Violent Revolution Is Counter-Revolutionary

I'll rather DIE on my feet, than DIE on my knees.

The quote it better stated as "I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees"...and it is a quote from an anarchist. I get your change to it, but nowhere did I say self defense isn't ethical. I said violent revolution can't lead to a sustainable stateless society without first a major paradigm shift in the hearts and minds of the masses.
 
The OP did not say that violence is never appropriate or justified.

The OP did not say that "no violence is the solution" to the starvation policies you mention.

The OP was concerned with revolutionary violence, not defensive violence. They are not the same thing.

Tried to rep you, but was out of it. Thank you.
 
You misrepresent what I typed.

I clearly stated

Your position is

My assertion as I wrote it remains in that I don't believe that any significant number of government functionaries can be convinced to give up their power or livelihood with mere words.

What evidence do you have that the human mind cannot change intergenerationally on even the most ingrained social norm? Again, cannibalism, slavery, treatment of women and children, human sacrifice...

The state is merely another bad idea/social norm.
 
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What evidence do you have that the human mind cannot change intergenerationally on even the most ingrained social norm? Again, cannibalism, slavery, treatment of women and children, human sacrifice...

I stated my opinion, one gleaned from several decades of observation, why would I provide evidence of something not at issue?

Government has grown throughout my entire life and it shows no sign of slowing it's growth in breadth or depth in the next decade.

I don't believe there will be anything left of this society in a few decades let alone a few generations.

Kudos to you for preaching peace and instruction but good luck getting through to those in possession of the guns-n-courts..
 
I stated my opinion, one gleaned from several decades of observation, why would I provide evidence of something not at issue?

Government has grown throughout my entire life and it shows no sign of slowing it's growth in breadth or depth in the next decade.

I don't believe there will be anything left of this society in a few decades let alone a few generations.

Kudos to you for preaching peace and instruction but good luck getting through to those in possession of the guns-n-courts..

You are entitled to your opinion, but the full scope of what we know of human history shows no idea is unable to be changed, especially the bad ones, given enough time. Your decades of experience is a tiny blip in that history...it's a tiny sample size. If you expect abolition of the state in your lifetime, I agree...but I was never speaking of the "in our lifetimes" scenario. I'm speaking as a species, can we change a bad idea over a few centuries? The answer empirically is "YES". People in the height of monarchy would make your same argument/state your same opinion about the new idea of republicanism at the start of the 2-3 century process called the Enlightenment. Those guns-n-courts are people...and they too can change their minds over generations (or more importantly, the legitimacy in the minds of the masses that allows them to have their power can change). It's far more sanction of the victim than some insurmountable violent reprisal.
 
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You are entitled to your opinion, but the full scope of what we know of human history shows no idea is unable to be changed, especially the bad ones, given enough time. Your decades of experience is a tiny blip in that history...it's a tiny sample size. If you expect abolition of the state in your lifetime, I agree...but I was never speaking of the "in our lifetimes" scenario. I'm speaking as a species, can we change a bad idea over a few centuries? The answer empirically is "YES". People in the height of monarchy would make your same argument/state your same opinion about the new idea of republicanism at the start of the 2-3 century process called the Enlightenment. Those guns-n-courts are people...and they too can change their minds over generations (or more importantly, the legitimacy in the minds of the masses that allows them to have their power can change). It's far more sanction of the victim than some insurmountable violent reprisal.

My concern is that there won't be enough planet or people left on it to institute a "stateless" society at the rate we're going........

But my grandma had the same concerns and she's long since dead...
 
I realize on the surface this title/statement/conclusion seems illogical and self-contradictory, but give me a moment to make my argument before dismissing it. In having a debate on the limits of the use of defensive force against the state, I wrote most of the following:

Anarchism is a philosophy, most of which denounces murder and terror as a "means to an end" (it's precisely the state's means/method). "Means to an end" is a nonsense argument...the means must be justified in and of themselves or they are simply not justified. Any end at all can be justified via the "ends justify the means" argument. Why? Because what end is justifiable is subjective entirely. What isn't subjective is the means to reach those ends, and therefore they alone must be justified independent of the ends. No ends are so great that they can justify themselves, and justification is by its nature an ethical claim. Ethics apply to actions, not thoughts (or in this case, goals trying to be reached by those actions). The fact an end might be unethical is not a function of the end, but the actions needed to reach that end and maintain that end. A boxing match is voluntary, whereas assault is coerced. Boxing to make a living isn't unethical because of means, not ends...and assault is unethical for precisely the same reason. The end is the same; to make a living by punching people in the face. The means are the defining aspect of the ethical or unethical nature of any act.

You get to a stateless society NOT via force, but via changing enough minds to reach a critical mass. Do you really think a stateless society can be made and maintained by simply murdering and blowing up state buildings? Would Europe have turned to atheism without the Enlightenment ideas that showed the ridiculous and horrific nature of believing in mythologies, but instead just murdered all the clergy and burned all the churches? Of course not. The people in the latter case would just rebuild the churches and name new clergy. You have to change hearts and minds, and expropriation and other violence isn't going to help that at all.

Do I think lands formerly held by the state and their cronies should be taken from them? The state-privileged cronies can't exist for long without the state, and no violent expropriation is needed for them to lose their ill-gotten gains. Who will stop a homesteader on federal lands when the state is abolished? No one. Who can maintain ill-gotten gains of state cronyism when the state no longer is there to give them such economic privileges? No one. Once the state is abolished, students will occupy State Universities, along with staff, and no one can or should stop them. But for them to do it to reach a stateless society will not only fail, but it will be horrible for anarchists trying to make our case to the masses.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and it is horrid public relations (PR). The last part matters just as much as the ethics here, as bad PR slows down the only route to a sustainable stateless society (changing hearts and minds).

And don't mistake a lack of initiated aggression against the mailman as pacifism. But some would claim killing the mailman is self defense against the state, which is bullshit, because the mailman isn't a threat to you, and because doing so brings you no closer to a stateless society.

We can't know for sure who would have what in absence of capitalist privileges and the state. The only way to know is to abolish it and let consumers make free decisions, which distributes resources purely according to making society happier, not according to where it is steered by force. I'm not interested in being a statist by another name, or living in a state by another name. The state is initiated force against those of no threat to them or others, and they do it for themselves and their cronies. How is becoming a one-man state (terrorist) or using statist tactics not making anarchists not-very-anarchistic?

The simple answer is, violent revolution is both unethical and pragmatically doesn't work to get us to a stateless society that can be maintained long term. It's a fit of rage without forethought. I get it, and sympathize, but it leads us to the fact it is a statist tactic to expropriate by force. It's not even necessary, given how consumer demand without state influence will destroy any formation of ill-gotten wealth, any incomes above consumer reward, and any market share gotten and held via capitalist privilege. Change minds about "crony capitalism" ("capitalism", if you prefer, as I do), and by way of that abolish the state/capitalist privileges, and then (and only then) will these injustices melt away justly and sustainably.

Individualists don't want revolution generally, because we see the empirical historical evidence that it has never helped anarchists (we get betrayed by our inevitably more numerous statist "allies"). We have to grow in numbers before a revolution if we want it to end well for us (not how it ended in torture, murder, imprisonment, deportment, exile, etc. for past anarchist revolutionaries). That requires changing hearts and minds, not force. And if we achieve this, and wait even a bit longer, we reach a critical mass where force is barely, or not at all, needed (because the state is an idea, not a real thing - it's just people oppressing other people).

The state is kept alive by a social norm and nothing else: the acceptance socially of extortion (taxation) and other threats of violence against competition and to keep tort liability artificially limited, being legal for some group but not everyone else. This logical, and thereby ethical, inconsistency is the state's lifeblood. It's how it is funded and how it is accepted. If you don't change that social norm via changing hearts and minds, your revolution is doomed to fail like all past ones anarchists took part in. ANYTHING that gets in the way of changing hearts and minds is "counter-revolutionary", including the violent revolution itself.

I will now end this post with a quote, to illustrate why expropriation and violence are largely, or not at all, necessary to reaching a free society (and I argue they are impediments to the only way to reach a sustainable free society; changing hearts and minds):

"Think about it: When the marketplace is really free and competitive (rather than constricted by the state to protect privileged interests), it is we collectively who decide who controls the means of production. We don’t do this in the legal sense, for example, by literally expropriating the assets of some people and transferring them to others. Yet that’s the effect of free competition and individual liberty.

In other words, the freed market would give traditional leftists what they say they want: a society in which free, voluntary, and peaceful cooperation ultimately controls the means of production for the good of all people.

What well-wisher of humanity could ask for anything more?"

--- Sheldon Richman

Are you Sheldon Richman?
 
People in the height of monarchy would make your same argument/state your same opinion about the new idea of republicanism at the start of the 2-3 century process called the Enlightenment.

Yes, we've made so much progress since then. Now, we have voting, God's greatest gift to mankind.
 
“Ideals are peaceful – history is violent.” -- movie quote from "Fury"

Unless you have an example where that violence led to and sustained a stateless society, then it didn't work (for the purposes of my points in the OP anyways). That's my whole point; violent revolution slows down the ability to reach and sustain a stateless society. Violent revolution always serves to reboot the state. Unless we have reached a critical mass in the population with the ideas of anarchism and accompanying political agnosticism among the populace, we will just get another state out of a violent revolution. Is that your goal? If not, drop the idea of violent revolution as a means to get to a free society (or at least drop it until it is clear we've reached that critical mass).
 
Yes, we've made so much progress since then. Now, we have voting, God's greatest gift to mankind.

If you think classical liberalism and republicanism wasn't a radical departure from monarchy, you don't know what those things are and have no historical perspective by which to judge them. That said, I'm an individualist anarchist, and as such am anti-democratic.
 
Unless you have an example where that violence led to and sustained a stateless society, then it didn't work (for the purposes of my points in the OP anyways). That's my whole point; violent revolution slows down the ability to reach and sustain a stateless society. Violent revolution always serves to reboot the state. Unless we have reached a critical mass in the population with the ideas of anarchism and accompanying political agnosticism among the populace, we will just get another state out of a violent revolution. Is that your goal? If not, drop the idea of violent revolution as a means to get to a free society (or at least drop it until it is clear we've reached that critical mass).

That was not, and is not my claim, nor my point. :rolleyes: Spin on.
 
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