[Video] Is Oil Price Speculation a Bad thing?

[The Free Hornet]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...E4UxHFywY7cdCA9XA&sig2=iWsdAV8Ar-Xs1FFbNM0Ulg

please , please read this link.
this is a very good read.

What was good about it? Here is the recommendation:

This is an important step, but limiting speculators in the oil markets doesn't go far enough. Even with the restrictions currently in place, those eight investment banks alone can severely inflate the price of oil. Federal legislation should bar pure oil speculators entirely from commodity exchanges in the United States. And the United States should use its clout to get European and Asian markets to follow its lead, chasing oil speculators from the world's commodity markets.

I don't want to finance a government capable of bullying the whole fucking world. If you think the price of oil is 40% too high (the only substantial claim of the article), then you can make a fortune waiting for the artificially high price to collapse. You are asserting a specific level of manipulation in one direction (up). There are billions of dollars waiting for you if correct.

Here is a better article:

Today's higher prices not only prompt us to conserve more, they also prompt oil producers to intensify efforts to supply more. Oil deposits that are unprofitable to exploit at lower prices become profitable to exploit at higher prices.

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/oped/boudreaux-don-t-curse-the-oil-speculators-1.3645329

Commies - not unlike the rabid environmentalist - love to see government as the solution to any perceived problem. I suppose you believe that we could cut the price of oil by 40% and NOT see a massive uptick in usage (which would promote shortages and price spikes)? Is cheaply available oil increasing or decreasing in supply? Why shouldn't the price be higher? Or is this like the Bernanke's of the world that curse the ever-rising price of gold and silver which lays bare their lies and money printing?

Many a progressive would love for gas, oil, gold, and silver to price controlled and consumption limited (rationed). Thanks for supporting their agenda.

 

[The Free Hornet]

President Barack Obama will call on Congress today to bolster federal supervision of oil markets, including increased penalties for market manipulation and greater power for regulators to increase the amount of money traders must put up to back their energy bets. [ha ha ha]

We're playing with monopoly money and TPTB are just finding uses for all the extra cash they create. Government ought to just slash every bill and salary check it cuts and tell the recipient to 'stuff it' if they complain. It's a shell game and you're too stupid to realize you're losing.

Speculators as a problem is a joke! My opinon is biased as I have big bets on silver and gold going up, up, up!

 

[ILUVRP]

"Many a progressive would love for gas, oil, gold, and silver to price controlled and consumption limited (rationed). Thanks for supporting their agenda. "

i have never said anything about controlling any market , raising the margin requirements on only crude oil is not controlling anything , controlling over $100,000 worth of crude with about $6,000 is very stupid , if the true hedgers want to hedge then they could do so with 70-75% magrin and make them take delivery of the crude when the contract expires. if they honestly think crude oil is heading higher ( thats why they headge on the long side ) then they will still do great.

i repeat i am not saying anything about metals-grains-softs or any other commodity , i was trading gold/silver when the CFTC came down on hunt-an arab-a south anerican when they tried to corner the silver market , the cftc raised margins , limited the number of contracts a non heager could have ( hunt should have bought a small silver mine before he started ) , all of which were wrong . hunt went on call for hundards of millions of dollars , it broke him.

who really cares how high silver/gold goes , no person needs either , we can't eat them or burn them in our cars/trucks/trains/planes , some heavy hitters must have been very short the silver mkt so they changed the rules of the game , thats all it is .

if they want to play the crude oil game then they will have to pay more , it would not effect the true hedgers like South West Airlines.

i will add rep boehner had it right when he said obama had all the tools he needs , he has the cftc , to obama its all about getting reelected.

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

Panties in a bunch? I thought you were the commie? But seriously, if you advocate elimination of speculation of any market, it is fair to call you a commie. Statist might be more suitable but commie works fine because you are advocating a police state intervention into free transactions. If you eliminated the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, only the force of government could prevent a new one from arising. Even then, you would then have to fight the black markets and workarounds that spring up to fill the void. You may not like the crude market or the players in it, but the futures market is not a cause for great concern.

Lots of government controlled markets could be criticized. E.g., Intrade and elections - is a more rigged market in existence??? This doesn't mean Intrade should not be left alone.

What was good about it? Here is the recommendation:

I don't want to finance a government capable of bullying the whole fucking world. If you think the price of oil is 40% too high (the only substantial claim of the article), then you can make a fortune waiting for the artificially high price to collapse. You are asserting a specific level of manipulation in one direction (up). There are billions of dollars waiting for you if correct.

Here is a better article:

Commies - not unlike the rabid environmentalist - love to see government as the solution to any perceived problem. I suppose you believe that we could cut the price of oil by 40% and NOT see a massive uptick in usage (which would promote shortages and price spikes)? Is cheaply available oil increasing or decreasing in supply? Why shouldn't the price be higher? Or is this like the Bernanke's of the world that curse the ever-rising price of gold and silver which lays bare their lies and money printing?

Many a progressive would love for gas, oil, gold, and silver to price controlled and consumption limited (rationed). Thanks for supporting their agenda.

We're playing with monopoly money and TPTB are just finding uses for all the extra cash they create. Government ought to just slash every bill and salary check it cuts and tell the recipient to 'stuff it' if they complain. It's a shell game and you're too stupid to realize you're losing.

Speculators as a problem is a joke! My opinon is biased as I have big bets on silver and gold going up, up, up!

*You must spread some reputation around before giving it to The Free Hornet again*

Damn! I owe you a few +1

He has absolutely no understanding of how prices work & how speculation works, all he knows is using government force to facilitate some IMAGINED benefit he THINKS he'll receive - typical commie scum

These commie scum are the reason we don't have our freedoms, these pro-government, anti-market, anti-freedom are the very reason that we live a life controlled by the stupid government, politicians & bureaucrats

 

[ILUVRP]

commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum

don't you know anything else , in the military i had a TS clearence , i doubt if you have any idea how tough it is to get one , i also had one for over 25 yrs working on things keep a eye on ah's like you.

i am retired now , just golf a lot , but it looks like you don't work , just beat up the keyboard all day , or you could be on unemployment drawing food stamps. if not get a job.

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

i have never said anything about controlling any market ,

Government trying to control prices & interfering in the private businesses without them violating anyone's rights, that IS controlling the market

raising the margin requirements on only crude oil is not controlling anything ,

It means CONTROLLING THE MARGINS, the private market should decide what margins are sufficient as it's their property but I suppose commies don't like freer markets & property-rights

controlling over $100,000 worth of crude with about $6,000 is very stupid ,

You muppet, it ALSO means people SELLING $100,000 at $6,000 margin, which BALANCES THE EQUATION; nobody buys until someone sells

Anti-market commie scum always focus on the BUY side but always overlook the SELL side, as usual the sell-side just doesn't exist for them

if the true hedgers want to hedge then they could do so with 70-75% magrin and make them take delivery of the crude when the contract expires. if they honestly think crude oil is heading higher ( thats why they headge on the long side ) then they will still do great.

You brickhead, they could easily invest that additional margin-money elsewhere more productively to help the economy, why should that money be stuck just because some economically illiterate commie scum thinks it's the "right" margin; that's the central-planning we're talking about where government decides how business "should" run; what else to expect from commies!
Besides, raising margins will drastically reduce liquidity & volumes & therefore spreads will be larger & massive uncertain moves, will destabilize the hedgers & will hurt the producers by way of higher costs; all because commie central-planners think it's the "right" margin

i repeat i am not saying anything about metals-grains-softs or any other commodity ,

It won't long before other commie scum will demand more "regulation" elsewhere, that's the nature of government, it always tries to grow

i was trading gold/silver when the CFTC came down on hunt-an arab-a south anerican when they tried to corner the silver market , the cftc raised margins , limited the number of contracts a non heager could have ( hunt should have bought a small silver mine before he started ) , all of which were wrong . hunt went on call for hundards of millions of dollars , it broke him.

I guess you didn't notice that many of their board-members were short on silver & that's why they brought Hunt down, otherwise they would've gotten wiped out
And why should the government tell anyone where to put their money & what they can or can't buy - oh wait, you support communist-dictatorship!

if they want to play the crude oil game then they will have to pay more , it would not effect the true hedgers like South West Airlines.

You muppet, they'll be affected by the price spikes instead of smoother price-discovery process that liquid markets lead to but you're too economically illiterate to anything about that, comrade!

i will add rep boehner had it right when he said obama had all the tools he needs , he has the cftc , to obama its all about getting reelected.

Oh! Look at the commie egging his tzar!

who really cares how high silver/gold goes , no person needs either , we can't eat them or burn them in our cars/trucks/trains/planes

Great! Now, everybody here knows what an economically illiterate moron you are!

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum commie scum

don't you know anything else , in the military i had a TS clearence , i doubt if you have any idea how tough it is to get one , i also had one for over 25 yrs working on things keep a eye on ah's like you.

i am retired now , just golf a lot , but it looks like you don't work , just beat up the keyboard all day , or you could be on unemployment drawing food stamps. if not get a job.

Don't worry about me, commie! I don't believe in freeloading like you do!

I hope you'll love your misery when your tzar controls & destroys every part of the market!

 

[ILUVRP]

if i were long a contract and sold it there is no margin ,only when i bought the contract or shorted a contract.

whow , now you are worring about the CBOT members being wiped out by freetrade like bunker hunt , he's just buying silver ( sort of like GS/JPMORGAN ) , i just have a hard time finding out what you want and which way you want things to be.

did you forget to take your pills again?

don't worry , i will remind you every day.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Treatment of Others: Site members are expected to use the following standards in the treatment of others:

+ Be respectful of others users.
+ No insulting, antagonizing or personally attacking other users.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...ge-Guidelines-and-Other-Important-Information

 

[ILUVRP]

Don't worry about me, commie! I don't believe in freeloading like you do!

I hope you'll love your misery when your tzar controls & destroys every part of the market!

i have always voted for RP , it is too bad he won't win but i will write his name in as always.

i guess to win he would have to be a chicken-hawk neo-con , you can understand that .

 

[The Free Hornet]

if they want to play the crude oil game then they will have to pay more , it would not effect the true hedgers like South West Airlines.

So you are advocating a government solution...

How is Southwest a "true hedger"? I buy ~$2000 in gas annually, can I play without risking your margin wrath, accusations of greed, or the risk of taking physical delivery? I doubt I'm zoned to store crude oil.

Here is more to read in defense of speculation:

http://articles.marketwatch.com/200..._speculators-futures-markets-commodity-prices
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/hoarders-speculators-and-other-scapegoats/

Your school of thought is old - possibly ancient. Are you of the opinion that all this time we ought to be paying 40% less? This school of thought also claims that oil use is inelastic so that a 40% price decrease would not be paired with an increase in consumption. That people won't change their behavior at $2.40/gallon vs $4/gallon....

 

[ILUVRP]

lets get crude oil up to $200/ba and gasoline to $8/ga , then we would use less.

read up on how much crude oil we have in storage in Oklahoma , also read how the US uses 400 million gal of gas a day , at the same time we export about 120 million gallons of gasoline a day .

there is no shortage of crudes / cracks

 

[The Free Hornet]

lets get crude oil up to $200/ba and gasoline to $8/ga , then we would use less.

read up on how much crude oil we have in storage in Oklahoma , also read how the US uses 400 million gal of gas a day , at the same time we export about 120 million gallons of gasoline a day .

there is no shortage of crudes / cracks

Why would I read about reserves (government or private)? The more reserves we have, the bigger a buffer we have to any shocks. If anything, reserves would likely lower the price (read about hoarders in an emergency, for example). Regarding our export of gasoline. We important oil and we export gas because gas is a refined product made in the USA and oil is a raw material import. We don't export gas due to an abundance of oil but due to an abundance of highly efficient refining capacity. We have Standard Oil to thank for that and competitors quickly realized that high efficiency - not government intervention - is the best way to compete. That legacy serves us to this day.


Edit: ILUVRP, I read about Cushing. What was your point? So they have "5-10%" of our oil reserves. That's what they do. Should I complain about the price of eggs because some trading post has lots of eggs?

As the oil fields started to run dry, starting in the 1940s, production and refining became less important. However, the maze of pipelines and tanks that had been built led to the NYMEX choosing Cushing as the official delivery point for its light sweet crude futures contract in 1983.

Facts and knowledge are distinct entities.

 

[ILUVRP]

"we export gas because gas is a refined product"

thats great info , why don't we just export 400 million gal a day , that would drive gas to $25/gal , we would drive less , now i am starting to understand how the system works.

as far as chushing goes , they have all the crude oil they can hold . i am trying to say there is no shortage of crude oil in america , or gasoline.

 

[The Free Hornet]

"we export gas because gas is a refined product"

thats great info , why don't we just export 400 million gal a day , that would drive gas to $25/gal , we would drive less , now i am starting to understand how the system works.

as far as chushing goes , they have all the crude oil they can hold . i am trying to say there is no shortage of crude oil in america , or gasoline.

You may have to close your eyes for this one Brian.

First, America is a net importer of crude:

There may not be a shortage due to untapped fields, but the strategic reserves are only sufficient to cover a few months of imports although it would take a half year to empty them:

The United States maintains a Strategic Petroleum Reserve at four sites in the Gulf of Mexico, with a total capacity of 727 million barrels (115.6×106 m3) of crude oil. The maximum total withdrawal capability from the United States Strategic Petroleum Reserve is 4.4 million barrels (700,000 m3) per day. This is roughly 32% of US oil imports, or 75% of imports from OPEC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_the_United_States

Thinking the US has enough oil is like thinking you have enough gas for a cross-country trip because your Ford Taurus has a full tank. I.e., idiotic.

Regarding refining, courtesy of Uncle Sam, here is the breakdown in the cost of gasoline:

We export gas because we have an excess of refining capacity. If we didn't export gas, we would either make less or look for ways to use, sell, or store the excess. Or we start shutting down refinery lines for no good reason. What affect would this have on the market? The price of gas would go up overseas. People not currently in the gas exportation business would sniff a huge opportunity!!!

You are correct that we don't have shortages, but how is that relevant? We have as much gas and oil as people are willing to buy at the present prices.

What are you trying to say? You went from bitch-and-moan mode about speculators to talking about oil reserves and refining capacity. These are not pertinent to your global quest to regulate* oil speculating. These are people doing exactly what you falsely and maliciously pretended to want: taking physical delivery of the fucking oil.

Make a point or troll somewhere else.




* I say regulate because you can't end speculation. You can control to a degree who legally profits but speculation is a fact of life. Deal with it.

 

[ILUVRP]

we give big oil companies over $4 billion every year , they export about 120 millions of gasoline to keep prices high ( and also make more money ) , i guess the next time they need our military to help them out and protect their overseas interests they should get help from the countries they are selling gasoline to.

does anyone think that if Ron Paul were POTUS he would allow giving big oil co's $4b a year and keep bases all over the world in part to protect oil co's interests?

there is one answer , the answer is NO.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

we give big oil companies over $4 billion every year , they export about 120 millions of gasoline to keep prices high ( and also make more money ) , i guess the next time they need our military to help them out and protect their overseas interests they should get help from the countries they are selling gasoline to.

does anyone think that if Ron Paul were POTUS he would allow giving big oil co's $4b a year and keep bases all over the world in part to protect oil co's interests?

there is one answer , the answer is NO.

srsly? Big Oil's CEO compensation is none of your damn business. If the dollar were sound, you could get gas for ~a dime/gallon (check the dollar/pm ratio to verify for yourself).

 

[The Free Hornet]

we give big oil companies over $4 billion every year , they export about 120 millions of gasoline to keep prices high ( and also make more money ) , i guess the next time they need our military to help them out and protect their overseas interests they should get help from the countries they are selling gasoline to.

does anyone think that if Ron Paul were POTUS he would allow giving big oil co's $4b a year and keep bases all over the world in part to protect oil co's interests?

there is one answer , the answer is NO.

I thought before maybe you were full of facts and just lacked wisdom. Now I don't know what you're full of. The actual gasoline exports are much much, much higher and dwarf $4 billion dollars:

In 2011, U.S. refiners exported 117 million gallons per day of gasoline, diesel, jet fuel and other petroleum products, up from 40 million gallons per day a decade earlier.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2011-12-31/united-states-export/52298812/1

To answer your questions, gas is expensive because oil is expensive. Why you bitch about exports is beyond me but it is PROOF you don't care about stopping your statist interventionalism with oil speculators (who could easily be replaced by gas or diesel speculators - what's your thought on that if you have one?). Speculators are just a scapegoat for a power grab.

Your so-called $4 billion in subsidies must be contrasted with an $88 billion dollar export industry. In 2006, the Federal gas tax alone raised $25 billion (link). Local taxes double that number. ~$50 billion in fuel taxes to an unsourced $4 billion in subsidies. Who is getting subsidized here?

Regarding overseas exploits, although I don't doubt some malfeasance in the oil industry (*cough* Haliburton *cough*), there is no need to "control" the oil. As regards the oil industry, other countries have two things: dirt and oil. They can't eat dirt so they have to sell the oil. They can't refine as efficiently as us (!) so we get a piece of that action too. The US as a whole did not profit from the wars. For proof, our prices have doubled, our debt has quadrupled or more, and we don't have a lot more cash to show for it. The war is so irrational, it is very hard for me to think there are many winners. It is raw, unadultered irrationality. The people making massive profits are just a pen stroke away from going out of a very nasty business. It is not unlike socialism, a massive exercise in the misallocation of resources.

Again, I don't think our overseas bases or exploits benefit the oil industry specifically but I am happy to see evidence to the contrary. Obviously, the wars should end and the superfluous bases closed ASAP. Regardless, this has ZERO to do with your gripe of oil speculation which was shot down in flames. Big government needs oil more than oil needs big government. They'd be happy with government at its 1889 size.

1) Do you still support specific limits on oil speculation?
2) Do you think Ron Paul does as well? [duh, no]

We know Ron Paul would not support your statist plans to end oil speculation. You put forth a proposition that disagrees with his limited-government platform. So why the fuck do you ask, "does anyone think that if Ron Paul were POTUS he would allow giving big oil co's $4b a year and keep bases all over the world in part to protect oil co's interests?". You accept him as an authority for argumentation only when convenient? Do you not realize he would say - more or less - "Well as President I can bring the troops home - the commander in chief has that authority. The tax policies and subsidies have to be changed in Congress but I would definitely support ending BOTH the subsidies AND the taxes!".

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I thought before maybe you were full of facts and just lacked wisdom. Now I don't know what you're full of. The actual gasoline exports are much much, much higher and dwarf $4 billion dollars:



To answer your questions, gas is expensive because oil is expensive. Why you bitch about exports is beyond me but it is PROOF you don't care about stopping your statist interventionalism with oil speculators (who could easily be replaced by gas or diesel speculators - what's your thought on that if you have one?). Speculators are just a scapegoat for a power grab.

Your so-called $4 billion in subsidies must be contrasted with an $88 billion dollar export industry. In 2006, the Federal gas tax alone raised $25 billion (link). Local taxes double that number. ~$50 billion in fuel taxes to an unsourced $4 billion in subsidies. Who is getting subsidized here?

Regarding overseas exploits, although I don't doubt some malfeasance in the oil industry (*cough* Haliburton *cough*), there is no need to "control" the oil. As regards the oil industry, other countries have two things: dirt and oil. They can't eat dirt so they have to sell the oil. They can't refine as efficiently as us (!) so we get a piece of that action too. The US as a whole did not profit from the wars. For proof, our prices have doubled, our debt has quadrupled or more, and we don't have a lot more cash to show for it. The war is so irrational, it is very hard for me to think there are many winners. It is raw, unadultered irrationality. The people making massive profits are just a pen stroke away from going out of a very nasty business. It is not unlike socialism, a massive exercise in the misallocation of resources.

Again, I don't think our overseas bases or exploits benefit the oil industry specifically but I am happy to see evidence to the contrary. Obviously, the wars should end and the superfluous bases closed ASAP. Regardless, this has ZERO to do with your gripe of oil speculation which was shot down in flames. Big government needs oil more than oil needs big government. They'd be happy with government at its 1889 size.

1) Do you still support specific limits on oil speculation?
2) Do you think Ron Paul does as well? [duh, no]

We know Ron Paul would not support your statist plans to end oil speculation. You put forth a proposition that disagrees with his limited-government platform. So why the fuck do you ask, "does anyone think that if Ron Paul were POTUS he would allow giving big oil co's $4b a year and keep bases all over the world in part to protect oil co's interests?". You accept him as an authority for argumentation only when convenient? Do you not realize he would say - more or less - "Well as President I can bring the troops home - the commander in chief has that authority. The tax policies and subsidies have to be changed in Congress but I would definitely support ending BOTH the subsidies AND the taxes!".

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to The Free Hornet again." Will hit ya with some +rep ASAP.

 

[ILUVRP]

HB "srsly? Big Oil's CEO compensation is none of your damn business. "

show me where i have EVER said anything about CEO compensation . i said co's ( companies ).

i agree it is no one's business except share holders / board of directors what any ceo makes.



TFH , what is it i am missing here , i did say above that we export about 120 million a day , the $4 billion that the american tax payer give to oil companies is in the form of sub's.

good grief .

as far as a sound $$ goes , as far back as i can remember the only sound currency in the world is the swiss franc.

the dollar has been a POS since 1913 , it always will be .