VERY Important - I never thought I would see this happen so soon

[NocturnalC]

I don't own a home, but I have a car loan as my only current debt. I paid off everything else including my student loans. Is it best in this volatile time to pay off my car debt as quick as possible and then invest in gold/silver or invest in metals right now? Currently I put about $1500 towards my car a month.

What about my roth IRA?

 

[DrCap]

It seems the consensus here is DIVERSIFY

having a little something in everything... of which I one may consider like insurance policies against bad economics. Some paper, some cd, some metal, some in the us market, some in int'l markets, and weapons and food are always good.
Personally I like to have a lot of books too, since if the power is out, I could at least read in the day time.

 

[devil21]

This topic (scary one!) brings up a question in my mind. If we are in line for an economic meltdown in the near future, what are thoughts on using available debt load (such as a bunch of unsecured credit) to invest in silver, gold, etc? If the market crashes, wouldn't debts like unsecured credit pretty much be worthless to the creditor, while you have stashed away the gold?

Hypothetical question of course but Im curious about using the failure of the credit system and the dollar against itself. Spare me the rightous arguments...Id rather survive.

 

[Andrew-Austin]

How soon should I move away from this country? How much time do I have before moving becomes impossible?

 

[susano]

This topic (scary one!) brings up a question in my mind. If we are in line for an economic meltdown in the near future, what are thoughts on using available debt load (such as a bunch of unsecured credit) to invest in silver, gold, etc? If the market crashes, wouldn't debts like unsecured credit pretty much be worthless to the creditor, while you have stashed away the gold?

Hypothetical question of course but Im curious about using the failure of the credit system and the dollar against itself. Spare me the rightous arguments...Id rather survive.

Are you saying use credit cards to buy gold?

 

[devil21]

Are you saying use credit cards to buy gold?

Essentially yes. I have well over $100K in available credit and receive gobs of "convenience checks" from credit cards and lines of credit to use however I want.

EDIT: They want me to buy into the system even further by frittering the money away but could we beat them at their own game by purchasing something that holds its value while the dollar doesnt?

 

[Dave Pedersen]

Essentially yes. I have well over $100K in available credit and receive gobs of "convenience checks" from credit cards and lines of credit to use however I want.

EDIT: They want me to buy into the system even further by frittering the money away but could we beat them at their own game by purchasing something that holds its value while the dollar doesnt?

Those who think they can run up their line of credit may find Blackwater knocking their door in unannounced around 2am to collect all your valuables on behalf of the power brokers. I would not assume they will forgive your debt so easily. Even people with mortgages are vulnerable to foreclosure.

Even if they are making the payments I understand the financial institutions can demand full payment and then where will people go to get a new mortgage to cover the demand? When houses lose 90% of their value will the bankers allow people to keep their 20% equity intact? This is just speculation on my part and I am no expert but it seems to me if collateral goes down far enough it no longer sustains the mortgage.

 

[susano]

Essentially yes. I have well over $100K in available credit and receive gobs of "convenience checks" from credit cards and lines of credit to use however I want.

EDIT: They want me to buy into the system even further by frittering the money away but could we beat them at their own game by purchasing something that holds its value while the dollar doesnt?

You would have to be in a position to pay the credit card payments, though. I presume you aren't, otherwise you wouldn't need to charge it, lol. Now, perhaps you're thinking of charging some gold and then disappering. That's another matter. It might be criminal, as in fraud.

 

[susano]

Those who think they can run up their line of credit may find Blackwater knocking their door in unannounced around 2am to collect all your valuables on behalf of the power brokers. I would not assume they will forgive your debt so easily. Even people with mortgages are vulnerable to foreclosure.

Even if they are making the payments I understand the financial institutions can demand full payment and then where will people go to get a new mortgage to cover the demand? When houses lose 90% of their value will the bankers allow people to keep their 20% equity intact? This is just speculation on my part and I am no expert but it seems to me if collateral goes down far enough it no longer sustains the mortgage.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but most mortgages cannot be called in for full payment. In foreclosue, you owe the amount on the mortgage. If you can't sell for that amount, there goes your equity.

Having said that, there was recent ruling by an Ohio judge, against Deutsche Bank. Turns out a bunch of people being foreclosed on had had there mortages sold, multiple times, and no one bank had the notes or titles.

 

[AceNZ]

I don't think this situation is as complex as some would have you believe.

1. Due to a bunch of different factors -- the war, the credit fiasco, monetary policy, etc -- the US dollar is collapsing (not "is going to collapse" -- it's already started).

2. The US has been in a recession for some time.

3. Declining prices are unlikely. Bernanke has written and spoken extensively about this. He has said, in no uncertain terms, that he won't allow that to happen to any significant degree.


The cure for declining prices is inflation. One mechanism for inflation is the lowering of interest rates. Lower interest rates further damages the dollar.

Another reason why I believe #3 is that as the dollar collapse continues, foreign holders of dollars will continue to dump them -- one way they do that is by buying US assets, like businesses, skyscrapers, land, etc. The result is even more inflation. So much so, in fact, that hyperinflation (>50% per year) is the real risk.

As a result of #1 above, stocks, bonds and banks are bad places to have your money. Even money market funds are at risk. Real estate in the US is also likely to continue to decline in value for some time.

Good places to have your money are in hard assets such as metals and commodities like wheat, corn and natural gas -- you can think of them like hedges against what you pay for food. They have been going up steadily even though the stock market is dropping. I like gold better than silver because it's not as bulky, though an argument can be made for both. Bullion coins like the Maple Leaf are best (lowest margin over gold content), though there are some vaulted storage companies that are also very good (I'm partial to BullionVault, who also will give you about $20 worth of gold when you open an account).

You might also consider foreign currencies. Commodity currencies like the Canadian, Australian and New Zealand dollars should be stronger that the US dollar. The Swiss Franc and the Euro should also do well. If you can swing an account in NZ (where I live), interest rates on basic savings accounts here are close to the highest in the industrial world, at 7.6% or so. 9% is easily achieved in reliable commercial bonds.

For the person who was asking about their 85 yr old relative. If it was me, I would take the 100K from the CD when it matures and buy 100+ gold Maple Leaf coins with it. Keep a few thousand cash out in reserve and to live off of. When more cash is needed, sell a coin. Or you can do an equivalent thing with a company like BullionVault if dealing with coins is too much of a hassle. The problem with another CD is that price inflation is currently 12%+/yr, so she's really losing money. Gold has a better chance of retaining purchasing power than cash. Yes, it might go down before it goes up, but *that doesn't matter*. It could also double before it goes down. The certainty here is that the dollar will continue to go down.

 

[AceNZ]

How soon should I move away from this country? How much time do I have before moving becomes impossible?

I already did this, so I can tell you a few things:

1. It can take 6 to 12 months to apply for and receive an immigration visa
2. The cost of moving your belongings is going to skyrocket as the price of oil continues to go up
3. If things get worse in the US and the number of immigration applications increases, it will get more and more difficult to get in to another country
4. If the US does something stupid like nuke Iran, its possible that they will severely restrict travel and emigration. Shipment of your belongings could also be heavily regulated or outlawed
5. It doesn't cost that much to get the process started, so if you're seriously considering it, you might think about an early application as a kind of insurance

My answer to "how soon", since I've already moved, should be obvious.

If I had to guess, I'd say there's a 25% chance that it will be close to impossible to move within another 12 to 24 months.

 

[santopia]

If you buy gold, make sure you take delivery of the coins. Do not let the company store them for you. Keep your purchases quiet and keep the gold in a safe inside your home. Do not put it in a bank safe deposit box.

During the depression, the Feds confiscated all of the gold (that they knew about) from private individuals. It will probably happen again.

Also, consider diamonds as an investment. They are easier to conceal and will also tend to hold their value against a falling dollar. You can effectively store a lot of money in a very small package with diamonds.

Before WWII, many Jewish people in Europe saw the writing on the wall. Those that were smart converted their assets to diamonds and emigrated to the US. (This is why there are still so many Jewish diamond brokers in and around New York City).

 

[susano]

AceNZ, thank you for the advice. How much do the Maple Leafs cost? Are there smaller denominations (more tradable/spendable)? How does that stack up against junk silver?

The 85 year old is my mother. In her world, banks are safe places (even though she was child in the depression). I would NEVER want to put her savings at risk, but I just don't have any faith in the banks, and I have a real fear that the currency could be highly inflated, devalued, or swaped for the Amero (and whatever screw job will come with that). All I know is that whatan amount of gold would buy decades ago, it still will buy - no inflation.

I don't how the hell you got into NZ. I read that they are using BODY FAT indexes, now, to determine if someone is worthy! Also, for Americans without some highly sought after skill, I don't think anyone wants us.

 

[susano]

If you buy gold, make sure you take delivery of the coins. Do not let the company store them for you. Keep your purchases quiet and keep the gold in a safe inside your home. Do not put it in a bank safe deposit box.

During the depression, the Feds confiscated all of the gold (that they knew about) from private individuals. It will probably happen again.

Also, consider diamonds as an investment. They are easier to conceal and will also tend to hold their value against a falling dollar. You can effectively store a lot of money in a very small package with diamonds.

Before WWII, many Jewish people in Europe saw the writing on the wall. Those that were smart converted their assets to diamonds and emigrated to the US. (This is why there are still so many Jewish diamond brokers in and around New York City).

Personally, I think glod and silver is more practical because it can actually be SPENT. People understand real money but not diamonds. Then there is the ethical issue with diamonds (not to mention who profits off of them).

 

[santopia]

Personally, I think glod and silver is more practical because it can actually be SPENT. People understand real money but not diamonds. Then there is the ethical issue with diamonds (not to mention who profits off of them).

The point is to store your money in a medium that won't lose its value.

Gold and silver are great because they are easily liquidated for a small spread.

However, when thinking about storing large amounts of cash in something that will retain value, diamonds are bit better. It is tough to find a local gold broker who has hundreds of thousands in gold on hand and, even if you could take delivery of that much metal, storing and moving is a big problem. Diamonds are much easier to store and hide if one has a lot of cash to protect.

I am not advocating one or the other - just trying to give ideas for those that are concerned. As for the ethics - this is a battle for survival. I don't like the diamond profiteers either, but that is secondary to keeping my family safe and secure in a crisis.

 

[RonPaulCentral]

No problem, just buy gold. Lots and lots of gold. Cheers.

Damn right. I have moved EVERYTHING I have into gold. My holdings are in the 100's of ounces and I am waiting to ride the big wave that will be coming in 08.

Oh BTW, my holdings are in Zurich in a vault. I wouldn't use a safety box here in the States for holding more then paperwork.

I agree with the thought that everything is about to come undone. It is going to be nasty.

 

[RonPaulCentral]

I see a recession coming. This will lead to people losing their jobs. That will then make the housing bubble pop again. This in turn will cause another crisis and the FED will again feed more money into the mess. After that, other countries will drop the dollar and a depression will follow. This time though, all of the other countries will have the same problem and it will be world wide.

Just my view...

Before February 11, 2008 our country will attack Iran. All hell is going to break loose and metals are going to Skyrocket. Remember this post on Feb 12.

 

[RonPaulCentral]

Options Trader, I have a question for you. My 85 year mom lives with me. She collects Social Security, and has a 100K in a CD, which matures in a few days. I would like to see that converted to gold, IN HAND. Is that practical, and where does one buy buy 100K in gold (or silver) coins?

apmex.com

 

[RonPaulCentral]

How soon should I move away from this country? How much time do I have before moving becomes impossible?

You will always be able to get out. You might not do it in the traditional sense and fly out... but you will always be able to exit via way of Canada, Mexico, islands off Florida. The Bahamas are only 1 hour by speedboat out of Lauderdale. Go there and fly anywhere you want.

 

[NocturnalC]

Damn right. I have moved EVERYTHING I have into gold. My holdings are in the 100's of ounces and I am waiting to ride the big wave that will be coming in 08.

Oh BTW, my holdings are in Zurich in a vault. I wouldn't use a safety box here in the States for holding more then paperwork.

I agree with the thought that everything is about to come undone. It is going to be nasty.

How do you transfer holdings into a Zurich vault?