Violent Revolution Is Counter-Revolutionary

ProIndividual

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I realize on the surface this title/statement/conclusion seems illogical and self-contradictory, but give me a moment to make my argument before dismissing it. In having a debate on the limits of the use of defensive force against the state, I wrote most of the following:

Anarchism is a philosophy, most of which denounces murder and terror as a "means to an end" (it's precisely the state's means/method). "Means to an end" is a nonsense argument...the means must be justified in and of themselves or they are simply not justified. Any end at all can be justified via the "ends justify the means" argument. Why? Because what end is justifiable is subjective entirely. What isn't subjective is the means to reach those ends, and therefore they alone must be justified independent of the ends. No ends are so great that they can justify themselves, and justification is by its nature an ethical claim. Ethics apply to actions, not thoughts (or in this case, goals trying to be reached by those actions). The fact an end might be unethical is not a function of the end, but the actions needed to reach that end and maintain that end. A boxing match is voluntary, whereas assault is coerced. Boxing to make a living isn't unethical because of means, not ends...and assault is unethical for precisely the same reason. The end is the same; to make a living by punching people in the face. The means are the defining aspect of the ethical or unethical nature of any act.

You get to a stateless society NOT via force, but via changing enough minds to reach a critical mass. Do you really think a stateless society can be made and maintained by simply murdering and blowing up state buildings? Would Europe have turned to atheism without the Enlightenment ideas that showed the ridiculous and horrific nature of believing in mythologies, but instead just murdered all the clergy and burned all the churches? Of course not. The people in the latter case would just rebuild the churches and name new clergy. You have to change hearts and minds, and expropriation and other violence isn't going to help that at all.

Do I think lands formerly held by the state and their cronies should be taken from them? The state-privileged cronies can't exist for long without the state, and no violent expropriation is needed for them to lose their ill-gotten gains. Who will stop a homesteader on federal lands when the state is abolished? No one. Who can maintain ill-gotten gains of state cronyism when the state no longer is there to give them such economic privileges? No one. Once the state is abolished, students will occupy State Universities, along with staff, and no one can or should stop them. But for them to do it to reach a stateless society will not only fail, but it will be horrible for anarchists trying to make our case to the masses.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and it is horrid public relations (PR). The last part matters just as much as the ethics here, as bad PR slows down the only route to a sustainable stateless society (changing hearts and minds).

And don't mistake a lack of initiated aggression against the mailman as pacifism. But some would claim killing the mailman is self defense against the state, which is bullshit, because the mailman isn't a threat to you, and because doing so brings you no closer to a stateless society.

We can't know for sure who would have what in absence of capitalist privileges and the state. The only way to know is to abolish it and let consumers make free decisions, which distributes resources purely according to making society happier, not according to where it is steered by force. I'm not interested in being a statist by another name, or living in a state by another name. The state is initiated force against those of no threat to them or others, and they do it for themselves and their cronies. How is becoming a one-man state (terrorist) or using statist tactics not making anarchists not-very-anarchistic?

The simple answer is, violent revolution is both unethical and pragmatically doesn't work to get us to a stateless society that can be maintained long term. It's a fit of rage without forethought. I get it, and sympathize, but it leads us to the fact it is a statist tactic to expropriate by force. It's not even necessary, given how consumer demand without state influence will destroy any formation of ill-gotten wealth, any incomes above consumer reward, and any market share gotten and held via capitalist privilege. Change minds about "crony capitalism" ("capitalism", if you prefer, as I do), and by way of that abolish the state/capitalist privileges, and then (and only then) will these injustices melt away justly and sustainably.

Individualists don't want revolution generally, because we see the empirical historical evidence that it has never helped anarchists (we get betrayed by our inevitably more numerous statist "allies"). We have to grow in numbers before a revolution if we want it to end well for us (not how it ended in torture, murder, imprisonment, deportment, exile, etc. for past anarchist revolutionaries). That requires changing hearts and minds, not force. And if we achieve this, and wait even a bit longer, we reach a critical mass where force is barely, or not at all, needed (because the state is an idea, not a real thing - it's just people oppressing other people).

The state is kept alive by a social norm and nothing else: the acceptance socially of extortion (taxation) and other threats of violence against competition and to keep tort liability artificially limited, being legal for some group but not everyone else. This logical, and thereby ethical, inconsistency is the state's lifeblood. It's how it is funded and how it is accepted. If you don't change that social norm via changing hearts and minds, your revolution is doomed to fail like all past ones anarchists took part in. ANYTHING that gets in the way of changing hearts and minds is "counter-revolutionary", including the violent revolution itself.

I will now end this post with a quote, to illustrate why expropriation and violence are largely, or not at all, necessary to reaching a free society (and I argue they are impediments to the only way to reach a sustainable free society; changing hearts and minds):

"Think about it: When the marketplace is really free and competitive (rather than constricted by the state to protect privileged interests), it is we collectively who decide who controls the means of production. We don’t do this in the legal sense, for example, by literally expropriating the assets of some people and transferring them to others. Yet that’s the effect of free competition and individual liberty.

In other words, the freed market would give traditional leftists what they say they want: a society in which free, voluntary, and peaceful cooperation ultimately controls the means of production for the good of all people.

What well-wisher of humanity could ask for anything more?"

--- Sheldon Richman
 
"Would Europe have turned to atheism without the Enlightenment ideas that showed the ridiculous and horrific nature of believing in mythologies, but instead just murdered all the clergy and burned all the churches? "

Europe's turn towards atheism didn't happen because of anything religious, no religious war or movement turned Europe towards atheism. European atheism began in the ashes of WWI. Every nation had claimed God was on its side, yet every European nation suffered incredible destruction. Even the victors suffered. People became disillusioned with God in face of the fact that despite being a "Christian" nation, despite being "right" they still suffered.

Of course this argument is only valid if their theology was good. But it wasn't. Not only is war against the basic New Testament theology of Jesus Christ, but the idea that God favors your nation over everyone else isn't a religious idea but a nationalistic one. The failures of WWI theology were not failures of religion, but the failures of the false ideas of statism.
 
'Periodic revolution, “at least once every 20 years,” was “a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.” ' -- Thomas Jefferson 3rd US President (1801-1809)

Hmmmm? Perhaps that's worth some more serious consideration.

An idea whose time is WAAAAAY past due?
 
'Periodic revolution, “at least once every 20 years,” was “a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.” ' -- Thomas Jefferson 3rd US President (1801-1809)

Hmmmm? Perhaps that's worth some more serious consideration.

An idea whose time is WAAAAAY past due?

I think a less controversial way to solve some of these issues is to never allow any law to become permanent in order to force a re-vote some years later. Also, with the knowledge we have now, there should have been protections in the constitution that would prevent the mass-grouping of bills into one giant bill. Don't know how that could easily be avoided without opening up some new loopholes though. An amendment that would make all laws lapse after a certain time is probably easier although getting support for that... Well. Not optimistic about that.

But I think this could be a means to non-violent political 'revolution' since a new generation can more easily have a different view than the previous one. It's much harder to repeal a law than to stop it being re-authorized.
 
You get to a stateless society NOT via force, but via changing enough minds to reach a critical mass

This concept assumes that there are enough minds that can be changed.

The number of people who exist solely by way of the government has long ago exceeded half of the populace.

Included in that majority are those who wield the weapons of domestic war, guns-n-courts......
 
"Would Europe have turned to atheism without the Enlightenment ideas that showed the ridiculous and horrific nature of believing in mythologies, but instead just murdered all the clergy and burned all the churches? "

Europe's turn towards atheism didn't happen because of anything religious, no religious war or movement turned Europe towards atheism. European atheism began in the ashes of WWI. Every nation had claimed God was on its side, yet every European nation suffered incredible destruction. Even the victors suffered. People became disillusioned with God in face of the fact that despite being a "Christian" nation, despite being "right" they still suffered.

Of course this argument is only valid if their theology was good. But it wasn't. Not only is war against the basic New Testament theology of Jesus Christ, but the idea that God favors your nation over everyone else isn't a religious idea but a nationalistic one. The failures of WWI theology were not failures of religion, but the failures of the false ideas of statism.

It started long before that, and it started in the area of theology. It was neo-orthodoxy that brought atheism to Europe. Study church history.
 
Just a warning, I'll be reporting anyone in this thread that advocates using violence to overthrow the government, for criminal violation of the Smith Act.

Listen to ProIndividual. Violence against the state is wrong, and more importantly, illegal.

Sign waving on the other hand is fine. You may continue doing that.
 
"Would Europe have turned to atheism without the Enlightenment ideas that showed the ridiculous and horrific nature of believing in mythologies, but instead just murdered all the clergy and burned all the churches? "

Europe's turn towards atheism didn't happen because of anything religious, no religious war or movement turned Europe towards atheism. European atheism began in the ashes of WWI. Every nation had claimed God was on its side, yet every European nation suffered incredible destruction. Even the victors suffered. People became disillusioned with God in face of the fact that despite being a "Christian" nation, despite being "right" they still suffered.

Of course this argument is only valid if their theology was good. But it wasn't. Not only is war against the basic New Testament theology of Jesus Christ, but the idea that God favors your nation over everyone else isn't a religious idea but a nationalistic one. The failures of WWI theology were not failures of religion, but the failures of the false ideas of statism.

I don't think people became disillusioned with God. I think the organization of the church itself has been a much bigger cause of people abandoning their religion. My late grandmother for instance, the Catholic church didn't want her to meet any protestant peers. This kind of strict behavior which made no sense because those protestants were her neighbors and fine people as well.. And this probably disillusioned them from the church. A side effect of this is many people losing their religion entirely.

I have a number of family members who are still religious, mostly protestants. Some who have become agnostics. They simply stopped going to church and talking about religion. IDK if they pray for themselves, don't care, their business.

But it's certainly not because they felt disillusioned by God.

Today most people who give up their religion do it mostly out of convenience and social pressures I guess. Takes a lot of time to go to church and people have 'better' things to do. Now I never went to church ever, so I have no clue what I'm talking about but I'd have to get a whole lot out of something in order for me to give up my Sunday morning. And if I were religious I'm pretty sure I'd keep it to myself.
 
Just a warning, I'll be reporting anyone in this thread that advocates using violence to overthrow the government, for criminal violation of the Smith Act.

Listen to ProIndividual. Violence against the state is wrong, and more importantly, illegal.

Sign waving on the other hand is fine. You may continue doing that.

So, may I assume that you aren't really an avid supporter of the Texas secession movement? :D
 
Real applications, not fluff.

1930's, Russian is about to starve million Ukranians, yes lets all sing cumbahyah.
1960's, Mao Tse tung POLICIES are about to starve 10 million of your friends and family. Yes, no violence is the solution. The state is not really doing anything to harm you.
 
I completely agree with the OP. Revolution and violence does not come from a worldview of freedom.
 
Real applications, not fluff.

1930's, Russian is about to starve million Ukranians, yes lets all sing cumbahyah.
1960's, Mao Tse tung POLICIES are about to starve 10 million of your friends and family. Yes, no violence is the solution. The state is not really doing anything to harm you.

The OP did not say that violence is never appropriate or justified.

The OP did not say that "no violence is the solution" to the starvation policies you mention.

The OP was concerned with revolutionary violence, not defensive violence. They are not the same thing.
 
This concept assumes that there are enough minds that can be changed.

The number of people who exist solely by way of the government has long ago exceeded half of the populace.

Included in that majority are those who wield the weapons of domestic war, guns-n-courts......

There are plenty of minds to change, 50% has never been required for a paradigm shift (usually 30% changed and 30% agnostic is plenty, or any combination of the two that equates to, give or take, 2/3 of the population), and I think you forget humans used to en masse believe in human sacrifice and cannibalism too. I'm not talking one generation here.
 
There are plenty of minds to change, 50% has never been required for a paradigm shift (usually 30% changed and 30% agnostic is plenty, or any combination of the two that equates to, give or take, 2/3 of the population), and I think you forget humans used to en masse believe in human sacrifice and cannibalism too. I'm not talking one generation here.

You misrepresent what I typed.

I clearly stated
"This concept assumes that there are enough minds that can be changed."

Your position is
"There are plenty of minds to change"

My assertion as I wrote it remains in that I don't believe that any significant number of government functionaries can be convinced to give up their power or livelihood with mere words.
 
Just a warning, I'll be reporting anyone in this thread that advocates using violence to overthrow the government, for criminal violation of the Smith Act.

Listen to ProIndividual. Violence against the state is wrong, and more importantly, illegal.

Sign waving on the other hand is fine. You may continue doing that.

I would say the ethics is more important than the law, not to mention the pragmatics. And you can legally advocate for violence against the state using the 1st Amendment, same as you can yell "fire" in a crowded theater. The issue only arises if someone is harmed or if there is a realistic expectation of the violence being carried out as a result of the speech:

The First Amendment holding in Schenck was later overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot). The test in Brandenburg is the current High Court jurisprudence on the ability of government to proscribe speech after that fact.

In his introductory remarks to a 2006 debate in defense of free speech, writer Christopher Hitchens parodied the Holmes judgement by opening "FIRE! Fire, fire... fire. Now you've heard it," before condemning the famous analogy as "the fatuous verdict of the greatly over-praised Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes." Hitchens argued that the imprisoned socialists "were the ones shouting fire when there really was a fire in a very crowded theatre indeed... [W]ho’s going to decide?"[7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater

Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969), was a landmark United States Supreme Court case based on the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The Court held that government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless that speech is directed to inciting, and is likely to incite, imminent lawless action.[1] Specifically, it struck down Ohio's criminal syndicalism statute, because that statute broadly prohibited the mere advocacy of violence. In the process, Whitney v. California[2] was explicitly overruled, and doubt was cast on Schenck v. United States,[3] Abrams v. United States,[4] Gitlow v. New York (1925), and Dennis v. United States.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

Approximately 215 people were indicted under the legislation, including alleged communists, anarchists, and fascists. Prosecutions under the Smith Act continued until a series of United States Supreme Court decisions in 1957[1] reversed a number of convictions under the Act as unconstitutional.

Appeals from other trials reached the Supreme Court with varying results. On June 17, 1957, Yates v. United States held unconstitutional the convictions of numerous party leaders in a ruling that distinguished between advocacy of an idea for incitement and the teaching of an idea as a concept.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Act


It's illegal to incite a panic or to provably try to, and the same goes for revolution...but if no panic or revolution occurs, or intent cannot be established fully (which is almost impossible) the speech is legal. I think even that goes too far, as that would mean no defensive revolution against democidal government could even be planned, in total violation of the Founders' intent behind both the 1st and 2nd Amendment. I mean, the guns were specifically for overthrow if necessary.

The following song is protected speech, for example:



But thanks for the support on my conclusions, at any rate.
 
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I intended the "Europe to atheism" as a thought experiment, not a historical narrative about why Europe turned to atheism. I would remark, however, if no Enlightenment ideas would have occurred, the change wouldn't have happened anyways. They may have reformed their religious beliefs to fit the results of war or whatever, but turning to atheism and agnosticism and deism are the result of ideas which question god's existence entirely, or at least the level to which god intervenes into the world.
 
Real applications, not fluff.

1930's, Russian is about to starve million Ukranians, yes lets all sing cumbahyah.
1960's, Mao Tse tung POLICIES are about to starve 10 million of your friends and family. Yes, no violence is the solution. The state is not really doing anything to harm you.


I'm sorry, how did either lead to a sustained stateless society exactly? As that was the point of the essay HAD YOU READ IT.
 
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