[VIDEO] Ron Paul "I believe we may be at the end stages of Keynesianism" 10/23/12

[heavenlyboy34]

In answer to Travlyr:

According to Rothbard [Nomos XIX], a state must have one or both of the following characteristics :

1) The ability to tax those who live within it.
2) It asserts and usually obtains a coerced monopoly of the provision of defence over a given area.

Instead of this, according Rothbard, the "anarcho"-capitalist thinks that people should be able to select their own defense companies, which would provide police, courts, etc. These associations would "all... would have to abide by the basic law code"

As far as I understand Rothbard he saw no need for the existence of a state.
The key thing is to define the difference between a State and Government. Thomas Paine said that a government is something that provides of “security and freedom.”
A state however:
(1) acquires its income by the physical coercion known as “taxation”;
and
(2) asserts and usually obtains a coerced monopoly of the provision of defense service (police and courts) over a given territorial area.

An institution not possessing either of these properties is not and cannot be, in accordance with Rothbard said and my understanding, a state. But it could be a government based on a voluntary association of people.

It's kind of a waste trying to explain these things to Trav. He either doesn't understand classical liberalism and libertarianism or pretends not to just to troll ya.

 

[fr33]

That is all fine and dandy. What I am sharing with you is that I have spent much of my life visiting with farmers, land owners, owners of commercial real estate, developers, homeowners, and many people of influence in county governments. They are not philosophers. They understand the state in a much different way. If the liberty philosophy is going to be promoted as an anarchist philosophy with the intent to do away with the state and government as they know it, then the liberty movement just as well be shooting themselves in the foot if not the chest because it will be DOA with those folks. If you don't believe me, then go to where the farmers meet for coffee each morning, tell them all about your anarchist philosophy, and see for yourself.

I am a farmer and landowner and live amongst such people. It's equally challenging to convince them that Muslims are people too, Israel is an apartheid state, and that the drug war should be ended.

 

[Travlyr]

I am a farmer and landowner and live amongst such people. It's equally challenging to convince them that Muslims are people too, Israel is an apartheid state, and that the drug war should be ended.

A land owner deals directly with the County Clerk and Recorder, the Sheriff, the Road Commissioner, and County Commissioners. How is that not more real than the propaganda of someone else's religion and prohibition?

 

[Travlyr]

It's kind of a waste trying to explain these things to Trav. He either doesn't understand classical liberalism and libertarianism or pretends not to just to troll ya.

At least I talk about the issues rather than just come into threads for the fun of "pwning" others or working to discredit them.

Message to: CCTelander
Message from: heavenlyboy34 - 09-02-2012 10:22 PM

"Thanks for the +rep man. 'Twas fun pwning Trav tonight. ttyl."

BTW HB34, if you were to actually read my rebuttal to alex_florida, instead of posting your usual standard personal attack, you would have learned that I understood and agreed with him in principle but offered a thoughtful response to help him understand me and my friends so that he could consider whether or not to continue his course of action or take a different tack.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

At least I talk about the issues rather than just come into threads for the fun of "pwning" others or working to discredit them.



BTW HB34, if you were to actually read my rebuttal to alex_florida, instead of posting your usual standard personal attack, you would have learned that I understood and agreed with him in principle but offered a thoughtful response to help him understand me and my friends so that he could consider whether or not to continue his course of action or take a different tack.

Actually, I did deal with an issue:

He either doesn't understand classical liberalism and libertarianism or pretends not to just to troll ya.

This comment deals with an action you performed, not you personally. Back to logic and rhetoric 101 with you before you try to engage in real conversation.

If you read our respective histories, you'll find that you are the one consistently dealing in personal attacks (and a physical threat or two). I prefer to mow down your logical fallacies and outright incorrect statements.

 

[Travlyr]

Actually, I did deal with an issue: This comment deals with an action you performed, not you personally. Back to logic and rhetoric 101 with you before you try to engage in real conversation.

No, that is direct attack on my credibility. It is called Poisoning the Well.

Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.

It is inappropriate, it is against forum guidelines and I have asked you to leave me alone. Debate the issues and leave my name out of your discussions.

If you read our respective histories, you'll find that you are the one consistently dealing in personal attacks (and a physical threat or two). I prefer to mow down your logical fallacies and outright incorrect statements.

You are a liar. I made no physical threat here on RPF. That fight was brought to RPF from another Internet world by CCTelander.

More Poisoning the Well by a disingenuous liar.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

No, that is direct attack on my credibility. It is called Poisoning the Well.


It is inappropriate, it is against forum guidelines and I have asked you to leave me alone. Debate the issues and leave my name out of your discussions.

Again, this is not a personal attack. It is a legitimate debate technique and within forum guidelines. If you stuck with the issues yourself, you wouldn't find yourself brought into discussion.

You are a liar. I made no physical threat here on RPF. That fight was brought to RPF from another Internet world by CCTelander.

More Poisoning the Well by a disingenuous liar.

I am not a liar. You used a threat of violence (a throat punch) and were temp-banned for it. If you understood the poisoning the well fallacy, you'd know it doesn't apply here. Study the logical fallacies harder.

I hope this issue is settled now. But if you must, now that you know you have no argument, -rep me again. Or perhaps some more petty insults.

 

[sailingaway]

Actually, I did deal with an issue: This comment deals with an action you performed, not you personally. Back to logic and rhetoric 101 with you before you try to engage in real conversation.

If you read our respective histories, you'll find that you are the one consistently dealing in personal attacks (and a physical threat or two). I prefer to mow down your logical fallacies and outright incorrect statements.

quit attacking him. He responded reasonably. You seem to get great pleasure by provoking him to the point where you both are banned. Cut it out.

 

[sailingaway]

No, that is direct attack on my credibility. It is called Poisoning the Well.


It is inappropriate, it is against forum guidelines and I have asked you to leave me alone. Debate the issues and leave my name out of your discussions.


You are a liar. I made no physical threat here on RPF. That fight was brought to RPF from another Internet world by CCTelander.

More Poisoning the Well by a disingenuous liar.

Let's stop at this point. Pissing matches don't need to be carried on on the public pages, you two should exchange phone numbers or something.

 

[Travlyr]

Back on topic.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lewrockwell-show/2012/10/23/316-the-prairie-fire-of-freedom/

This is a great interview of Ron Paul by Lew Rockwell. It is well worth the time if you have the time.

And I stand by everything I said in this thread. My intention is to inform. The Classical Liberals I quoted in this thread, John Locke, Ludwig von Mises, Ron Paul, and Murray Rothbard have heavily influenced my own philosophy. I understand Classical Liberalism just fine. I do hold some disagreement with Rothbard, but I agree with most of what he stood for especially concerning money. "The Mystery of Banking" is extraordinary.

 

[asurfaholic]

, you two should exchange phone numbers or something.

Ive been eating popcorn watching the thread and this made me laugh out loud.. Brings funny images to my mind..

 

[green73]

This is a really good interview.

Front page?

 

[sailingaway]

Front page?

I did find a youtube, I just didn't like to take it from Lew's site, but it probably had the traffic it is going to get at this point.

--
edit - OK, I put the youtube into the OP and promoted it to the front page

 

[Jingles]

If you don't realize Ron Paul is an AnCap after this, then idk what to tell you.

 

[robskicks]

If you don't realize Ron Paul is an AnCap after this, then idk what to tell you.

ancap?

 

[awake]

Keynes simply created a very believable but false structure of economics that pleased the state and justified its criminal nature. Keynes validated a legion of thieves, and continues to do so. In return he was bestowed great prestige and worship from the ruling elite from which men of his mental ability can not resist. He is the prototypical intellectual whoring himself to the criminal elements of the state in return for professional recognition and notoriety.

The rest of us have to live in their crimes and sins.

 

[fr33]

A land owner deals directly with the County Clerk and Recorder, the Sheriff, the Road Commissioner, and County Commissioners. How is that not more real than the propaganda of someone else's religion and prohibition?

A landowner is more likely to get along better with his neighbors than he is with those government officials you listed. We don't need them. We can get along fine without them. I'm more capable of maintaining the roads in my area than the goons hired to do it.

 

[fr33]

ancap?

Anarcho Capitalist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

 

[Travlyr]

A landowner is more likely to get along better with his neighbors than he is with those government officials you listed. We don't need them. We can get along fine without them. I'm more capable of maintaining the roads in my area than the goons hired to do it.

They are his neighbors.