Walt Disney World: A Case Study in Anarchy

Deborah K said:
The systems we put in place to try to preserve freedom - no matter what they are - rely solely on the scruples of the people who apply the chosen system.

+1

Because of this, smaller government, over less people, is best. Precincts maximum, really. And this is what would occur were there no central umbrella government - people would form smaller 'governments' or rule agreements locally. And there's a pretty good chance they would work . Until big ones formed a central umbrella gov again, and began coercing the small ones.
 
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Society decides nothing. If you think that because you and a fewother people agree to something, and can therefore force me to abide by an agreement I never consented to, you are a tyrant. You have done nothing but rationalize and deflect, and you are every bit as responsible for the aggressive violence used against peaceful people as those you purport to stand against.

Tyranny by majority is no less oppressive or immoral than is tyranny by a monarh or oligarch. I would prefer if you keep your bloody contract to yourself and not feel the need to foist it upon anyone you wish at the point of a gun.

Have fun in La-La land. :rolleyes: oops....in this case....Didneyland....lol!
 
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Have fun in La-La land. :rolleyes: oops....in this case....Didneyland....lol!

I'm quite sure I will, that is until you come along with your "non-violunt" gun in my face. At which point I'll be faced with the shitty decision of becoming your slave or repressing your violence in kind. Luckily for you, as is usually the case with elites, you'll likely send some untermunchen to take care of your dirty work so my "non-violent" reply will tear his poor flesh rather than the despots who sent him.

Have fun justifying your violence on your day of judgement.
 
As I said before, I'd really like to see something on this. If we could get someone from LRC, or someone along the lines of Tom Woods or John Stossel to cover the market anarchy of WDW it could go a long way to changing public perception of anarchy.

I first heard of Walt Disney World being used as an example of market order from Lew Rockwell. From one of his books, I forget which one. You were not the first one to think of this.


edit: doing a search

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard36.html#_ftnref42

Or, as Spencer Heath urged, on the model of real estate developments, shopping centers, and hotels, couldn't such "collective" or "public" goods as police, fire, roads, sanitation, and so on, be supplied by a large private firm with tenants paying for these services in their rents? [42]

[42 - notes ] Spencer Heath, Citadel, Market and Altar (Baltimore, Maryland: Science of Society Foundation, 1957). For the most developed work on the Heathian proposal, see Spencer Heath, The Art of Community (Menlo Park, California: Institute for Humane Studies, 1970). Disney World is a spectacular example of a successful business firm supplying all of these services out of tourists' fees.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/archives/fm/1-97.html

(didn't quote the entire article)

Moreover, the real triumph of Disney had nothing to do with its movies. This corporation, founded by a hard-core believer in free markets, and a cultural reactionary to boot, has demonstrated new frontiers of private-property creativity. It has erected entire communities of perfect order and freedom organized on the principles of free enterprise.

Disney World is 45 square miles, an area the size of San Francisco.
The rides are the least interesting part. Disney World contains upwards of 300 retail stores, plus nature preserves, streams and lakes, nature trails, recreation areas, yacht clubs, resorts, beach clubs, golf courses, office space, and campsites. There are 12,000 rooms available for rent, and total employment is 35,000, most of them young people who behave themselves because they have to.

Infrastructure like roads and bridges are entirely private, as are police services, fire protection, sewage, and trash disposal. Despite having no taxes or mandates, and being entirely free from outside zoning, this massive park is arguably the best "governed" place on earth. There is no crime, no vandalism, and no sexual profiteering. There are no gangs, no slums, no homeless bums, no panhandlers, and no loiterers. Because it is private, every inch is cared for.

If you're looking to restore the old days of charming architecture and safe, clean streets, look to the Disney created town of Celebration, Florida. Again, it is entirely private. Ten minutes south of the Magic Kingdom, it is a bustling place that will soon be home to 20,000 people. New houses are grabbed up instantly, as are spots in the new private school. There's no cultural rot here. How interesting that it's become the target of left-wing attacks for "artificiality."

The economics literature is always fretting about "public goods" that markets supposedly can't produce, including police protection and infrastructure. Nonsense, said Disney, and proceeded to demonstrate how orderly a micro-society can be when there's no government to push property owners around.

Indeed, Disney World points the way towards solving most of our social and cultural troubles: put more property in private hands. It has even shown us how the immigration problem can be handled. Disney World attracts 30 million visitors per year without disruption.

As economist Fred Foldvary points out, Disney shows that the less government intervenes, the more private enterprise can satisfy human wants; supposed "public goods" are no exception.

The stark contrast between the ordered liberty of Disney World and the deep corruption of the military base is no accident. These two communities demonstrate, in contrasting microcosms, the difference between the market's means of social organization and the government's.

Keep laughing minarchists, the burden is on you to prove that government can work. The lot of you bitch about how horrible even the most basic services the state provides are including law and order and police "protection".
 
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If a country agrees as a whole to the concept of a Constitution and the laws therein, then it cannot be construed to be violently aggressive except to those who are in disagreement of it - in which case they are free to leave the country.

Okay. Let's say there are 10 houses on my block. I get together with the owners of 5 of the other houses, and we agree that we need to start collecting money from everyone on the block to provide needful "services." Like protecting our block from outside aggressors, planting gardens to help feed us all, hiring landscapers to mow our lawns, whatever.

Myself and those other 5 owners all chip in our share. We then go to the 4 remaining houses and request that they do likewise. They refuse, so we get all gunned up and go take it. We then dutifully provide the "services" we promissed.

Is this right? Is it moral?

What if instead we considered my whole neighborhood and did the same thing? Does it then become right or moral?

At what point does violent theft somehow become legitimate, and why? Give me any kind of rational argument that turns a violent crime, no matter how "noble" the motives behind it into something right, good and proper.

You can't. You're just making excuses for the predations you personally approve of, and not even very good excuses at that.
 
I tend to think the subversion of the Constitution has been at the crux of our problems - starting with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 which usurped Congress's authority to issue currency....

1913 made things worse; Lincoln subverted and 'destroyed' the Constitution many years earlier.
 
If a country agrees as a whole to the concept of a Constitution and the laws therein,

What does a "country agreeing as a whole" mean precisely? Does it mean a majority?

How about 12,000 out of 3 million, which is the number of people who voted for representation for the ratification of the constitution?

then it cannot be construed to be violently aggressive except to those who are in disagreement of it

Yep. When two muggers attack one victim, the victim disagrees, and the two muggers are agressing against them. I'm glad you recognize this.

- in which case they are free to leave the country.

Sorry, neither you, nor the majority, nor the government, owns me, my body, or my land. I do. You do not have a right to force me off it because I don't pay your extortion racket.
 
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I do not believe the root of our problems is a central government. I've already argued why the AOC were ineffectual. I am, however, for a limited federal gov't, a limited state gov't, and limited county and city gov'ts.

So let me get this straight. When I point out that the AOC was superior, but interactions between states could have been handled better, the argument is illegitimate because that's not the way things occurred. This despite the fact that there are many examples of nations that have had good relations and free trade between them.

Yet, when you argue that the constitution is superior, but the government could have been better restrained, the argument is legitimate even though that's not the way things occurred. This despite the fact that there is no example of a government that has not grown over time.

Your proposal of a central government that only protects liberty is a lot like a proposal for a giant bohemoth that only gobbles the wicked. It's magical, imaginary, and Utopian. In every example of central government in history the well connected and powerful have controlled it, to their own benefit, at the expense of everyone else.

What's more, it's contrary to the very definition of government as we know it, which includes agressive violence, coersion, and violations of property rights. You cannot protect the rights of the people with an organization whose fundamental charactaristics, and very means of funding, violates them every day.

I believe the root of our problems is the way in which we have issued our currency, and subverted the Constitution, especially as it pertains to the abuse and mis-use of the 16th amendment, which was passed in the same year as the Federal Reserce Act - that was by design. We have slid downhill into a cesspool of gov't expansion and corruption due to those two abominations. Repeal them both and watch the (central) gov't shrink.

Yes, because there are so many examples of governments repealing tyranny, and shrinking over time. Government will magically be filled with angels, who are not corrupt or power seeking. They will have only our best interests in mind.

You imagine that we need a coersive, monopolistic government because people are evil and self interested. But you forget that if people are generally evil and self interested, the government itself will be populated by these same people -- or as usually is the case, far worse -- and because they control an institution as powerful as the government, the evil they do will be much harder to resist.

Ron Paul sought office. Peter Schiff, Rand Paul, and so on....this argument doesn't work.

Of course it does. Ron Paul is the exception, rather than the rule. He's remarkable because he's actually as decent as a normal person. He manages to be in congress and not be a lying theiving bastard like all the rest.

Again, do you think politicians have their reptuation for nothing? Are you seriously going to argue that the average politician is a better, more honest, less power hungry person than the average american? Because that's just beyond absurd.

If we choose, as a people, to have elected representatives, then we should do a better job of holding them accountable.

Who is this "we" that is choosing, praytell? Who is this singular "A" people? There are a large number of people in this country. Are you suggesting that the majority has a right to violently enforce their will on the majority, and control their lives, finances, and bodies?

Again, I don't think ratifying the Constitution is where we went wrong as a people. I think allowing its subversion is where we went wrong and where we are going wrong.

You believe the people can be principled and capable enough to restrain a federal government -- a central, national institution, with no competitors, and a monopoly on agressive violence -- and yet you're going to argue that the people are not principled or capable enough to stop joe blow down the street from creating a gang or mafia?

Either free people themselves, acting on their own volition and with their own resources, are more capable than the government, or they are not. If free people are more capable, why would they need a government? If the people are not more capable, how could they could restrain the government? A government bent on tyranny is the most formidable enemy imaginable. If we can stop it, we can easily obliterate any local wannabe gang.
 
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Your analogy is based on the wrong premise. If a society chooses

How does a "society" "choose"? Only individuals choose. Are you referring to the majority?

a set of rules for itself that include a limited gov't funded through taxation, which was the original intent, then it cannot be considered violent aggression.

Great, so if the majority of those on my block agree to go mug the guy in 14B, it's all cool, because our "society" "chose" it. Is that your position?

We don't own his home, his body, his life, or the fruit of his labor. We have no right steal from him or otherwise attack him no matter how big our gang is.

Heck, by your justification, all manner of tyranny is a-ok. Chattel slavery is fine as long as "society" "chooses" it. Why, if you eat, drink, smoke, or say something I don't approve of, and I lock you in a cage over it, that's a-ok, as long as "society" "chose" the rule.

Stop euphamizing, and excusing violence and theft. You don't own others or their property. Society is not a monolithic singular, it is a number of individuals -- and you're endorsing violence by whoever has the biggest gang at any given time.
 
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Most minarchists/constitutionalists would agree that we live under a government (governments, actually) of delegated powers and authorities.

They would also agree that no individual or group of individuals has the legitimate authority to extract property from another by force, no matter how "noble" the reasons for doing so may be.

Logically, since legitimate government powers are delegated, and no individual or group of individuals has the right to extract property from others by force, there was NEVER any power of taxation to delegate in the first place. One can't delegate a power one doesn't possess.

Sadly, most minarchists/constitutionalists refuse to recognize the contradiction, and go on advocating violent predation. They may rationalize it on the basis of pragmatism, or just refuse to notice it, but these merely serve to ease their consciences, they do nothing to alter the objective fact that they're advocating evil.

Arguing or discussing it usually doesn't accomplish much. The best that can be hoped for, IMO, is to point out the obvious contradiction, and hope at least a few of them eventually acquire the stones to actually face up to it in their own minds.
 
I'm quite sure I will, that is until you come along with your "non-violunt" gun in my face. At which point I'll be faced with the shitty decision of becoming your slave or repressing your violence in kind. Luckily for you, as is usually the case with elites, you'll likely send some untermunchen to take care of your dirty work so my "non-violent" reply will tear his poor flesh rather than the despots who sent him.

Have fun justifying your violence on your day of judgement.

You are typical of many anarchists on this forum. You have zero tolerance for anyone who has a differing opinion and when someone presents an argument that you disagree with or can't refute, you resort to attacks like this one and your previous one.

Your utopian philosophy regarding individual freedom can be just as dangerous as any other system put in place to preserve it. All philosophies, systems, etc. that are put into practice to achieve individual freedom are solely reliant on the scruples of those who apply the chosen system.
 
If you are going to cite an example of anarchy don't cite an example of government because it is not anarchy...

The articles of confederation failed because the states did not want to pay their debts.

Question... why didn't the Articles of Confederation work if limited government is the answer?

Question... why hasn't the Constitution worked if limited government is the answer?

I understand your point but the AOC are considered to be as close to anarchy as we've ever gotten and they failed.
 
Okay. Let's say there are 10 houses on my block. I get together with the owners of 5 of the other houses, and we agree that we need to start collecting money from everyone on the block to provide needful "services." Like protecting our block from outside aggressors, planting gardens to help feed us all, hiring landscapers to mow our lawns, whatever.

Myself and those other 5 owners all chip in our share. We then go to the 4 remaining houses and request that they do likewise. They refuse, so we get all gunned up and go take it. We then dutifully provide the "services" we promissed.

Is this right? Is it moral?

What if instead we considered my whole neighborhood and did the same thing? Does it then become right or moral?

At what point does violent theft somehow become legitimate, and why? Give me any kind of rational argument that turns a violent crime, no matter how "noble" the motives behind it into something right, good and proper.

You can't. You're just making excuses for the predations you personally approve of, and not even very good excuses at that.

In the scenario that you present, I would say the best way to handle it would be to protect the houses that chip in and leave the other houses alone to protect themselves.

It's easy to come up with hypotheticals that are a microcosm of a country that is 300 million strong. I have never once advocated for what our government has turned into since our break from Britain. I am disgusted with what has happened and I've worked hard to try and change it. But because I support the original intent of our founders, somehow that now makes me a bloodthirsty tyrant.

What's happening in this forum is disheartening.
 
You are typical of many anarchists on this forum. You have zero tolerance for anyone who has a differing opinion


When your differing "opinion" includes the assertion that you have the right to send thugs out to rob me at gunpoint, you're damned right I'm intolerant of it. It's not just an "opinion" anymore, it's the advocation of violent predation.


and when someone presents an argument that you disagree with or can't refute, you resort to attacks like this one and your previous one.


Correctly identifying the advocacy of violent crime is NOT an uncalled for attack. It's simply telling the truth.


Your utopian philosophy regarding individual freedom can be just as dangerous as any other system put in place to preserve it.


We can sit here and call each other utopian dreamers all day long. What's accomplished by it? Why not actually address the issues?


All philosophies, systems, etc. that are put into practice to achieve individual freedom are solely reliant on the scruples of those who apply the chosen system.


This is true. Tremendoustie dealt with it quite nicely in one of his more recent posts. The situation is IMMEASURABLY WORSE with a government in place.
 
When your differing "opinion" includes the assertion that you have the right to send thugs out to rob me at gunpoint, you're damned right I'm intolerant of it. It's not just an "opinion" anymore, it's the advocation of violent predation.
What in the hell are you talking about? I've never said I have the right to send thugs to your house. Knock off the strawman analogies and tell me specifically what you're trying to say.
 
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