Vatican now says there is no longer a chosen people

[erowe1]

Welcome to Papalism.

Except I don't think this differs from the long-standing position of the Catholic church in any way.

 

[Inkblots]

Ah, yes, Maximus is correct that we're veering off-topic on this thread.

With regard to the bishop's statement, I think it may do some good. The Jewish people have the great honor and dignity of being God's chosen tool, with which he wrought the glorious work of salvation, and from whom came Christ Jesus, true God and true man.

But through the sacrifice of the Cross and Jesus' resurrection, God has chosen all people for salvation, and they can have it through Baptism in the Holy Spirit. So it's not correct to use the Bible or the will of God as justifications for Israel to act in unjust ways towards the Palestinian people, because they are all equally children of God. But some Protestant Zionists seem to forget this - or want to ignore it.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Of course. Paul's advice applies to all of us - if we have the strength to remain celibate, we ought to. And it is just that sort of person the Church wants for its priesthood, so that they may be undivided in their concern for the souls under their care, without the overweening concerns of wife and children.

Celibacy is fine, for a lay person.


Paul says directly and without equivocation that pastors must be the husbands of one wife. Celibacy is not an option for pastors. He also must manage his family well and be not given to drukeness.

The requirements are clearly laid out in chapter 3.

 

[Inkblots]

Celibacy is fine, for a lay person.


Paul says directly and without equivocation that pastors must be the husbands of one wife. Celibacy is not an option for pastors. He also must manage his family well and be not given to drukeness.

The requirements are clearly laid out in chapter 3.

I don't want to turn this thread off topic any further, so this will be my last word on this - but I believe you are misreading this passage. 1 Timothy 3:2 is saying not that all bishops must be married, but rather that men who practiced polygamy - a common practice at the time - or who had been remarried should not be bishops.

As an aside, I must say it's refreshing that an AquaBuddhist takes such an interest in Biblical exegesis.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Of course. Paul's advice applies to all of us - if we have the strength to remain celibate, we ought to. And it is just that sort of person the Church wants for its priesthood, so that they may be undivided in their concern for the souls under their care, without the overweening concerns of wife and children.

I don't want to turn this thread off topic any further, so this will be my last word on this - but I believe you are misreading this passage. 1 Timothy 3:2 is saying not that all bishops must be married, but rather that men who practiced polygamy - a common practice at the time - or who had been remarried should not be bishops.

As an aside, I must say it's refreshing that an AquaBuddhist takes such an interest in Biblical exegesis.

Dude. It says that Pastors must be married. Not celibate.

We are reading the same verse right?

But anyway, I wont derail the thread any further either

 

[libertythor]

Remember that before we get into a nasty theological debate that the idea is for individual denominations to have the right to their own beliefs and have the government as small and unobtrusive as possible.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Remember that before we get into a nasty theological debate that the idea is for individual denominations to have the right to their own beliefs and have the government as small and unobtrusive as possible.

Historically, the State is the ingredient that makes theological disputes "vicious".

When we argue on the free marketpkace of ideas, then the truth always wins...and the truth is freely accepted, which makes the free market morally correct.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Chrisitianity is not limited to the word of God in the Bible, rather it is the religion of the living eternal Word.

Interestingly, this is the same argument that liberals use for the Constitution....it's a "living" document. That is really just a code word for saying that the original meaning of the Constitution doesn't matter.

Theological liberals and political liberals will do just about anything to run from the truth, or to change it based on humanism. Christianity IS the written word. The Word IS the sole rule of faith and practice, and it is fully equipped to give the man of God what he needs for knowledge.

 

[PatriotOne]

This is a pretty damn amazing piece of news. This can really change the geopolitics of the region. I always thought the chrisitians were supposed to stand by the "chosen people" no matter what to fullfill some end of times prophesy. What happened?

That was just the excuse...not the end game. Like I have said a hundred times on this forum now: organized religions are used by tyrants to manipulate the peeps. Always has been, always will be.

The "chosen people" are about to be sacrificed for the British Empire. The same empire that created Israel in the first place. THAT was their real destiny. Create Israel in a strategic location in the middle east. Arm them with nukes. Give them enough rope to commit atrocities. Foment hatred of them. Abandon them and let the fireworks begin in the middle east.

 

[Maximus]

Interestingly, this is the same argument that liberals use for the Constitution....it's a "living" document. That is really just a code word for saying that the original meaning of the Constitution doesn't matter.

Theological liberals and political liberals will do just about anything to run from the truth, or to change it based on humanism. Christianity IS the written word. The Word IS the sole rule of faith and practice, and it is fully equipped to give the man of God what he needs for knowledge.

LOL

Well you can think of it that way, but thats quite a stretch.

The Gospels were written between ~70-100 AD, the first two or three generations of Christians didn't even have the Gospels. I wonder what those first generations did as they sat around waiting for a book :/

 

[GreenCardSeeker]

Dude. It says that Pastors must be married. Not celibate.

We are reading the same verse right?

But anyway, I wont derail the thread any further either

Hmm, the King James verse if not read in its context does indeed include the words "must be blameless, the husband of one wife."

I'm not a scholar, but the words in the 1917 Swedish Bible based on Luther's translation reads like this:

"The head of a congregation should be irreproachable; he should be the man of only one woman, sober-minded and disciplined"

To comment on the topic of this thread, it's always been the position of the Catholic church that the Jews rejecting Jesus as their saviour meant that they lost their chosen status and were condemned to wander the world in exile, as prophesied in Deuteronomy 28. According to church teaching, Christians then became the chosen people through the new covenant.

The dispensationalist view which holds that the Jews are still God's chosen people is pretty unique to the USA, and is a relatively invention. It sure has become a whole lot more prominent as the state of Israel has placed itself in a state of permanent conflict with its neighbours. In my opinion, the dispensationalist view lets rich and secure Americans see themselves as endangered by identifying with the state of Israel. "We're these outnumbered people facing extinction at the hands of savages."

It also lets them declare an enemy in Islam, which makes for a much greater interest in religion. Few people in today's world are interest in what God can teach them, but everyone loves a good conflict. "The Muslims are coming to kill us, and we need to rally behind Jesus as our military idol."

I find the topic of religion very interesting and though I do believe in God, I go about searching for him in an agnostic manner, questioning everything I come across. Mankind does however have this tendency to spoil everything he touches, including religion. I guess that what drives me towards religion, I don't really want to be a part of the mankind I witness today.. But I still don't want to believe in falsehoods either. I accept that God keeps me in the dark and believe that he will welcome the minority of mankind that does this journey into paradise, with existence in this world being one giant test.

 

[JohnEngland]

Interesting thread conversation.

On a somewhat related note, I recently came across, and ordered, a book that discusses the history of Christianity, political discourse and natural law. Some may have heard of it, "The Contested Public Square: The Crisis of Christianity and Politics", by Greg Forster. If anyone's interested:

http://www.amazon.com/Contested-Pub...r_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1287911844&sr=1-1#_

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

The neocons at hannityforums are using the antisemitism card just for someone posting an article. Haha http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=2100831

Maybe someone will play the Anti-Germanic card.

 

[paulitics]

That was just the excuse...not the end game. Like I have said a hundred times on this forum now: organized religions are used by tyrants to manipulate the peeps. Always has been, always will be.

The "chosen people" are about to be sacrificed for the British Empire. The same empire that created Israel in the first place. THAT was their real destiny. Create Israel in a strategic location in the middle east. Arm them with nukes. Give them enough rope to commit atrocities. Foment hatred of them. Abandon them and let the fireworks begin in the middle east.

And what purpose would that serve to the British Empire?

 

[moostraks]

And what purpose would that serve to the British Empire?

More of an accurate idea in my opinion would be this benefits the elites. Religion as a divisive measure serves to rally the people for a higher purpose while puppet masters pull the strings with the goal being to ultimately control earthly treasures. (In this case oil)

I think the result of this will be more pseudo-christian zealots will be inspired to offer their children to the gods of war for the underdog. The fence sitters might feel the need to inspire their children to die for the "cause".

 

[torchbearer]

Oh, is that were people used to not be able to eat meat on Friday, and now God says it's okay? Somehow, I got the idea fish live in trees on Friday.

And last I remember, Mexicans in Mexico still can't eat meat on Friday. Seems God singled them out.

every christian church in alexandria has a different list of do's and don't's from their god. either each group is really just making the shit up, or there are 1000s of different dieties floating around, or their god is just fucking with them.

 

[Natalie]

//

 

[Meatwasp]

I read a long time ago the Commies were infiltrating the Catholic church. I honestly believe it is them trying to destroy the church. I was baptized Catholic also Natalie but not a practicing one.

 

[smartguy911]

is that God's ip address?

nope, it's God's personal phone number

 

[MelissaWV]

I read a long time ago the Commies were infiltrating the Catholic church. I honestly believe it is them trying to destroy the church. I was baptized Catholic also Natalie but not a practicing one.

Same. I can't say I'm a "real Catholic" by any stretch of the imagination. A lot of the traditions were made up out of whole cloth, and make little/no sense. The remainder of the traditions... well... their roots are interesting to trace

Catholicism in Latin America is interesting stuff, because it mingles in with a sort of sanctioned voodoo. You pray to the saints, you ask them to do things for you, you might even ask them to curse an enemy or favor you over them. You might have an altar in your home, or in your town, for the patron saint(s), and you might take them offerings or leave little tokens or light candles for them. It's very VERY similar to the polytheistic traditions of older cultures where they believed in a supreme god but their supplications were to "lesser gods." Yes, there is true Santeria but I am talking about people who would answer that they are Catholic.

Some "real Catholics" might gasp at such a perversion of their "holy religion," but it really isn't that different. Traditional Catholicism points people in the direction of their local priest, or the bishop, or all the way up to the Pope. The Church makes people Saints, basically sanctioning the praying to those figures, the use of their names on monuments, and agrandizing the importance of relics or "holy sites" associated with the Saint in question. The Pope can amend the Holy Word, or at least versions of Canon that came before, and when the Pope talks about a new interpretation of the Bible a LOT of people listen. I suspect that many people would think being absolved by the Pope himself would somehow carry more weight than your local priest doing the deed or, for that matter, simply praying to God directly for forgiveness.

All of these intermediaries between the common person and God... something about it doesn't sit well with me at all. If there's something obvious about the Bible and "living right," it is that whatever Creator is out there has a direct line to the people, or no line at all. If it's the former, I don't need all these people to help me get on God's voicemail. If it's the latter, I don't need all these people to nab my money and get in the way of the benefits directly having faith in something can provide.

That said, there are some aspects of "Catholicism" that ring true to me. They're just not open to the interpretation of a thousand men in dresses wearing funny hats.