Gary Johnson Video: Elect One of Our Own. One Time.

[Revolution9]

Yea, GJ did absolutely nothing.

Noted. Thanks for the input.

Rev9

 

[ronpaulhawaii]

So now GJ can control all areas of law enforcement? Sorry, but I don't think your witch hunt holds water. PA and other states have directed law enforcement to not focus on small drug offenses, yet their prisons are still full of non-violent drug offenders. And you're citing blogs now? Come on.

It is well understood that the executive is the head of the law enforcement. You conflate strawmen as a form of debate and again are putting words in my mouth. That is dishonesty on your part and a sad reflection of your candidate

I'm well aware the governor appoints the parole board, but where do you get the idea the power to appoint means 15 members will carry out GJs will?

Uh, it their job to follow the directives of the executive. Read the 411 link again

The issue here is you make assumptions to connect the dots. Gary can appoint, therefore the board will do as he dictates. Gary can request law enforcement move focus, therefore those convicted of non-violent drug offenses will be reduced. It doesn't work that way. You imagine scenarios and use those scenarios to back your opinion. You're basically saying, "He should have done this, and if he did, it would have worked and everything would be fine." How can you say that, even in hindsight, with nothing to back it up? I just don't get it.

Again putting words in my mouth and trying to put me on the defensive… The latter won’t happen and the former is unethical (which touches on another problem I have with GJ, lots of his supporters/staff are rude liars who try to grow their base by attacking the Paul’s.)

So....

1.) Show me one non-violent drug offender that applied for a pardon who was denied by GJ.

We'll go from there. Also feel free to post your solutions.

Spin and insult my behind. I'm asking you to provide actual data to support your argument, but you haven't done so.

The fact that he went the corporate prison route is well documented and is disgusting to me. He is a cold, calculating, ego driven man. I suspected this after campaigning for Kokesh in NM, and confirmed it after traveling across Iowa with him for RAGBRAI…

If he was such a statist, backed by the establishment, and such a trojan horse you'd think his "masters" would have put a little more effort into making him a force...

Who called him a statist? Not me. You are building fields of strawmen to avoid the real issues here.

@ronpaulhawaii http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v7a-YvPJ2c

Yea, GJ did absolutely nothing. Just kept quiet, didn't make any announcement, etc etc. All sarcasm if you didn't catch that

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you didn't actually research what GJ did or has done regarding this issue, simply saw that he built private prisons, and went on the attack.

You think this is an attack? LMAO! I have much bigger venues that I could do that in, if I wanted to… FTR - My base objection to GJ was formed after meeting him several times.

Here on RPFs I am sick and tired of seeing people who are trying to hurt Ron Paul posting with insult and spin trying to pimp their brand of “lessor evils” Fact is that there is a lot I admire about Johnson, but not the kind of things I vote for. I personally think he is using the LP as a flag of convenience to climb another mountain. And I know that pimping him here hurts Ron Paul and the efforts I have given the last five years of my life for.

Maybe he did commute hundreds of sentences, maybe he didn’t, I do note that he makes “unofficial” claims in this video and find it strange that you are having trouble finding verifiable evidence of such. I also find it strange that one of his own supporter is the one that made the claim that he did not pardon drug offenders.

More importantly, I am getting sick of repeating myself that I am talking about “victimless crimes” of which drug offenses are but a section. You keep putting words in my mouth and tearing down strawman that you are setting up. And that is dishonest.

One thing about Paul supporters is they are honest (for the most part), and I find the opposite with GJ shills.

@RonPaulHawaii http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n1047.a07.html

Want to lie some more and say GJ didn't pardon non-violent drug offenders as governor?

Another strawman and this time you are so busted. The girl he pardoned was in for robbing someone of $1000. That is not a victimless crime.

And show me where I lied or admit your accusation is a lie.

Bottom line is that this is still Ron Paul forums, and that I support Ron Paul. Supporting Gary Johnson hurts Paul in many ways and I’ll be damned if I’m gonna sit quiet while a bunch of shills try to destroy Paul’s (and all true Paul supporters) work

 

[Nathan Hale]

Bottom line is that this is still Ron Paul forums, and that I support Ron Paul. Supporting Gary Johnson hurts Paul in many ways and I’ll be damned if I’m gonna sit quiet while a bunch of shills try to destroy Paul’s (and all true Paul supporters) work

FUCK that. We all support Ron Paul, but this is not some cult where we all have to goose step a certain way because YOU think that its what the Glorious Leader wants. I've been a libertarian for a LONG time, and I've been familiar with both Paul and Johnson since waaaay before most members here even knew who either man was. If I took a time machine back to 2004 and I approached a libertarian and told them that in 2012 we'd be dealing with the kind of shit I've seen on these boards, that libertarian would laugh me out of the room and rightly so. This is BULLSHIT. Gary Johnson's campaign benefits the liberty movement, it doesn't hurt Paul's plan to take over the GOP, and opposition to it seems to be totally centered around some cultist-like perceived slight by Gary against Ron rather than any of these fake reasons you drum up to lend credence to an otherwise bankrupt argument.

 

[Wren]

FUCK that. We all support Ron Paul, but this is not some cult where we all have to goose step a certain way because YOU think that its what the Glorious Leader wants. I've been a libertarian for a LONG time, and I've been familiar with both Paul and Johnson since waaaay before most members here even knew who either man was. If I took a time machine back to 2004 and I approached a libertarian and told them that in 2012 we'd be dealing with the kind of shit I've seen on these boards, that libertarian would laugh me out of the room and rightly so. This is BULLSHIT. Gary Johnson's campaign benefits the liberty movement, it doesn't hurt Paul's plan to take over the GOP, and opposition to it seems to be totally centered around some cultist-like perceived slight by Gary against Ron rather than any of these fake reasons you drum up to lend credence to an otherwise bankrupt argument.

Neg rep.

Look way up. Let me spell that out for you: R-O-N P-A-U-L forums, not LIBERTARIAN forums. People came here for RON PAUL, not the [L] party and whatever candidate you throw at us. This forum is centered around one man whom people trust. This isn't the [L] version of democratic underground. If you can't accept that, then maybe you shouldn't be here until they stop calling this place "Ron Paul Forums". You wanna call us a cult because there's only one guy we trust for the presidency? My God, what an effing cult.

"Woah, they're only supporting ONE person in a forum centered around that ONE person? Shit, what a cult!"

You [L] party shills make me sick. Keep that weakling Johnson to yourself.

 

[Wren]

FUCK that. We all support Ron Paul, but this is not some cult where we all have to goose step a certain way because YOU think that its what the Glorious Leader wants. I've been a libertarian for a LONG time, and I've been familiar with both Paul and Johnson since waaaay before most members here even knew who either man was. If I took a time machine back to 2004 and I approached a libertarian and told them that in 2012 we'd be dealing with the kind of shit I've seen on these boards, that libertarian would laugh me out of the room and rightly so. This is BULLSHIT. Gary Johnson's campaign benefits the liberty movement, it doesn't hurt Paul's plan to take over the GOP, and opposition to it seems to be totally centered around some cultist-like perceived slight by Gary against Ron rather than any of these fake reasons you drum up to lend credence to an otherwise bankrupt argument.

www.reddit.com/r/libertarian
www.reddit.com/r/garyjohnson
www.garyjohnsongrassroots.com
www.dailygary.com

off the top of my head. youre welcome.

 

[Nathan Hale]

Neg rep.

Look way up. Let me spell that out for you: R-O-N P-A-U-L forums, not LIBERTARIAN forums. People came here for RON PAUL, not the [L] party and whatever candidate you throw at us.

Let me spell something else out for you: F-O-R-U-M-S. Not C-H-U-R-C-H.

This forum is centered around one man whom people trust. This isn't the [L] version of democratic underground. If you can't accept that, then maybe you shouldn't be here until they stop calling this place "Ron Paul Forums". You wanna call us a cult because there's only one guy we trust for the presidency? My God, what an effing cult.

This forum regularly discusses allied candidates, and in 2008 we hosted a robust and favorable debate about alternative presidential candidates.

You [L] party shills make me sick. Keep that weakling Johnson to yourself.

And there's the truth. This has nothing to do with forum standards, this is all a bitter rant by a hater.

 

[Wren]

Let me spell something else out for you: F-O-R-U-M-S. Not C-H-U-R-C-H.



This forum regularly discusses allied candidates, and in 2008 we hosted a robust and favorable debate about alternative presidential candidates.



And there's the truth. This has nothing to do with forum standards, this is all a bitter rant by a hater.

This is the tired standard line of attack from johnson fans. If you don't support or trust him then you're part of a "cult". Hate to break it to you, but not everyone here is a hardcore party-voting libertarian like yourself. Some people, or I would say most due to this site's name and purpose, came here for Ron Paul because we trust him. A standard party bearer like yourself doesn't seem to get that and insist on calling us a "cult". For that, you get opposition here. Gary Johnson doesn't interest me and he doesn't interest many others, because he doesn't get it. Problem with the Johnson fans is that they insist on defending him, no matter what he says, not seeing the illogical fallacies in some of the positions he espouses or his poor debating style. I could say Johnson ate babies and his fans would rush to counter it. Reminds me a lot like the obamabots. I don't know if you heard his interview with Robert Wenzel, but the man is a complete pandering tool. He is a typical clueless politician who doesn't understand at least half of the policies he advocates.

 

[ronpaulhawaii]

FUCK that. We all support Ron Paul, but this is not some cult where we all have to goose step a certain way because YOU think that its what the Glorious Leader wants. I've been a libertarian for a LONG time, and I've been familiar with both Paul and Johnson since waaaay before most members here even knew who either man was. If I took a time machine back to 2004 and I approached a libertarian and told them that in 2012 we'd be dealing with the kind of shit I've seen on these boards, that libertarian would laugh me out of the room and rightly so. This is BULLSHIT. Gary Johnson's campaign benefits the liberty movement, it doesn't hurt Paul's plan to take over the GOP, and opposition to it seems to be totally centered around some cultist-like perceived slight by Gary against Ron rather than any of these fake reasons you drum up to lend credence to an otherwise bankrupt argument.

Objecting to the use of corporate prisons (with all their pitfalls) is a "bankrupt argument", says the crew who depends on strawmen, and ad-hom fallacies to avoid discussing the very real problems with corporate prisons and the type of politician who would think them a good solution to a bad problem...

For myself, I've never been an "Libertarian". I looked at the party last century, when I first started getting interested in politics. I saw them as unrealistic then, and see many as both that, and very rude (now that I've had years of personal experience with members.) Hell, I think even the GOP is more civil.

And the GOP definitely gets a hell of a lot more done... Bottom line is that if I am going to sacrifice my time to any "party" I am going to do that with the most effective I can and right now Ron Paul has been blazing a path into the heart of the GOP, asking people to follow, and enjoying amazing success. Turning off that path to support GJ hurts that strategy. This is not rocket science. Whatever people do in their voting booth is their own business, what we do on Ron Paul Forums is everyone's business... Again, this is not rocket science.

This is the tired standard line of attack from johnson fans. If you don't support or trust him then you're part of a "cult". Hate to break it to you, but not everyone here is a hardcore party-voting libertarian like yourself. Some people, or I would say most due to this site's name and purpose, came here for Ron Paul because we trust him. A standard party bearer like yourself doesn't seem to get that and insist on calling us a "cult". For that, you get opposition here. Gary Johnson doesn't interest me and he doesn't interest many others, because he doesn't get it. Problem with the Johnson fans is that they insist on defending him, no matter what he says, not seeing the illogical fallacies in some of the positions he espouses or his poor debating style. I could say Johnson ate babies and his fans would rush to counter it. Reminds me a lot like the obamabots. I don't know if you heard his interview with Robert Wenzel, but the man is a complete pandering tool. He is a typical clueless politician who doesn't understand at least half of the policies he advocates.

+rep

 

[DeMintConservative]

This is the tired standard line of attack from johnson fans. If you don't support or trust him then you're part of a "cult". Hate to break it to you, but not everyone here is a hardcore party-voting libertarian like yourself. Some people, or I would say most due to this site's name and purpose, came here for Ron Paul because we trust him. A standard party bearer like yourself doesn't seem to get that and insist on calling us a "cult". For that, you get opposition here. Gary Johnson doesn't interest me and he doesn't interest many others, because he doesn't get it. Problem with the Johnson fans is that they insist on defending him, no matter what he says, not seeing the illogical fallacies in some of the positions he espouses or his poor debating style. I could say Johnson ate babies and his fans would rush to counter it. Reminds me a lot like the obamabots. I don't know if you heard his interview with Robert Wenzel, but the man is a complete pandering tool. He is a typical clueless politician who doesn't understand at least half of the policies he advocates.

Ouch. That was painful to watch.

 

[TheTexan]

Heh, this is what GJ said in the video, I just thought it was funny

When it came to pardoning.. non-violent drug offenders in New Mexico, in this case these were offenders who had actually carried out their sentences, whether that was actual time in jail, or probation, or whatever

Let's "pardon" people after they do their prison time!!! LOL

 

[TheTexan]

By the way, that's just another example of many of Gary Johnson being a manipulative snake.

 

[Wren]

Heh, this is what GJ said in the video, I just thought it was funny



Let's "pardon" people after they do their prison time!!! LOL

He confuses pardoning with commuting until Wenzel corrects him. Gary Johnson doesn't want to pardon federal prisoners who are there for marijuana crimes, he wants to commute them. Pardon is an "executive forgiveness of crime"; commutation is an "executive lowering of the penalty." A "pardon wipes out the conviction while a commutation leaves the conviction intact but wipes out the punishment." To commute he's saying, "I'm not pardoning the crime." I'm not a lawyer, but this is my basic understanding of the two terms

 

[Wren]

Let me spell something else out for you: F-O-R-U-M-S. Not C-H-U-R-C-H.



This forum regularly discusses allied candidates, and in 2008 we hosted a robust and favorable debate about alternative presidential candidates.



And there's the truth. This has nothing to do with forum standards, this is all a bitter rant by a hater.

Also, you're right, liberty candidates are discussed here all the time. Just not when they're in direct competition with the man we're supporting. And even if Ron drops out, the presidency is seen as a much bigger office that people are less willing to compromise on like say the house or senate candidates. Gary Johnson has too many compromising positions or too little understanding of his *own* positions for people to take him seriously.

 

[TheTexan]

He confuses pardoning with commuting until Wenzel corrects him. Gary Johnson doesn't want to pardon federal prisoners who are there for marijuana crimes, he wants to commute them.

At least in the video that was linked earlier, he sounded like a big advocate of clemency, and not really for commuting. Clemency is forgiveness after time is served (a clear record).

 

[Wren]

At least in the video that was linked earlier, he sounded like a big advocate of clemency, and not really for commuting. Clemency is forgiveness after time is served (a clear record).

Clemency, my bad. Commuting is the wrong term

 

[rockandrollsouls]

So I provide you video proof that he's commuted sentences. He's granted pardons. It's still not good enough for you or anyone else here. I show you one, and you say "Show me more."

Yet prior to that information, you and others were claiming he's never pardoned a prisoner, never commuted a sentence, etc etc. You guys sure know how to change your tune right quick.

Show me prisoners of non-violent drug crimes he's turned away. You still haven't done so. Instead, you turn around and take the proof I've provided you and say "that wasn't a non-violent drug crime," when the governor clearly explains the commuting of the sentence was due in large part because it was to support a drug habit.

Listen, long story short it's evident you have personal issues with GJ, but it's one thing to have your opinion and another to make baseless claims about someone's record to further your own opinion. I don't like Mitt Romney, but I'm not going to go around and make something up, like saying he eats children, just to tarnish his name further.

Fact of the matter is I've been on here just as long as you have and I've been supporting liberty and liberty candidates through the years at LEAST as hard, if not harder. To claim I'm trying to "hurt" Ron is nonsensical. I'm one of the FEW here that was leary of the official campaign from the get-go and SUGGESTED we have a strong contingency plan to get the nomination for him. Oh, wait, that's right, when I said that YOU and other criticized me then just as you are now. You're completely off your rocker to say I'm "shilling" for GJ when I was prepared from the get-go and you sheep followed and trusted Benton, AGAIN.

Considering Ron, The Judge, Kokesh, Jesse, even AJ have come out in support of GJ I think it's a safe bet considering none of you can work together, the official campaign was never serious, and no one can communicate with anyone. Further, since you need someone so pure and trusting, have fun warring it out with each-other as Ron finally appeases the establishment and keeps his mouth closed so Rand has a shot down the line. And that's a fact. Ron is selling out the movement right now for Rand, right or wrong take it how you want but for those of you that want liberty so badly and give me and other's trash for casting a vote for GJ in the general since Ron likely won't be there when you yourselves aren't even critical of Ron for not doing the right thing in this instance, you're HYPOCRITES. There's no other word for it.

That, to me, is what's most unbelievable. You'll nitpick GJ, but when it comes to the guys you are supporting actually selling you out you bite the bullet. That is hypocrisy at its finest.

And again, I'll direct you to the forum's mission statement that's been here since its inception. Inspired by Ron Paul, but in support of all avenues to restore a constitutional republic. So don't try to tell me I and others don't belong here and it's RP only territory. Blatant lie to further your own agenda. Just disgusting.

It is well understood that the executive is the head of the law enforcement. You conflate strawmen as a form of debate and again are putting words in my mouth. That is dishonesty on your part and a sad reflection of your candidate



Uh, it their job to follow the directives of the executive. Read the 411 link again



Again putting words in my mouth and trying to put me on the defensive… The latter won’t happen and the former is unethical (which touches on another problem I have with GJ, lots of his supporters/staff are rude liars who try to grow their base by attacking the Paul’s.)


The fact that he went the corporate prison route is well documented and is disgusting to me. He is a cold, calculating, ego driven man. I suspected this after campaigning for Kokesh in NM, and confirmed it after traveling across Iowa with him for RAGBRAI…



Who called him a statist? Not me. You are building fields of strawmen to avoid the real issues here.



You think this is an attack? LMAO! I have much bigger venues that I could do that in, if I wanted to… FTR - My base objection to GJ was formed after meeting him several times.

Here on RPFs I am sick and tired of seeing people who are trying to hurt Ron Paul posting with insult and spin trying to pimp their brand of “lessor evils” Fact is that there is a lot I admire about Johnson, but not the kind of things I vote for. I personally think he is using the LP as a flag of convenience to climb another mountain. And I know that pimping him here hurts Ron Paul and the efforts I have given the last five years of my life for.

Maybe he did commute hundreds of sentences, maybe he didn’t, I do note that he makes “unofficial” claims in this video and find it strange that you are having trouble finding verifiable evidence of such. I also find it strange that one of his own supporter is the one that made the claim that he did not pardon drug offenders.

More importantly, I am getting sick of repeating myself that I am talking about “victimless crimes” of which drug offenses are but a section. You keep putting words in my mouth and tearing down strawman that you are setting up. And that is dishonest.

One thing about Paul supporters is they are honest (for the most part), and I find the opposite with GJ shills.



Another strawman and this time you are so busted. The girl he pardoned was in for robbing someone of $1000. That is not a victimless crime.

And show me where I lied or admit your accusation is a lie.

Bottom line is that this is still Ron Paul forums, and that I support Ron Paul. Supporting Gary Johnson hurts Paul in many ways and I’ll be damned if I’m gonna sit quiet while a bunch of shills try to destroy Paul’s (and all true Paul supporters) work

 

[rockandrollsouls]

Except for the fact he commuted sentences.... Really, I don't understand what the problem is. You complain he doesn't commute sentences or pardon, yet he commutes sentences and pardons. So now you go to "I think he really just prefers clemency." No matter what the guy does, you just talk it down further. Doesn't matter if it's GJ or the flying spaghetti monster!

You guys chew up the liberty candidates faster than you chew up Romney and Obama. It's a damned shame.

At least in the video that was linked earlier, he sounded like a big advocate of clemency, and not really for commuting. Clemency is forgiveness after time is served (a clear record).

 

[TheTexan]

Except for the fact he commuted sentences.... Really, I don't understand what the problem is. You complain he doesn't commute sentences or pardon, yet he commutes sentences and pardons. So now you go to "I think he really just prefers clemency." No matter what the guy does, you just talk it down further. Doesn't matter if it's GJ or the flying spaghetti monster!

You guys chew up the liberty candidates faster than you chew up Romney and Obama. It's a damned shame.

I'll try to overlook the blatant dishonesty in your post (that I've "claimed" anything on this subject), and just say I was simply pointing out the discrepancy in what GJ claimed he would do, and what he claimed to have done, compared to what he actually did. I was hoping for a more productive resolution to this question than simply troll baiting me into another senseless argument into you (mission accomplished), as his response seemed blatantly dishonest (you two seem to have that in common).

To go into more detail,

"Would you pardon all federal non-violent drug offenders?"

Uh, yes. [his emphasis, not mine] And I did this as Governor of New Mexico

No, he didn't. He "commuted" 2. I don't know if that counts as a pardon, but you know what? I'll give him those 2. It's still a dishonest reply. He says "Yes" to the question of whether he would pardon all federal non-violent drug offenders, and the manner in which he says "yes" implies a conviction he's unable to back up in either words or actions. His actions as governor definitely doesn't match that description ("I did this as Governor of New Mexico"), and his twisting of words ("pardon" vs clemency, two very different things), in addition to his narrow set of parameters (drug users who have served their sentence and have since had clean records), displays a very high level of dishonesty. On top of that, when the other guy in the video brings up this point, the narrow set of parameters, and asks him how he feels about drug sellers, Johnson avoids answering the question directly and instead just calls them "understood."

With that said, I'm out of this thread. Was good talking to ya again rockandrolltrolls!

 

[Nathan Hale]

This is the tired standard line of attack from johnson fans. If you don't support or trust him then you're part of a "cult".

That's not at all what I'm saying. That's just what you *WANT* me to be saying because it's a contrived convenience for your weak position.

Hate to break it to you, but not everyone here is a hardcore party-voting libertarian like yourself.

Like me? Assumptions are your business, and business is good.

Some people, or I would say most due to this site's name and purpose, came here for Ron Paul because we trust him.

I'm here because I trust Ron Paul too - he's a great part of this movement.

A standard party bearer like yourself doesn't seem to get that and insist on calling us a "cult". For that, you get opposition here.

I don't refer to these boards as a cult, I've been with these boards from the start! I make the cultist joke about the small minority of people on here who attempt to squash legitimate, liberty-oriented debate and conversation because it dares to question the primacy of putting all focus and attention on Ron Paul all the time.

Gary Johnson doesn't interest me and he doesn't interest many others, because he doesn't get it.

I like horsies.

Aren't opinions wonderful?

As in 2008, this forum is the perfect place to talk about the future of the liberty movement in this presidential election. Perhaps Gary isn't *your* cup of tea - that's fine. We welcome an enthusiastic debate on these forums, but respect that this is the place to debate it because a lot of people here disagree with you.

 

[Nathan Hale]

Objecting to the use of corporate prisons (with all their pitfalls) is a "bankrupt argument", says the crew who depends on strawmen, and ad-hom fallacies to avoid discussing the very real problems with corporate prisons and the type of politician who would think them a good solution to a bad problem...

So we're both guilty of lumping. I apologize.

For myself, I've never been an "Libertarian". I looked at the party last century, when I first started getting interested in politics. I saw them as unrealistic then, and see many as both that, and very rude (now that I've had years of personal experience with members.) Hell, I think even the GOP is more civil.

The LP is a horrible party with a long history of bad choices. I was attracted to them when I first discovered my political identity, and I worked for years to try and bring them around to accepting they were an actual political party and not some debate society - you could imagine how I was treated for that. What excites me about them lately is that they're finally coming around to embracing a bigger tent and political action. But yes, for the longest time they were populated by tip-of-the-diamond minarchists, which made debate a rather rude affair.

And the GOP definitely gets a hell of a lot more done... Bottom line is that if I am going to sacrifice my time to any "party" I am going to do that with the most effective I can and right now Ron Paul has been blazing a path into the heart of the GOP, asking people to follow, and enjoying amazing success. Turning off that path to support GJ hurts that strategy. This is not rocket science. Whatever people do in their voting booth is their own business, what we do on Ron Paul Forums is everyone's business... Again, this is not rocket science.

I think the dichotomy you draw - that we either support Operation GOP or we support the Libertarian Party - is a false dichotomy. Voting Libertarian this year does not derail the Pauls' efforts in the GOP and in fact helps along the cause of liberty. After all, we had no problem supporting the few liberty candidates who ran on the Democrat ticket.