely to be victimized than women are, and where it comes to other types of violent crime, men face overwhelmingly greater odds of being a victim thereof.

So excuse me if the "poor me I feel threatened by wolf whistles" thing doesn't work with me. Men have far more well-grounded fears of being the victim of a serious crime than women do. Grow a thicker skin.

A lot of feminists that aren't the female equivalent of neckbeards (I have lots of my own issues with some self-proclaimed feminists) readily admit that men are more likely to be the victim of sex crimes. In recent times there has been a lot written about this data point. But the fact that this isn't usually discussed openly, if at all, is due to the same "patriarchal" (to borrow the term) framework that feminists readily complain about. Men are thought of as always willing to have sex (therefore they can't be raped, according to this "logic"), and male rape victims in prisons and the military are either silenced or made the butt of cultural jokes ("don't drop the soap!") - or rape becomes a revenge thing. Many intellectually honest feminists discuss these things, and a lot also ask so-called MRAs (men's rights activists) to focus on countermeasures like rape shelters for males, or changing the cultural definition of rape so that it doesn't exclude males from being victims. The Official Definition of rape was changed by the FBI to include male victims two whopping years ago!

We've already explained why any harassment has to be treated as a potential threat. I don't understand why you are choosing to ignore or dismiss this point, but the fact is, simply walking away from a catcaller can cause the situation to escalate. Bringing methods of self-defense is great advice; I know my friend has had to brandish a knife a few times, but that doesn't mean women should have their concerns dismissed with this advice.

 

[Acala]

Focusing on the race and background of the people harassing this woman misses the point that jonhowe is trying to make, which is that this happens in any setting at any time of day or night, and that it's still harassment. I've witnessed and heard it in respectable suburban neighborhoods. Although the racial issue is worthy of discussion (for reasons that are quite different from the ones you stated), it doesn't take anything away from or invalidate the criticism itself.


A lot of feminists that aren't the female equivalent of neckbeards (I have lots of my own issues with some self-proclaimed feminists) readily admit that men are more likely to be the victim of sex crimes. In recent times there has been a lot written about this data point. But the fact that this isn't usually discussed openly, if at all, is due to the same "patriarchal" (to borrow the term) framework that feminists readily complain about. Men are thought of as always willing to have sex (therefore they can't be raped, according to this "logic"), and male rape victims in prisons and the military are either silenced or made the butt of cultural jokes ("don't drop the soap!") - or rape becomes a revenge thing. Many intellectually honest feminists discuss these things, and a lot also ask so-called MRAs (men's rights activists) to focus on countermeasures like rape shelters for males, or changing the cultural definition of rape so that it doesn't exclude males from being victims. The Official Definition of rape was changed by the FBI to include male victims two whopping years ago!

We've already explained why any harassment has to be treated as a potential threat. I don't understand why you are choosing to ignore or dismiss this point, but the fact is, simply walking away from a catcaller can cause the situation to escalate. Bringing methods of self-defense is great advice; I know my friend has had to brandish a knife a few times, but that doesn't mean women should have their concerns dismissed with this advice.

I agree that some of it is really inappropriate, insulting, and frightening. Now what?

 

[Anti Federalist]

I agree that some of it is really inappropriate, insulting, and frightening. Now what?

Vote harder and ban it.

 

[acptulsa]

'I'm not a feminist. I like men.'--Angie Dickinson

Well, I have a problem with the obnoxious. This does include those who don't know when to shut up, and can't take no for an answer. This also goes for those who are bound and determined to tell other people what they should like, tell them what they shouldn't like, and try to ostracize those who do like what they 'shouldn't'.

Whether this vid is an attempt to educate men to show more sensitivity, or to demonize men, or simply to convince women to be afraid of any man who likes them (so they'll get frustrated enough to try lesbianism, perhaps?) is an entirely debatable point.

All I know for sure is the easiest way to stir up a war between the sexes is to convince people there's already one underway. And, you know, ZENemy is right. We're divided and conquered enough already without that.

 

[Philhelm]

I think a lot of women actually want to have sex, but due to societal pressures from other women, and even men, they abstain because they don't want to be thought of as cheap or a slut or whatever even though they are engaging in a perfectly healthy activity. There's nothing wrong with monogamous sex, imo, however even many men who are monogamous complain that they don't get enough sex. This often leads to feelings of not being appreciated by their spouse.

Part of the reason is that sex has a "market value" and women know that they can use that in order to obtain things that they want. Women are the gatekeepers of sex and men are the gatekeepers of commitment. To give sex freely is of little worth to a woman. This is why "slut-shaming" is usually done by women against other women, since a woman that gives sex freely is undercutting the competition.

 

[thoughtomator]

We've already explained why any harassment has to be treated as a potential threat. I don't understand why you are choosing to ignore or dismiss this point, but the fact is, simply walking away from a catcaller can cause the situation to escalate. Bringing methods of self-defense is great advice; I know my friend has had to brandish a knife a few times, but that doesn't mean women should have their concerns dismissed with this advice.

Same can be said of beggars. I can't count how many times I have seen a beggar turn hostile when I declined to give them money.

There's really only a couple of ways of dealing with the issue. Either we can impose a police state, or each person needs to be responsible for looking out for their own selves.

The people who put out that video want the former solution.

I from experience know that the latter solution is the more effective one. Situational awareness and a Plan B will keep you safe. Whining that it's not fair will not keep you safe.

It really doesn't take very much experience to learn what kinds of people to steer clear of in NYC. Took me all of two months tops to learn it, so unless you just stepped off the bus, there really is no excuse. This woman was deliberately putting herself into bad situations and is whining for sympathy because for 90 seconds out of 10 hours bad things happened in bad situations.

She actually has no idea what men go through - women have it easy. A male of the same color and age walking through some those same neighborhoods would be lucky to make it through alive and in one piece.

The unfortunate reality is that there is a savage element among the desperately poor in the cities and that, not the catcalling, is the real problem here.

 

[acptulsa]

Same can be said of beggars.

A more perfect comparison I cannot imagine.

 

[Philhelm]

The "oh woe is me, I'm lonely" excuse doesn't hold water with me, either. This is caused by a societal tendency to place way too much emphasis on sex as a motivating factor and dehumanizes men. They're not deserving of pity, but they do deserve to be held accountable for their actions as autonomous human beings.

Only women deserve pity in our society. Of course, most women (and I mean every woman that doesn't have a hideous disfigurement combined with a rancid stench) will never know what it is like to be truly lonely. Women have a higher sexual market value which is why they can typically date up; a female "3" will have a much easier time finding a mate than a male "3." No job? No house? No car? No worries! Not so for a male.

 

[Acala]

Vote harder and ban it.

Yup. There is no problem that cannot be made worse by the application of more government.

 

[PRB]

Good news: it's not illegal and won't be illegal anytime soon, there's no way to prohibit making one time comments without infringing on free speech. There's no way to tell if a person was saying hi and being friendly vs being creepy if it was a one off shot.

 

[Philhelm]

Good news: it's not illegal and won't be illegal anytime soon, there's no way to prohibit making one time comments without infringing on free speech. There's no way to tell if a person was saying hi and being friendly vs being creepy if it was a one off shot.

If the man is a hot alpha stud then it was friendly. If the man is unattractive to the female then it was creepy. Women have utter contempt and absolutely no empathy for weak males.

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

Same can be said of beggars. I can't count how many times I have seen a beggar turn hostile when I declined to give them money.

There's really only a couple of ways of dealing with the issue. Either we can impose a police state, or each person needs to be responsible for looking out for their own selves.

The people who put out that video want the former solution.
[...]

She actually has no idea what men go through - women have it easy. A male of the same color and age walking through some those same neighborhoods would be lucky to make it through alive and in one piece.

The unfortunate reality is that there is a savage element among the desperately poor in the cities and that, not the catcalling, is the real problem here.

Actually, no feminist I have seen commenting on the matter has advocated for a literal police state to combat the problem, and I see no reason to likewise assume that that is what the makers of this video want (even if they did, again, it wouldn't invalidate their concerns). Cultural pressure is generally what feminists like to talk about; i.e., (to also answer Acala's question), if people have friends who harass others, they need to sit them down and simply talk about why it's inappropriate to do so. If this sounds preposterous to you, I'll offer anecdotally that I know plenty of males on my FB who said they would be discussing these issues with their friends. A lot of people frankly have no idea that what they are doing is wrong until someone (parents or peers, depending on age and the situation) gives them a real talking-to about it. I'm (I hope not too charitably) guessing a lot of the people who post on this board are decent enough to not associate with people who behave this way, or not to raise kids who act like this, but just in case... that would be my advice. Stating bluntly that it's sort of fucked up and gross to harass people and that you wouldn't remain friends with anyone who did it is a small action, but if enough people did so, it would be at least noticeably different from the current status quo.

"Do it because you want people to be better, and because you intend to hold humanity accountable for producing disgusting, petulant man-trolls who think they’re entitled to other people’s time and attention. Do it because you’re gonna stop the cycle of disgusting, petulant man-trolls right flipping now, in your own flipping life," to quote an article I read on this subject a few days ago. This is strong language that may provoke a typically defensive response, but to me, this is no different from countless libertarian-themed attempts to change people's minds re: the topic of big government. It's parallel to the philosophical activism that the namesake of this forum holds so dear.

Again, the rest of this post is mostly assumption. "She has no idea what males go through" - has she specifically spoken about the video yet, and have you personally contacted her to get her opinion? Yes, there is a violence problem in bigger cities, but this isn't a time to be hosting the Oppression Olympics right now. This is a video made about the very specific issue of catcalling, and how catcalling indeed ties into larger problems of violence and poverty. The very fact that this sort of behavior occurs across all manner of social situations and settings, however, means that catcalling and the entitlement mentality are "real problems" in and out of themselves. Catcalling specifically is not chiefly a violence and poverty problem, it's in all likelihood a breeding and cultural problem that is reinforced by popular culture and a few other forces.

 

[Slave Mentality]

Divide and conquer, how does it work? This thread is a small case study. The propaganda media is playing some of you like fiddles.

 

[mad cow]

She should walk around San Francisco or Portland for 10 hours smoking a cigarette and wearing a mink stole and record the harassment/compliment ratio.

And maybe the sex of each harasser/complimenter.

 

[dannno]

If the man is a hot alpha stud then it was friendly. If the man is unattractive to the female then it was creepy. Women have utter contempt and absolutely no empathy for weak males.

Yes, unattractive men need to learn their place and not give compliments to attractive women who are obviously so much better than them.

 

[Matt Collins]

I live in washington heights in Manhattan, a mostly dominican neighborhood north of harlem. Cat calling is an every day thing here, and in much of the city. Some is harmless, just annoying, but a good deal is extremely aggressive. I have several female friends and coworkers who regularly have threatening interactions in all areas of the city.

As the homeless population grows, the number of creepy/crazy/aggressive catcallers will only increase.

My point is that if you hang around low-class people you'll encounter low-class behavior.

Exactly, don't go to places where people behave this way.

 

[thoughtomator]

Yes, unattractive men need to learn their place and not give compliments to attractive women who are obviously so much better than them.

Or, in this case, hideously unattractive women. She really is so homely that her promo pic is difficult to look at. That's one fugly woman - which is actually really really hard to do for a 24-year-old female in good health. Mind you, her fugliness has no relevance to any of the other points being made here, other than perhaps that low-class creeps may think they have a better shot at a butterface chick than a decent-looking one.

 

[Acala]

Actually, no feminist I have seen commenting on the matter has advocated for a literal police state to combat the problem, and I see no reason to likewise assume that that is what the makers of this video want (even if they did, again, it wouldn't invalidate their concerns). Cultural pressure is generally what feminists like to talk about; i.e., (to also answer Acala's question), if people have friends who harass others, they need to sit them down and simply talk about why it's inappropriate to do so. If this sounds preposterous to you, I'll offer anecdotally that I know plenty of males on my FB who said they would be discussing these issues with their friends. A lot of people frankly have no idea that what they are doing is wrong until someone (parents or peers, depending on age and the situation) gives them a real talking-to about it. I'm (I hope not too charitably) guessing a lot of the people who post on this board are decent enough to not associate with people who behave this way, or not to raise kids who act like this, but just in case... that would be my advice. Stating bluntly that it's sort of fucked up and gross to harass people and that you wouldn't remain friends with anyone who did it is a small action, but if enough people did so, it would be at least noticeably different from the current status quo.

"Do it because you want people to be better, and because you intend to hold humanity accountable for producing disgusting, petulant man-trolls who think they’re entitled to other people’s time and attention. Do it because you’re gonna stop the cycle of disgusting, petulant man-trolls right flipping now, in your own flipping life," to quote an article I read on this subject a few days ago. This is strong language that may provoke a typically defensive response, but to me, this is no different from countless libertarian-themed attempts to change people's minds re: the topic of big government. It's parallel to the philosophical activism that the namesake of this forum holds so dear.

Again, the rest of this post is mostly assumption. "She has no idea what males go through" - has she specifically spoken about the video yet, and have you personally contacted her to get her opinion? Yes, there is a violence problem in bigger cities, but this isn't a time to be hosting the Oppression Olympics right now. This is a video made about the very specific issue of catcalling, and how catcalling indeed ties into larger problems of violence and poverty. The very fact that this sort of behavior occurs across all manner of social situations and settings, however, means that catcalling and the entitlement mentality are "real problems" in and out of themselves. Catcalling specifically is not chiefly a violence and poverty problem, it's in all likelihood a breeding and cultural problem that is reinforced by popular culture and a few other forces.

I am all in favor of changing culture from the bottom up. Indeed, that is the only way to bring about social change. But, frankly, I don't know a single person who would behave that way so I don't feel there is much I can do beyond saying that I can appreciate why women might object to some of this crap. Good luck.

 

[Philhelm]

Or, in this case, hideously unattractive women. She really is so homely that her promo pic is difficult to look at. That's one fugly woman - which is actually really really hard to do for a 24-year-old female in good health. Mind you, her fugliness has no relevance to any of the other points being made here, other than perhaps that low-class creeps may think they have a better shot at a butterface chick than a decent-looking one.

I'm repeating myself, but women have a higher sexual market value than men (at least at that age). Men will typically lower their standards in order to have sex with a less attractive female than to go home alone at the end of the night. This is why women tend to get an inflated sense of sexual worth/attractiveness. A 10/10 alpha stud will use a 7/10 for sex, thereby artificially validating the woman's sense of self-worth. Of course, the alpha stud would never commit to the 7/10, since he is aiming for a 10/10. This is part of the reason women can never find a "good man." They are used to having sex with men who are above their true sexual value and have no reason to commit to a man of their level. Meanwhile, the 7/10 man who is attracted to the 7/10 female is invisible to her, so will likely have to date down. The omega men are the worst off, since even an ugly female can get laid in a pinch. However, the omega man is invisible to the world and usually end up as furries or cosplay folks.