(War on Women) NYC: 10 hours of Harassment or Compliments?

[GunnyFreedom]

I have looked through their site prior to coming here and never denied there might be something like that going on but like I said I do not see a problem with a campaign for civility as long as it does not result in pushing for new legislation.

Except they clearly are pushing for legislation, as has been cited here again and again. I can't imagine why you cannot see it. It's right there in the text. "It shall be a misdemeanor..." is not dialogue, it's law.

They have a very broad range of what constitutes street harassment. The list starts out as what I would have a problem with if they are pushing for new laws for.

Then you should have a problem with it, because they are pushing new laws.

Then it works its way up to threatening, following someone - stalking, blocking, to flashing, sexually touching or grabbing and public masturbation.

If they are seeking to have current laws enforced on the end of that list then more power to them. If they want new laws then I want to see specifically for what items on that list and why the current laws we have now do not cover that aspect of harassment.

And if the 'current' laws are just as twisted and wrong as the laws they want to have passed?

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I never denied the possibility and speculated on that possibility in the course of the thread. Regardless of their intentions I posted these incidents can be scary for woman. There seems to be some here that completely deny that following a woman and behaving in an aggressive manner is actually scary.

Again, this is only taking place in your imagination. Sure some warped individuals do scary and offensive things. Except for direct threats, the freedom of speech is NOT the freedom FROM being offended or scared. The political powers that be are 'scared' of our movement, perhaps the government should outlaw our movement? That's already in line with what you are arguing. If someone is scared there should be a law against what is scaring them. The Liberty Movement scares people, so there should be a law against the Liberty Movement. Is that the kind of country we are fighting for? Because if it is, count me the hell out.

On one hand I believe they maybe doing some good but on the other sure I do see a possibility where this could be going.

Well, the publicly available data on this group demonstrates that they already are "where this could be going" but for some reason you refuse to see the evidence right in front of your face.

I have no idea what to do to fix that.

 

[dannno]

Polite cat calling is a gateway to harder assaults.

 

[presence]

There seems to be some here that completely deny that following a woman and behaving in an aggressive manner is actually scary.

Iran having nuclear weapons is scary, that doesn't mean we should send the military to do anything about it.

The dude that followed her in the video was hardly scary. He was being shy, he thought she was playing shy; if you and I didn't know she was making a vain mockery him it might have been cute.

Where was any aggression displayed in this public service announcement? We both know there was none.

If someone threatens harm that's assault, if someone carries out harm thats battery. We don't need statutory catcalling bullshit to override and befuddle what is already clear common law.

 

[aGameOfThrones]

Polite cat calling is a gateway to harder assaults.

Hey, your post is beautiful.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I never said it was physical assault. I think when people hear the term "cat-calling" the impression is a bunch of guys behind a fence whistling and yelling compliments from a construction site. This video shows it is more upfront and personal in NYC. There are personal space issues that make women nervous since sometimes it leads to more than what happened in the video.

These women are getting together sharing their stores (some stories far worse than the video) and are trying to start a dialogue to say hey this stuff sometimes scares the crap out of us since we never know if it is going to lead to something far worse. It is astonishing you cannot see that but I think you are so completely blinded by partisan style politics everything is black and white for you.

Yep, and marijuana is a gateway drug. Ban it!

Honestly, I am just as confused as to why you can't see this video for what it is: propaganda. Do you honestly believe this feminist organization put out this video just to express how women feel when being cat-called?

And don't give me that "dialogue" bullshit. We're already having a dialogue. Most decent people already don't like this stuff. So what are we really trying to accomplish with this?

What is the solution? Talking about it? Is that going to solve the problem? If we all just talk about it, it'll all go away?

You see, when people use the word "dialogue" connected to women's issues or really anything else political, it usually means we need to talk about legislation. What does it mean when you say it?

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I do not know what is sadder, you making this partisan believing that people are actually calling for that or that you are unable to see what I described on my post you quoted.

That is not to say I am not as skeptical as you and others here that anytime we see anything in the media go viral that we think there is likely some hidden political motivations behind it that will eventually result in pushing for some form of legislation. In this case, so far that does not appear to be the case and perhaps these are women honestly trying to raise awareness and have a dialogue, having been victims of far worse.

The fact of the matter is that nobody's proposing a real solution to this other thank "talk about it." Okay, what's supposed to happen once we're done talking about it? Does anyone have a tangible solution rather than a bullshit "solution." What do you really think talking about it is going to do to solve the problem?

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I have looked through their site prior to coming here and never denied there might be something like that going on but like I said I do not see a problem with a campaign for civility as long as it does not result in pushing for new legislation.

They have a very broad range of what constitutes street harassment. The list starts out as what I would have a problem with if they are pushing for new laws for. Then it works its way up to threatening, following someone - stalking, blocking, to flashing, sexually touching or grabbing and public masturbation.

If they are seeking to have current laws enforced on the end of that list then more power to them. If they want new laws then I want to see specifically for what items on that list and why the current laws we have now do not cover that aspect of harassment.

So, in other words, you would be okay with new harassment laws as long as you approved of them...

Oh, and ALL of the laws we have now are just hunky dory.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I never denied the possibility and speculated on that possibility in the course of the thread. Regardless of their intentions I posted these incidents can be scary for woman. There seems to be some here that completely deny that following a woman and behaving in an aggressive manner is actually scary.

On one hand I believe they maybe doing some good but on the other sure I do see a possibility where this could be going.

What good? How on earth do you expect to make the people who do this, stop? They're not going to stop for you or anyone.

And how was that guy following her acting aggressive? He was walking with her, but that in itself is not aggressive. If she was uncomfortable and wanted him to go away, she should have said something like any normal woman would have.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

The only place I am making this 'partisan' is in your imagination.



There are citations in this very thread from her group wanting to criminalize speech. It's not like you have to go out searching for it.



Dialogue is fine. "Oh we always go through worse, but we were unable to actually capture anything like that on camera when we tried to specifically do so." Yeah, riiiiiiight. They are already talking about laws. Not eventually, now. And that's wrong.

Dialogue is fine, but I'm wondering what anybody wishes to accomplish with this dialogue? Nobody has any idea what positive change this is supposed to bring about, so you can understand why I'm a bit skeptical of this "dialogue." If you ask me, it's just more man-shaming.

Hehe, I invented a new liberal arts college word, "man-shaming." I'm going to start using that now.

 

[kahless]

Gunny, saying they want to prosecute people for saying "Good Morning" is 'hyperbole'. I used 'partisan' since you quoted my reply to PaulConventionWV which I believe meant you were agreeing with his reply. No where in the thread did I claim the actions of the people in the video was violent which PaulConventionWV claimed I was saying. No where in thread did I support them creating legislation for non-threatening words.

Only cat-callers that wear hoodies should be prosecuted.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Dialogue is fine, but I'm wondering what anybody wishes to accomplish with this dialogue? Nobody has any idea what positive change this is supposed to bring about, so you can understand why I'm a bit skeptical of this "dialogue." If you ask me, it's just more man-shaming.

Hehe, I invented a new liberal arts college word, "man-shaming." I'm going to start using that now.

LULZ. Maybe you could get a gov'ment grant to write boring books about it that almost no one will read.

 

[kahless]

So, in other words, you would be okay with new harassment laws as long as you approved of them....

I do not see what possible new law you would need since I believe existing laws cover the issue for sexually touching, grabbing, groping or public masturbation onto another person. What possible loop hole could there be in the sexual assault laws.

What good? How on earth do you expect to make the people who do this, stop? They're not going to stop for you or anyone.

I think they may have done some good here. It went viral in pop-culture and who knows they may have made a few people stop and think. Maybe over a few years it will be socially taboo like the N-word. Doubt it but hey it is worth a shot and more power to them if A group can do that. Just as long as this or another group does not get any legislation past that stifles speech.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Gunny, saying they want to prosecute people for saying "Good Morning" is 'hyperbole'. I used 'partisan' since you quoted my reply to PaulConventionWV which I believe meant you were agreeing with his reply. No where in the thread did I claim the actions of the people in the video was violent which PaulConventionWV claimed I was saying. No where in thread did I support them creating legislation for non-threatening words.

Only cat-callers that wear hoodies should be prosecuted.

I made no such claim. Now who's hyperbolizing?

What I said was that we need to stop acting like they're even related.

Is that last line serious? I can't even tell.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I do not see what possible new law you would need since I believe existing laws cover the issue for sexually touching, grabbing, groping or public masturbation onto another person. What possible loop hole could there be in the sexual assault laws.



I think they may have done some good here. It went viral in pop-culture and who knows they may have made a few people stop and think. Maybe over a few years it will be socially taboo like the N-word. Doubt it but hey it is worth a shot and more power to them if A group can do that. Just as long as this or another group does not get any legislation past that stifles speech.

I don't want it to be THAT taboo. God forbid some guy yell a nice thing at a pretty lady and to everyone else it sounds like he said the N word. Like I said, what do you want to accomplish with this dialogue?

If that's it, then leave me out of it. I think it's taboo enough just the way it is.

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

I don't want it to be THAT taboo. God forbid some guy yell a nice thing at a pretty lady and to everyone else it sounds like he said the N word. Like I said, what do you want to accomplish with this dialogue?

If that's it, then leave me out of it. I think it's taboo enough just the way it is.

If you haven't ever had to deal with it, it's probably prudent for you to refrain from telling everyone else what they should put up with.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

If you haven't ever had to deal with it, it's probably prudent for you to refrain from telling everyone else what they should put up with.

I'm not telling anyone else what to do. I'm asking what this hopes to achieve. You see, the implication is that we're all supposed to do something as a society, but nobody has said what that is yet, except talk about it. But what is the end goal? What part am I supposed to play that I'm not already? If it's a future in which we all treat cat-calling like the N word, then I am not going to have any part in it.

And it doesn't take experiencing it to know it's not hurting you. I've had some pretty hurtful things said to me in the past but I still know that words are only words. They are not fists and they are certainly not illegal or aggressive unless they are direct threats.

 

[kahless]

I don't want it to be THAT taboo. God forbid some guy yell a nice thing at a pretty lady and to everyone else it sounds like he said the N word. Like I said, what do you want to accomplish with this dialogue?

If that's it, then leave me out of it. I think it's taboo enough just the way it is.

If you read any of my replies you would know I have no issue with that -- (like a whistle or something nice from afar). I was only speaking of the more aggressive behavior which can lead to threatening, following, blocking, surrounding and beyond.

I see where you are coming from cat-calling != sexual assault, of course. The point I was trying to make is the fear that women have that some cat-callers aggressiveness and invasion of personal space may lead to sexual assault. I believe that fear is justified and was trying to get you to see that.

A woman never knows for sure sometimes what it is going to be and like I said I see no problem with women organizing a campaign for men to recognize that.

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

I'm not telling anyone else what to do. I'm asking what this hopes to achieve. You see, the implication is that we're all supposed to do something as a society, but nobody has said what that is yet, except talk about it. But what is the end goal? What part am I supposed to play that I'm not already? If it's a future in which we all treat cat-calling like the N word, then I am not going to have any part in it.

Why not? How would a future in which we all treat cat-calling like the N word (no legislation involved) personally affect you? You've already said you don't engage in the behavior, and you supposedly tell your friends not to do it, so...?

 

[PaulConventionWV]

If you read any of my replies you would know I have no issue with that -- (like a whistle or something nice from afar). I was only speaking of the more aggressive behavior which can lead to threatening, following, blocking, surrounding and beyond.

I see where you are coming from cat-calling != sexual assault, of course. The point I was trying to make is the fear that women have that some cat-callers aggressiveness and invasion of personal space may lead to sexual assault. I believe that fear is justified and was trying to get you to see that.

A woman never knows for sure sometimes what it is going to be and like I said I see no problem with women organizing a campaign for men to recognize that.

That's the problem, in bold. You don't make the distinction. You keep saying you think it's terrible, and yet you don't say what you're actually talking about. It's like you're treating cat-calling and actual assault like they're the same thing.

So if you don't make the distinction in the first place, then how was I supposed to know what you were talking about? Where do you draw the line? What's this "more aggressive behavior" you're talking about? Put it in legal terms because it matters.

You also never know when anyone who says hi to you is eventually going to kill you or not, but people need to stop freaking out about random strangers exercising their freedom of speech in public. The point I'm trying to make is that cat-calling is not illegal in any way, shape, or form, and does not violate the NAP in any way, so stop acting like it has anything to do with sexual assault. It doesn't.