(War on Women) NYC: 10 hours of Harassment or Compliments?

[Rothbardian Girl]

[...]

If you're not all like that, then show me the feminists fighting against all these false labels. What do feminists have in common? We're not allowed to say that they all vilify men, and yet that does seem to be a recurring theme. When will you denounce this? If feminism is about equality, then why is it called feminism and not egalitarianism or humanism?

Egalitarianism and humanism are two words that already describe two very different concepts within political economy. Feminism is comparable to libertarianism in terms of intellectual diversity. I personally shun what I derisively call "college freshman feminism/Hillary 2016 feminism" and "tumblr feminism." I'm eager to debate any anti-gun feminist I see, and I regularly make fun of the vapid "feminist" shit that shows up on tumblr and is imbibed by every starry-eyed teenager. I loathe average liberal feminists like Lena Dunham. I can show why these people are anti-feminist despite the fact they choose to call themselves feminists, and so no, I don't take responsibility for what they say. I don't take responsibility for libertarians who believe in Jewish banking conspiracies or the Illuminati; why am I being forced to police every single statement made by every single self-styled feminist?

- - - -
jmdrake: there are plenty of settings where Gunny's overtures would be welcomed. The discussion is specifically about strangers who choose to waste people's time on something that has a very low success rate, yet is constantly held up as an example of something to do or played off for laughs within pop culture. The "good evenings" are fine IMO as long as they are not used as a stepping stone to further harassment. I've stated not that most men don't catcall, but rather most of the male friends I have understand it is possibly offensive and so choose not to engage in it, and they also tell their friends not to. And these friends of mine do not have issues finding women to date.

The sexual violence thing was a response to dannno's aside about how legalizing prostitution would help people inclined to violence, i.e., violent, get their rocks off. I was questioning his thesis - it has nothing to do with the other issues being discussed in this thread. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Logically, his statement doesn't make sense because not every man was represented in that video. It just came off as a very petulant and silly quip. There were plenty of men off-camera and on-camera, I'm sure, that managed to make it past the actress without commenting at all.



Those laws didn't just pass in a vacuum, they were passed because attitudes and expectations changed. If laws passed in a vacuum, what would be the point of any activism or revolution at all?

As for the jeans thing, I will stop wearing skinny jeans when men stop wearing gym shorts and going shirtless at the beach. Quid pro quo.

Okay, cool. That means you get to cat-call me and I get to cat-call you. Fair is fair. Quid pro quo.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Yeah you're right. She looked completely comfortable in that situation.

She really didn't look like anything because she was acting. In fact, they even said it was acting. She wasn't showing any emotion.

Which is actually quite odd because any reasonable woman would have said something to a man that just randomly started walking beside her. If she had told him to go away, maybe he wouldn't have followed her. Believe it or not, even creepy men don't want to be seen following a woman that is actively trying to get him away. The point is, if she had just told him to go away, chances are that it would have worked.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Egalitarianism and humanism are two words that already describe two very different concepts within political economy. Feminism is comparable to libertarianism in terms of intellectual diversity. I personally shun what I derisively call "college freshman feminism/Hillary 2016 feminism" and "tumblr feminism." I'm eager to debate any anti-gun feminist I see, and I regularly make fun of the vapid "feminist" shit that shows up on tumblr and is imbibed by every starry-eyed teenager. I loathe average liberal feminists like Lena Dunham. I can show why these people are anti-feminist despite the fact they choose to call themselves feminists, and so no, I don't take responsibility for what they say. I don't take responsibility for libertarians who believe in Jewish banking conspiracies or the Illuminati; why am I being forced to police every single statement made by every single self-styled feminist?

- - - -
jmdrake: there are plenty of settings where Gunny's overtures would be welcomed. The discussion is specifically about strangers who choose to waste people's time on something that has a very low success rate, yet is constantly held up as an example of something to do or played off for laughs within pop culture. The "good evenings" are fine IMO as long as they are not used as a stepping stone to further harassment. I've stated not that most men don't catcall, but rather most of the male friends I have understand it is possibly offensive and so choose not to engage in it, and they also tell their friends not to. And these friends of mine do not have issues finding women to date.

The sexual violence thing was a response to dannno's aside about how legalizing prostitution would help people inclined to violence, i.e., violent, get their rocks off. I was questioning his thesis - it has nothing to do with the other issues being discussed in this thread. I apologize for the confusion.

If not all feminists are like that, then what are all feminists like? There has to be a central message that justifies giving them a label.

 

[pessimist]

my daughter ignores the comments. Simple.

Would you enjoy being constantly bothered in the streets? Wouldn't it start to grate on your nerves after a while? Wouldn't a few scary situations start to have a psychological impact?

I am a heterosexual guy- I notice hot women too. However, I am able to restrain my animal instincts and not act like some primitive ape in heat at the sight of one.

 

[dannno]

Would you enjoy being constantly bothered in the streets? Wouldn't it start to grate on your nerves after a while? Wouldn't a few scary situations start to have a psychological impact?

I am a heterosexual guy- I notice hot women too. However, I am able to restrain my animal instincts and not act like some primitive ape in heat at the sight of one.

You also admit you have not much of a sex drive and a passive personality.

I think if I walked down the street and girls were constantly like, "hey, you look really smart!!" and "hey, smarty pants!!" and "Yo nerdy guy, you wannna have babies, I'll bet you make a lot of money!!" I don't think I would mind that much.

I think the problem is that some women get cat called and automatically think the guy has bad intentions when most guys just want to have sex. Sex isn't a bad intention. So it's really the women's psychosis, which may be caused by past trauma from another male. It would be healthier for them to get over the fear that EVERY man who cat calls them is going to be violent and try and begin to distinguish, or just ignore.

 

[jmdrake]

jmdrake: there are plenty of settings where Gunny's overtures would be welcomed. The discussion is specifically about strangers who choose to waste people's time on something that has a very low success rate, yet is constantly held up as an example of something to do or played off for laughs within pop culture. The "good evenings" are fine IMO as long as they are not used as a stepping stone to further harassment. I've stated not that most men don't catcall, but rather most of the male friends I have understand it is possibly offensive and so choose not to engage in it, and they also tell their friends not to. And these friends of mine do not have issues finding women to date.

Well they're already off limits at work. (Could get sued). Gunny was in the military. Flirting on base, while it happens, could get you in trouble. If you're deployed, depending on where you are, doing it off base could get you killed. Not everybody likes the "singles bar" scene. And the way the human brain works, if it's drilled in your head that "Women don't like strangers talking to them" then even when the talk is "appropriate" it's likely not going to come off right. That said, my female friends have told me that the wouldn't have minded someone like me saying "Hello" or even "You look nice" while walking down the street. But maybe that's because I'm so debonair and incredibly handsome. (j/k). And it's nice that your friends haven't had trouble getting dates. Gunny has already stated that he has. You want others to see things from your perspective. You should be willing to see things from their perspective as well.

The sexual violence thing was a response to dannno's aside about how legalizing prostitution would help people inclined to violence, i.e., violent, get their rocks off. I was questioning his thesis - it has nothing to do with the other issues being discussed in this thread. I apologize for the confusion.

Okay. I went back and re-read Dannno's post and I see your point.

 

[Philhelm]

This whole debate is silly. the GREAT LIE is that women are overwhelmingly victims of sexual harassment. As a man, I'm always dreadfully careful about what I say and do, particularly at work since the modern, feminine workforce requires that I tuck my balls between my legs when at the office. In my experience, women tend to sexually harass men far, far more than the men do to women, since they essentially have a blank check to do so. Let's make a list of unprovoked actions I have experienced (then imagine if a man did them to a woman):

1. While at club, woman walks by and casually slides her hand on my crotch.
2. Woman at office put her hand around my belt while talking to me, and would often touch my shoulder.
3. Woman at office states that a bitchy co-worker needs to get laid.
4. Women have physically touched me in a seductive manner while at work (mostly when I was younger).
5. Woman at McDonald's kissed a grill-burn on my arm.
6. Female bartender once admitted she thought I was gay because I never hit on the (ugly) waitresses.
7. A woman once followed me to my car begging for a ride, and tried to open the passenger door.
8. While in the military, a female sergeant offered to have sex with me (we weren't friends).
9. The sexual jokes were always overwhelming, but I always had watch my step since the work environment is hostile toward men.
10. Women making jokes about men not getting laid (of course, it's easy for a woman).
11. Woman at club unbuttoned my shirt unprovoked.

I could go on and on and on, but women have been much less restricted in their sexually suggestive conduct to the extent that this entire subject is laughable. I wouldn't do half of the things that have been done to me since I could actually get in legal trouble or fired. For fuck's sake, imagine if a man tried to enter a woman's car demanding a ride, or grabbed a woman's belt at work, etc. The whole point of feminisim is to seize power, not to achieve some form of egalitarianism. Congratulations though; they are winning! Work sucks. I can't smoke, drink, curse, talk about dames, or do anything remotely fun because one day some bitch woman with a hair up her hole is going to file a complaint. The matriarch tyranny is going to be unbearable. No thank you!

 

[kahless]

I think if I walked down the street and girls were constantly like, "hey, you look really smart!!" and "hey, smarty pants!!" and "Yo nerdy guy, you wannna have babies, I'll bet you make a lot of money!!" I don't think I would mind.

Would be nice if was nice girls but not if it is skanky street prostitutes and crack whores, spraying you when they speak with who knows what and touching you with whatever man fluids that are still on their grubby hands. Not liking it.

 

[pessimist]

You also admit you have not much of a sex drive and a passive personality.

I think if I walked down the street and girls were constantly like, "hey, you look really smart!!" and "hey, smarty pants!!" and "Yo nerdy guy, you wannna have babies, I'll bet you make a lot of money!!" I don't think I would mind that much.

I think the problem is that some women get cat called and automatically think the guy has bad intentions when most guys just want to have sex. Sex isn't a bad intention. So it's really the women's psychosis, which may be caused by past trauma from another male. It would be healthier for them to get over the fear that EVERY man who cat calls them is going to be violent and try and begin to distinguish, or just ignore.

*Passive-aggressive

Anyway, I am not talking about sexism or feminism or anything. I am just talking about being harassed and bothered in the street.

Try to put yourself in a woman's shoes who is hit on daily just walking to her car. That would piss me off, to be honest. I would have to imagine the whole *blush* "thank you for noticing" wears thin after a while, no?

Many of those chicks often do run into overly aggressive men, which would obviously be frightening for them.

I am not saying cat-calls = assaults here. Just looking at it from an angle of female who consistently faces such things. To me, that would suck. But then again, I'm a borderline misanthrope.

 

[JK/SEA]

Would you enjoy being constantly bothered in the streets? Wouldn't it start to grate on your nerves after a while? Wouldn't a few scary situations start to have a psychological impact?

I am a heterosexual guy- I notice hot women too. However, I am able to restrain my animal instincts and not act like some primitive ape in heat at the sight of one.

no...as i said...she IGNORES them. Easy peesey, chuck E Cheesy...i guess she's in control of her emotions, plus she is very strong. Works out.....

edit:,,,hey, wait a minute...you banned yourself didn't you?...now you're back?.....wtf...

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

Well they're already off limits at work. (Could get sued). Gunny was in the military. Flirting on base, while it happens, could get you in trouble. If you're deployed, depending on where you are, doing it off base could get you killed. Not everybody likes the "singles bar" scene. And the way the human brain works, if it's drilled in your head that "Women don't like strangers talking to them" then even when the talk is "appropriate" it's likely not going to come off right. That said, my female friends have told me that the wouldn't have minded someone like me saying "Hello" or even "You look nice" while walking down the street. But maybe that's because I'm so debonair and incredibly handsome. (j/k). And it's nice that your friends haven't had trouble getting dates. Gunny has already stated that he has. You want others to see things from your perspective. You should be willing to see things from their perspective as well.

But I could just as easily say that you should take your own advice here as well, no? Just as some people don't like the singles bar scene, others don't like being propositioned in completely random contexts such as on the street while walking to work.

This whole debate is silly. the GREAT LIE is that women are overwhelmingly victims of sexual harassment. As a man, I'm always dreadfully careful about what I say and do, particularly at work since the modern, feminine workforce requires that I tuck my balls between my legs when at the office. In my experience, women tend to sexually harass men far, far more than the men do to women, since they essentially have a blank check to do so. Let's make a list of unprovoked actions I have experienced (then imagine if a man did them to a woman):

First of all, offering anecdotes of things that have happened to one man (you) is not enough proof to refute anything. You could make the claim that more men are victims of sexual harassment than women, which is entirely possible, but then we'd have to see some concrete statistics. I'm even willing to bet the statistics in such a case wouldn't be reflective of the truth, however, because I'm guessing men would be less likely to report these incidents as harassment.

So, I want to get to your point because I believe feminism does in fact have at least one valuable thing to say on the matter. Let's assume since you're defining these incidents as harassment, that they're unwanted, and that you're interested in reporting them... the fact is that you would probably not be taken seriously. One of the reasons for this is because people generally believe that men seek out sexual attention from anywhere they can get it, and women don't always want sex as much. So incidents where men are harassed tend to be laughed at or completely ignored. Well, a lot of principled feminists, I promise you, take issue with these extremely limited and stereotypical views of male and female sexuality, and want to eliminate any "blank checks" that women have for harassing men. Honestly the only place where I have seen so-called "feminists" laugh at the suggestion that men can be harassed is tumblr, which is full of scum. So I sympathize with you there.

 

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

"Hey, good lookin'; we'll be back to pick you up later."

(That ain't Sammy Hagar in the backseat.)

 

[jmdrake]

But I could just as easily say that you should take your own advice here as well, no? Just as some people don't like the singles bar scene, others don't like being propositioned in completely random contexts such as on the street while walking to work.

And still others actually don't mind or actually like being propositioned in completely random contexts. And still others are happy when the guys/gals they are attracted to approach them in any context and are miffed when the guys/gals they don't like aren't proposition them in any context. So my own advice is don't worry so freaking much about what somebody else thinks. You're not going to please everyone anyway. Don't be a total ass and follow a woman for 5 minutes, but if you throw out a "hello" or a compliment to a stranger and you get rebuffed you really haven't lost anything. Seriously, the last time I was at the DMV I told a female friend how cute the lady behind the counter was. My friend was like "And the reason you didn't try get her number was what exactly?" Oh yeah, and my friend is a liberal feminist. But I guess someone would yank her feminist card if that got out.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

It was a pretty good statistical cross section. There were men who walked by and didn't pay her any attention at all, men who were polite and said "Hello", men who were a bit pushy and said "You're not going to say hello back?"and men who walked beside her and gawked. The only men she didn't negatively acknowledge were the men who totally ignored her as if she didn't exist. So "ban all men" may have been over the top, but "ban all interactions with men" is a straight up accurate "quip."

Actually, I was dead serious. I haven't had a single date in over 8 years. Not because I don't want to, I very much want a family, but because I actually bought the nonsense that I should never, ever make advances under any circumstances, because that's offensive. Now I'm set in it and I don't know anything different. This video and it's defenders are basically saying 'ban all advances because they are offensive.' You do that, and the only men left will be outlaws. At least until they are all rounded up and thrown in prison. And where will that leave the species? Manless. I'll say it again: Ban men. Problem solved.

 

[jmdrake]

Would be nice if was nice girls but not if it is skanky street prostitutes and crack whores, spraying you when they speak with who knows what and touching you with whatever man fluids that are still on their grubby hands. Not liking it.

In other words, the issue is the desirability of the person doing the harassing?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f76_1323277426

 

[juleswin]

If not all feminists are like that, then what are all feminists like? There has to be a central message that justifies giving them a label.

I am with you on this but this is a rather silly question. There cannot be right answer to that your question because all feminists are not the same. A better question would be, what has the non radical feminist ever achieved politically? The problem with non radical feminism is that they have no political, social or financial power. The only feminists practicing their craft in the public space are the batshit crazy ones, the ones who believe in theories like rape culture and patriarchy.

 

[TheTexan]

This whole thread is getting pretty gay.

 

[Philhelm]

First of all, offering anecdotes of things that have happened to one man (you) is not enough proof to refute anything. You could make the claim that more men are victims of sexual harassment than women, which is entirely possible, but then we'd have to see some concrete statistics. I'm even willing to bet the statistics in such a case wouldn't be reflective of the truth, however, because I'm guessing men would be less likely to report these incidents as harassment.

I'm reminded of this guy (who didn't bathe - seriously, he had a 30' stench radius and shared my name, but he was "Stinky Phil") from some of my history classes years ago, in which his default response to any evidence presented during a debate was that it was anecdotal. Frankly, it's a cop-out response. Evidence is evidence, and at some point "anecdotal" evidence starts to pile up. Since it would be impossible to document every case of harassment hypocrisy that women subject men to, you conveniently win the argument because the opposing evidence is "anecdotal." I suppose people should simply cease making observations and forming conclusions based upon those observations because everything is "anecdotal." The bottom line is that in my thirty-four years of existence, I have probably observed thousands of people, and the majority of overt sexual harassment was perpetrated by women, since they do indeed have a blank check, regardless of whether a minority of "feminists" take such things super seriously.

Let's flip the roles from my anecdotes:

1. While at club, strange man walks by and casually slides his hand along her vagina (criminal).
2. Man at office puts his hand around a woman's belt and touches her arm and shoulders frequently (harassment/firing).
3. Man at office states that a bitchy co-worker needs to get laid (harassment/firing).
4. Man touches co-workers in a seductive manner while at work (harassment/firing).
5. Man kisses a scab on a woman's arm while at work (harassment/firing).
6. Male bartender suggests that a regular female patron is a lesbian because she never hit on the men working there (harassment/firing).
7. A man follows a woman to her car, asking for a ride, and tries to open the locked passenger side door to enter the car (criminal).
8. Male sergeant tells junior enlisted female soldier that he will have sex with her if she wants (criminal).
9. A man tells dirty jokes to women at work, without being familiar with them or having established a friendship (harassment/firing).
10. A man asks a female co-worker how many dicks she has sucked (harassment/firing).
11. A man unbuttons a females shirt while at a club (criminal).

The above does not apply to Alpha male studs unless perpetrated in a dark alley.

So, I want to get to your point because I believe feminism does in fact have at least one valuable thing to say on the matter. Let's assume since you're defining these incidents as harassment, that they're unwanted, and that you're interested in reporting them... the fact is that you would probably not be taken seriously. One of the reasons for this is because people generally believe that men seek out sexual attention from anywhere they can get it, and women don't always want sex as much. So incidents where men are harassed tend to be laughed at or completely ignored.

No kidding, but therein lies the problem. In criminal law, for instance, it used to be that two elements needed to be proven: Actus Reus (a bad act) and Mens Rea (bad intent). If, for example, I am in a convenience store and my hands are full so I put a bottle of soda in my pocket but forget to pay for it, I have not technically committed a crime, since there was no criminal intent. With harassment standards, it is not based upon the intent of the so-called harasser, but on the feelings of the "victim." Therefore, two different people could commit the same act of harassment to the same woman but one may be deemed harassment while the other harmless flirting. That's problematic by my estimation.

Well, a lot of principled feminists, I promise you, take issue with these extremely limited and stereotypical views of male and female sexuality, and want to eliminate any "blank checks" that women have for harassing men. Honestly the only place where I have seen so-called "feminists" laugh at the suggestion that men can be harassed is tumblr, which is full of scum. So I sympathize with you there.

That's anecdotal, so I have to pretend that tumblr doesn't exist.

 

[thoughtomator]

I am with you on this but this is a rather silly question. There cannot be right answer to that your question because all feminists are not the same. A better question would be, what has the non radical feminist ever achieved politically? The problem with non radical feminism is that they have no political, social or financial power. The only feminists practicing their craft in the public space are the batshit crazy ones, the ones who believe in theories like rape culture and patriarchy.

Feminism, apparently, is whatever anyone who calls themselves a feminist wants it to be.

The clear answer to the question is a feminist is a woman who is not feminine.