(War on Women) NYC: 10 hours of Harassment or Compliments?

[PaulConventionWV]

I am not saying it is rational. I said I can't explain it- it is some weird feeling. Death to me is the end. Rape is a life long scar one has to carry.

What do you know about it?

I'm someone that cannot tolerate seeing ANY violence against children or animals or witness any kind suffering of them. My nervous system goes haywire. However, I can watch someone get hacked to death with a machete in a movie with indifference. I have selective empathy and sympathy or something. *shrug*

So for me to try to logically explain why I find rape worse (in many cases) to murder- I will be unable to do so.

As long as you know how irrational it sounds. I'm still curious what makes you think of rape in such terms, though, because I'm assuming that you haven't actually suffered from it before, or else you probably wouldn't be here, talking about it.

 

[pessimist]

I know exactly what you're talking about, dannno. I hate to say it, but I really think there's a gray area in the law. Alcohol messes everything up when it comes to consent because it oftentimes makes clear consent nearly impossible. Then, we have the issue of the woman sitting in her apartment the next morning trying to decide if she was raped last night.

I may get flamed for this, but in cases like that, I'm going to stick with 'innocent until proven guilty' and say that the man should not be blamed. I'm not going to try to tell women what to do, but if I was really, truly raped, I'm pretty sure it would consume my every thought. There would be no doubt in my mind. The thought of consent would be out of the question. If you have to sit in your apartment and debate about whether you consented or not, then I can't call that rape. It's not worth ruining a man's life over it if you literally can't remember if you consented because the very fact that you had the presence of mind to sit and think about it in those terms proves that it didn't traumatize you to the point of being scared to go out anymore.

It is pretty well-known that women have the power to ruin a man's life with this one claim. A little acting and he may go to prison for the rest of his life. I'm not saying that a lot of women do that, but it can be done, and I can only hope and ask that women don't abuse the power they have in those situations. In fact, because of this, it is advisable for both men and women to avoid sex while drunk. Women, if you think it's something you'll regret, don't do it. Just because you can go out there and "see what happens" doesn't mean you should. If the idea of non-consensual sex doesn't scare you enough to avoid putting yourself in a situation where it could happen, then it's best to avoid it altogether and not potentially expose yourself to the predicament where a man's life hangs in the balance.

If you're not sure about what you want, then a college frat party is probably the worst possible place to try to hook up.

Yes. That is definitely true- you have got a valid point there. One claim can shatter an innocent guys reputation for life even if proven innocent. This world is a scary place.

 

[pessimist]

What do you know about it?

As long as you know how irrational it sounds. I'm still curious what makes you think of rape in such terms, though, because I'm assuming that you haven't actually suffered from it before, or else you probably wouldn't be here, talking about it.

lol. no I have never been raped.

Like I said, I can't explain it. I think I link it to suffering. Also, the very idea of it is HIGHLY disturbing to me.

My nervous system is way too complicated for me to try to unravel.

 

[jmdrake]

Wow you got really butt hurt over that ass grabbing comment of mine.

Naw. I'm just thorough. You didn't represent the conversation the way that I remembered it so I went back and checked and then posted the results for your edification.

You chose to read those posts as a tirade or take offense but like I said no offense was intended. At one point I have a few posts after that where I tried to add a little levity since I figured I may have ruffled a few feathers unintentionally.

He chose to believe I was saying all cat-calling = sexual assault but I never said that. Regardless that has ZERO to do with the point I was trying to make with him. I was trying to make the point along the same lines that Johnhowe kept reluctantly coming back to the thread to make with him.

Okay. Like some animals are more equal than others, some jokes are funnier than others. Glad to know we all know that cat-calling != sexual assault. My concern remains that iHollaback's agenda doesn't seem to see things that way. On their own page they complained about a judge reluctant to convict a man for a "mere indecent request." And I guess that's the rub. Your concern seems to be why the rest of us don't take cat-calling as serious. Our concern is that iHollaback's endgame is for cat-calling to be taken so seriously that a judge dare not, not convict someone over a "mere indecent request."

The point I was making was along the lines of that the behavior is sometimes scary to women and how it sometimes leads to sexual assault or women have the fear it may lead to sexual assault. (they never know sometimes which way it is going to go, so no harm done if they want to have a campaign for civility). That really should not be all that hard for you to understand nor is saying that controversial.

FDR was correct saying "We have nothing to fear, but fear itself." I should not be expected to live my life around the fear of someone else that may or may not be justified. You know the one time that I know a woman was afraid of me? When I was in college three of my friends were walking down from the dorm to the local convenience store. This was in the 80s and folks still used "boom boxes" and one friend was carrying one and the music was up. It was in the evening. All of us were black. A white woman was at the store talking on a pay phone. Despite the fact that this was a busy street in an area with little crime, this woman hurried up and got off the phone, ran and jumped in her car and peeled off like bigfoot was trying to get her. My point? Her fear was HER fault! Not mine! Now can I understand her fear? Sure. Four college aged black dudes walking down the street playing loud music and throwing their hands up. In her mind we could have been the Bloods or the Crips. Should there be some campaign to get young black men to not play music loud enough for someone else to hear and throw their hands up because some white woman might be fearful without any reason? Sorry, but that's garbage. So is the idea pushed by the video and adopted by Rothbardian Girl that if a guy says "Smile" that's something to get upset and and somehow "street harassment". Behavior that is completely innocent and in some cases the polite thing to do has been lumped in with "creepy" behavior. That's just one of the problems with the entire iHollaback movement even if we assume that they aren't trying to pass new laws. (And I'm certain that they are trying to pass new laws).

I even have several posts saying I believe cat calling != sexual assault. However that site includes sexual assault as part of street harassment - cat-calling. So sexual assault related to cat-calling is fair game in this discussion, quite relevant and should not have been so shocking to you or him that I brought that into the thread like others here did.

And ^that is the problem you seem unable to see! The stupid iHollaback video and site conflates sexual assault with cat calling. It gives no evidence that a man saying "You look like a thousand dollars" leads to sexual assault. Really Dannno makes a better case that the criminalization of prostitution leads to rape than the "iHollaback" movement does with regards to cat-calling and sexual assault. (And FTR I think Danno's touched). The "cat calling leads to assault" theory is just thrown in there as a "truth" without supporting evidence. Most of the stuff on the OP video ain't even cat calling! It is downright dishonest of iHollaback to gloss over the fact that men telling a woman "good evening" or "smile" should not be lumped in with sexual assault or anything leading to sexual assault.

AHHH, LOL

 

[jmdrake]

I am not saying it is rational. I said I can't explain it- it is some weird feeling. Death to me is the end. Rape is a life long scar one has to carry.

I'm someone that cannot tolerate seeing ANY violence against children or animals or witness any kind suffering of them. My nervous system goes haywire. However, I can watch someone get hacked to death with a machete in a movie with indifference. I have selective empathy and sympathy or something. *shrug*

So for me to try to logically explain why I find rape worse (in many cases) to murder- I will be unable to do so.

EDIT: Poorly worded on my part. Just wanted to say I am not pro-murder.

I don't think you're pro murder any more than I think Dannno is pro rape. Dannno says things that are beyond the pale, but this is what's getting lost in translation. Sometimes, certainly not all of the time, rape is more about sex than about violence. Here is proof. One case I had to study was a case where a young woman had invited a friend who was staying at their house up to her bedroom. They both got undressed and she invited him into her bed. They were making out. He was about to penetrate and she then said no. He only got the tip in, then immediately stopped, put on his clothes and left. He was convicted of rape! Even the women in my class were uncomfortable with this, but they consoled themselves with "Well she did say no and no means no." Okay. Fine. He committed a crime. But would any sane person think "This is a violent man that just wants to control women"? How about that was a manipulative woman that got her jollies on controlling and destroying men? Or maybe they were two scared teens that really had no clue what they were doing or what they wanted to do and she got cold feet and he was so wound up that it took him a split second too long to put on the brakes? Really, I would have been okay with that conviction if she had said no and he continued despite her pleas to stop until he ejaculated. But that's not what happened. He would have been better off hiring a hooker.

 

[dannno]

I don't get this either. I find it sad and frightening that people need a freaking moral code not to rape.

Wait a minute here, are you trying to say that if you won $20 million in the lottery you would just give it all away? You mean, you don't want a nicer house, a nicer car, maybe some different clothes, new electronics? There is nothing you would get if you had more money? Why don't you steal those things? Is it because you are afraid you will get caught, or is it because of a moral code? I would think, in your case, it is due to a moral code that you don't think it is right to steal other people's labor. I don't think it is frightening that people need a moral code not to steal, I think the fact that most or at least many people have that moral code is a good thing. I think the fact that most guys don't rape women because of a moral code is a good thing, too. We are biologically driven to want to have sex with attractive women, so what stops us is either fear of getting caught or a moral code. I would be more concerned that people were not committing theft or rape because they were scared of getting caught, the moral code is self imposing and a much better option.

Huge difference between the two.

There is not a huge difference between stealing a rape, rape is just stealing sex. It IS worse, imo, but with theft you are essentially enslaving somebody and stealing their labor. There are plenty of women willing to trade having sex with a guy they wouldn't normally have sex with for 2 days wages, some girls are only willing to do with for 5 days wages, some 20 days wages and others would not be willing to do it for 100 days wages... but would they do it for 5,000 days wages? Maybe, maybe not.. Some women don't have a price, most will tell you they don't but many of them actually would take it if it were realistically available. A LOT of women have a price on their sexuality that can be valued in the number of days they can forgo working, so in many cases you could actually make a value comparison. Where the difference comes is when somebody works for several years, saves up a good some of money and it is stolen, let's say by a business partner or violently by a thief or by a hacker, I will admit that the psychological difficulty of dealing with that is likely less than the psychological difficulty of dealing with rape, but I don't think they are that much different. Stealing may just be losing your physical possessions, but the effort and labor you went through to gain those physical possessions is also lost and that is where the similarity comes in.

Well yeah! Duh! I just meant that sex is on the mind before the potential date rapist enters the party or bar or club.

Ya, consensual sex is on their mind- when they don't get that they may turn to rape. It's not like rape is on their mind and suddenly a girl just consents and it comes as a surprise, no, the goal in most cases was consensual sex first and the rape comes out of desperation.

I have no interest in talking about feminism. I am talking about rape. I don't need a campaign or some feminist to tell me that rape is wrong. I haven't been brainwashed. I just have an emotional, visceral reaction to it for some reason. I find it worse than murder in most cases. I don't know why.

I think murder is worse but I'm not a female who has been raped and some of them agree with you so there must be something to that. But then other women are raped and don't report it because they feel bad for the guy who raped them (maybe it was a friend who they knew was sexually desperate) and maybe they are somewhat mad and want them to be punished in some way but they don't want them to go to prison for several years and get raped themselves. Or maybe they aren't sure whether they consented, or maybe they think they led them on too much and feel bad about that. So there are clearly differences in how women feel about being raped themselves depending on the situation.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I don't think you're pro murder any more than I think Dannno is pro rape. Dannno says things that are beyond the pale, but this is what's getting lost in translation. Sometimes, certainly not all of the time, rape is more about sex than about violence. Here is proof. One case I had to study was a case where a young woman had invited a friend who was staying at their house up to her bedroom. They both got undressed and she invited him into her bed. They were making out. He was about to penetrate and she then said no. He only got the tip in, then immediately stopped, put on his clothes and left. He was convicted of rape! Even the women in my class were uncomfortable with this, but they consoled themselves with "Well she did say no and no means no." Okay. Fine. He committed a crime. But would any sane person think "This is a violent man that just wants to control women"? How about that was a manipulative woman that got her jollies on controlling and destroying men? Or maybe they were two scared teens that really had no clue what they were doing or what they wanted to do and she got cold feet and he was so wound up that it took him a split second too long to put on the brakes? Really, I would have been okay with that conviction if she had said no and he continued despite her pleas to stop until he ejaculated. But that's not what happened. He would have been better off hiring a hooker.

What? So in this case you studied, you're telling me the woman said no as he was in the process of penetrating, he immediately complied and stopped, the only pause being his reaction time, and he STILL got convicted of rape with her testifying against him? Is that really what you're telling me?

 

[dannno]

What? So in this case you studied, you're telling me the woman said no as he was in the process of penetrating, he immediately complied and stopped, the only pause being his reaction time, and he STILL got convicted of rape with her testifying against him? Is that really what you're telling me?

I suppose she wasn't expecting it, which is entirely naive on her part. If you are making out with a guy in bed and your underwear is off, the guy is going to assume you are probably ok with having sex unless you say otherwise. No feminist thought BS will convince me or many others otherwise.

 

[jmdrake]

What? So in this case you studied, you're telling me the woman said no as he was in the process of penetrating, he immediately complied and stopped, the only pause being his reaction time, and he STILL got convicted of rape with her testifying against him? Is that really what you're telling me?

It's been a while since I read that case, but I went back and read it. It's worse than what I described. While the court believed the defendant's testimony that he had been invited to the girls bedroom, they got undressed, they were naked and kissing, he penetrated her three times, and then on the fourth thrust she pushed him off and said stop, and he immediately stopped, he was still guilty of rape.

See: https://www.soc.umn.edu/~samaha/cases/state_v_mts.htm

I remember having a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I read this. And like I said, even the women in the class were uncomfortable with it. But then some of them settled on "Well no does mean no."

 

[RJB]

Here's video that touches on the subject:

 

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Good video. Thanks. Good short, summary to get the attention of people who don't really make the connection about lice being the real harassers.

Here's video that touches on the subject:

 

[TheTexan]

Here's video that touches on the subject:

The top comment on that video makes some good points

"I'm far from a cop-hugger but this is incredibly one sided and foolish. Police protect decent, civilized people from degenerates and savages, and put their lives on the line doing it. Police are a necessary evil, the alternative being much worse. Sure some cops are scumbags but most are just regular guys who are trying to make a living and keep their community safe. What do you think would happen to a pretty, young Jewish girl like you if there were no cops, no laws, no prisons, etc? You would be raped and killed before nightfall. I think that you are very naive and foolish and have been drinking too much lolbertarian koolaid."

 

[RJB]

Police are a necessary evil,

I would never consider any evil necessary.

 

[specsaregood]

The top comment on that video makes some good points

I found her shiny teeth distracting.

 

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

What do you think would happen to a pretty, young Jewish girl like you if there were no cops, no laws, no prisons, etc?

Yeah, and I'm the creepy conspiracy theorist on this forum. lol

 

[jmdrake]

The top comment on that video makes some good points

"I'm far from a cop-hugger but this is incredibly one sided and foolish. Police protect decent, civilized people from degenerates and savages, and put their lives on the line doing it. Police are a necessary evil, the alternative being much worse. Sure some cops are scumbags but most are just regular guys who are trying to make a living and keep their community safe. What do you think would happen to a pretty, young Jewish girl like you if there were no cops, no laws, no prisons, etc? You would be raped and killed before nightfall. I think that you are very naive and foolish and have been drinking too much lolbertarian koolaid."

Arrest that commenter for vlog harassment. He's threatening that "pretty, young Jewish girl" with rape.

 

[JK/SEA]

so this thread, and all the comments that followed, is all over a staged video?...

wtf...?

 

[presence]

Meanwhile...









...strap me down and tell me everything will be alright.

 

[kahless]

The top comment on that video makes some good points

"I'm far from a cop-hugger but this is incredibly one sided and foolish. Police protect decent, civilized people from degenerates and savages, and put their lives on the line doing it. Police are a necessary evil, the alternative being much worse. Sure some cops are scumbags but most are just regular guys who are trying to make a living and keep their community safe. What do you think would happen to a pretty, young Jewish girl like you if there were no cops, no laws, no prisons, etc? You would be raped and killed before nightfall. I think that you are very naive and foolish and have been drinking too much lolbertarian koolaid."

If the thugs know there is no form of law enforcement whether private or government, no doubt she would be raped or gang raped while she calls out for the police.

 

[presence]

If the thugs know there is no form of law enforcement whether private or government, no doubt she would be raped or gang raped while she calls out for the police.

that's heavy on so many levels