Value?

ShaneEnochs

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I was having a debate with someone about returning to the gold standard, and he hit me with something that I had no idea how to counter.

He said that the dollar derives its value from the perception of its value. Gold (and everything else) also derives its value from the perception of its value. What is the difference between the fiat dollar and gold, since both of their values are merely a perception?

I said something along the lines of gold is finite, but I don't feel like it was a very strong answer.
 
Gold has been valuable for all recorded history. That's a pretty good track record. Paper fiat currency, not so much. Go with the sure thing.
 
I was having a debate with someone about returning to the gold standard, and he hit me with something that I had no idea how to counter.

He said that the dollar derives its value from the perception of its value. Gold (and everything else) also derives its value from the perception of its value. What is the difference between the fiat dollar and gold, since both of their values are merely a perception?

I said something along the lines of gold is finite, but I don't feel like it was a very strong answer.

Gold is finite, that is the correct answer. There is a reason it's a precious metal, and its because the government can't print more of it at will to push policy it couldn't legislate. It won't decrease in value causing your savings to dwindle, it wont have you constantly playing catch-up with your retirement, it wont add a tax to every american that is working at a low wage that doesn't have minimum wage keep up with inflation, and wont leave speculation unsure of its value. It maintains neutrality and cut's off a major hidden fundraiser the government uses to push bad policy. And it does all that because it is finite.
 
The difference is that gold isn't inflatable. Gold holds value evenly across centuries. Fiat paper fluctuates drastically when it's not backed by anything of intrinsic value because it can be inflated or factored against other currencies that may or may not be fiat themselves.
 
Here are some responses:

All commodities, soft and hard, as well as all services which are in demand and paid for by anyone, anywhere, derive their value from individual perceptions of their value. However, these perceptions can originate from many sources, both artificial and natural. The value of any thing is, at all times, a relative characteristic, which can only be known by contrast with other things of value. Removal of this contrast is but one of many factors which can severely distort or render meaningless the entire concept of a thing's value, real or perceived.

A fake Rolex may be said to be worth $1,000 or more, if a con man is able to defraud his marks by misrepresenting its value. The Rolex would then indeed have value based on the mark's false perception of the value of the watch. If the mark is truthfully informed, however, the fake Rolex may still have value (I bought some in Shanghai for $10 each as stocking stuffers). But the perceived value will be a fraction of the value most people would perceive a genuine Rolex to have.

In the above example, is perceived value the important part, or the accuracy of this perception? That all depends on whose perspective you are looking at it from. It is in the victim's interest to know the accuracy of what s/he perceives to be the "real" value (the likely perceived value to most, if all factors are known, and everything is accurately represented). On the other hand, it is in the con man's interest to make sure that the misrepresented perception of value for the fake Rolex holds up, at least until the transaction is final, and two parties are separated, never to meet again.

An armed robber can demand money or other possessions in exchange for what appears to be nothing at all. There is, however, an exchange of value, whether real or perceived. The victim is willing to pay whatever is demanded in exchange for a perceived value of the possibility of self-preservation, should s/he comply. The actual value will be distorted, however, since it is limited by what the victim is capable of surrendering. If no force or threat was involved (e.g., the gunman is trying to make a demand from the other side of a bullet proof screen, or in the presence of armed policemen), the value of whatever the armed robber was "offering" (safety, security) might be nonexistent.

A person who is opposed to automobile insurance may be forced to purchase insurance anyway - not because the insurance has any real or perceived value to the buyer, but because the buyer is acting under legal compulsion. Here, like the robber, the fear of loss of liberty and property is valued to the extent where value paid to an insurance company can be extorted. If no compulsion was in place, the perceived value of the actual good or service can be measured. It might be the full price of the insurance. Then again, it might be zero. Wherever it is zero, that represents a drop in demand, which is but ONE value determinant. And, of course, that perceived value will then affect the overall value of the 'product' to other consumers - based on how the insurance company responds to such a drop in demand.

The current fiat dollar, like any relatively scarce good or service, derives its value from many factors which can determine, in part, the value of any thing. Its primary "perceived" value, however, is derived by virtue of the fact that it is the exclusive medium of exchange which was declared legal tender by the US government for payment of all debts, public and private - including taxes. In other words, you are compelled to use this for payment of taxes, and everyone is compelled to accept it in payment of debts. That includes wages, which are a form of debt. If you are a wage earner, and are not paid in advance, you MUST, by law, accept fiat dollars as payment - regardless of your so-called "perceived" value. Because there is no meaningful choice involved, a primary determinant of value has been distorted. Thus, like anything which is compelled, its "real perceived" value, whatever that might be, cannot be known or accurately determined, unless and until choices are offered, and that artificial "value-distorting" compulsion is removed. It's "perceived" value may be what it appears to be now. Then again, it may be something else entirely.

If competing currencies were not taxed out of existence or outright forbidden - even criminalized in some cases by legislative decree, the perception of the dollar's value, and indeed its ultimate value, would quickly change.
 
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you can't make gold out of thin air or by adjusting the bits on a hard drive

and the perception of the value of gold is pretty reliable... never been considered worthless in human history to my knowledge, whereas fiat currencies most definitely cannot say the same
 
First of all there is no such thing as a "fiat dollar". What you think of as a "fiat dollar" is in fact a promise to pay a dollar i.e. a dollar bill. Hence the name on its face, Federal Reserve "Note"; it is an evidence of debt, a promissory note, an IOU. A dollar is a silver coin containing roughly 0.773 Troy ounces of pure silver. The reason that dollar bills from the Fed are worth less than their face value is because that bank does not pay its bills in specie and so they trade in the real marketplace at a steep 93%+ discount (of course after such a default they wouldn't be used as currency at all in a free market if it weren't for government coercion but I digress...). Now that we have that out of the way allow me to address the notion of value that you touched upon in your post:

"Gold (and everything else) also derives its value from the perception of its value. What is the difference between the fiat dollar and gold, since both of their values are merely a perception?"

Gold and everything else has a use value and people perceive use values according to their own particular needs and situations, see the theory of marginal utility. The difference between a "fiat dollar", i.e. a dollar bill and gold is simple, one is a promise to pay something the other is something. Both values are based on perception of course, as is everything but at the end of the day gold does not have a counterparty risk like a debt obligation from the Federal Reserve does. The counterparty in this case, the Federal Reserve, can emit as many of these bills of credit as they see fit thus making them worth less and less as their credibility declines. Normally this wouldn't be such a huge problem in a free market people would simply cease doing business with this bad debtor as soon as they reneged on their promise to redeem their notes on demand in specie, but the government has come into the picture and forced creditors to accept their notes at face value for debts and prevented creditors from demanding in court that the banks pay their bills as they agreed as well as preventing any would be solvent competitors from issuing notes. Hope that helps!
 
First of all there is no such thing as a "fiat dollar".

The original dollar has long been hijacked. Like a stolen luxury car, with all its specifications, it has long since been sent to chop shop and parted out, replaced with fake cardboard things called "luxury cars". To the point where few remember or know anything about the original, except as some quaint passing piece of surreal trivia.

The old definition of a dollar is DEAD. Archaic even. I have no desire to resurrect it, as even it was polluted, diluted and distorted (e.g., with a bi-metal standard, rather than two separate competing currencies), long before the Fed killed any semblance of the original dollar in its most idealized form.

You can't say "dollar" and have it mean anything but what the common usage implies to the common person. So dollar, "fiat dollar", I don't personally care what they call it, as that battle has long been lost, and none of the bodies in that massive killing field are going to be resurrected.

Screw the dollar or any other 'weight equivalent standard'. Give me an "ounce". Or a "gram". Something that resists redefinition, and reckons money in terms of WEIGHT (and, secondarily, purity).
 
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I would go with saying that although both derive value from perception, in the case of a fiat currency those who manage over it have the ability to create as much of it as they want. However, in the case of gold you have a limit eventually.
 
I would go with saying that although both derive value from perception, in the case of a fiat currency those who manage over it have the ability to create as much of it as they want. However, in the case of gold you have a limit eventually.

Yes, and repeal the legal tender laws, and see how the "perception" of value changes. I can create the perception that most people "perceive" extreme value in wallowing in pig shit if I have them all at gunpoint.

Did you see the pics of prisoners stacked in a heap at Guantanamo? I had no idea they perceived such value in self-stacking that way. Must be a cultural thing.

Better yet. A black man is dredged from the Mississippi River in the 1940's, bound in chains. The sheriff says, "Ain't that just like a colored boy, stealin' more chains that he could swim with?"

Value derived from perception, or did someone just out-clever their own brains, as they learn that there is real value to be siphoned from distorted perception? Such idiots remind me of those who would entice a retarded kid to trade an ugly old dollar bill for a handful of brand new shiny pennies - AND feel good about themselves for the smile they put on his little cherubic face.
 
I have an image of a cherub Bernanke I just can't get out of my head now thanks to you. Some photo shopping is in order!
 
What is the difference between the fiat dollar and gold, since both of their values are merely a perception?

Gold has an intrinsic value because it is USEFUL and rare. Gold has always been sought after because it is a metal that is easily malleable, doesn't tarnish or corrode, and it just plain looks good. Gold is also one of the best conductors of electricity, along with silver. What does paper money do? Burn. A fraction of a BTU, at best.
 
Gold has an intrinsic value because it is USEFUL and rare. Gold has always been sought after because it is a metal that is easily malleable, doesn't tarnish or corrode, and it just plain looks good. Gold is also one of the best conductors of electricity, along with silver. What does paper money do? Burn. A fraction of a BTU, at best.
nothing has intrinsic value. all value is subjective. rule 101 of austrian economics.
 
Gold has value becuase it is a limited resource and desireable.
Fiat money has the same value as leaves. Becuase in the end, all it will be good for is wiping your butt and kindeling
 
Money is suppose to be a medium of exchange. Something that everyone wants and is rare enough that it would be worth trading a good/service for. Historically that something has been rare metals (gold, silver, even copper). Obviously paper is not rare. Heck, it is even renewable...we could always grow more trees. It also means you can print more in tough times instead of making responsible budgeting decisions. Frankly I don't care if it's gold or not that our dollar is backed by, but it has to be something and that something has to be finite. I can't really think of anything other than gold that has such a world wide view as a store of value, that is finite, and has very few consumable aspects of it that wouldn't eventually deplete the supply. I guess it's not so much a case for gold as it is a case for the end of valueless paper as money.
 
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OK, this one is eating at me, because the common misunderstandings surrounding the terms value and "intrinsic value", especially as it relates to hard specie, is a topic that makes me very angry.

Intrinsic value has NOTHING to do with marginal utility, how a thing is "valued" by others, or its multiple and varied uses or anything else.

Intrinsic
1. of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent

Intrinsic is actually clear enough. It is the word value, especially as it relates to gold and money, which drops most people unnecessarily down a rabbit hole.

If you look up value, most of the definitions will relate to desirability, usefulness, exchangeability, worth, merit, importance, etc.,.

And why would we not look to these definitions? We are talking about gold, after all, and especially as it relates to money? Isn't it all economics? And that's where we become idiots, having completely lost our way, because our language has been diluted and confused by common, lazy usage, which gets exploited and further distorted by a combination of sophistry, ignorance and irrelevant references that do little more than obfuscate -- often deliberately, but mostly out of ignorance.

The Founders were not so confused when it came to their usage of the word value. There was a specific meaning to the word "value" which can be clearly deduced from context. When referring to "value" of hard specie, look to the coinage Act of 1792.

Section 9. And be it further enacted, That there shall be from time to time struck and coined at the said mint, coins of gold, silver, and copper, of the following denominations, values and descriptions, viz.

There is a whole listing of these, each of which has the above three elements, but let's look at the dollar only, from further down in that same section:

DOLLARS OR UNITS--each to be of the value of a Spanish milled dollar as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver.

The Founders looked to the Spanish milled dollar, which was already widely in circulation (now "current" - which is where we get the term "currency"). They weighed them, assayed them, and averaged them out to find their "value". Not price. Not exchange rate with anything else. Not usefulness or utility. MEASURED CONTENT ONLY. They took an average, and declared that average as a constant, and that was ONLY as a matter of convenience, to make the new currency more easily FUNGIBLE with what was already in circulation.

The "UNIT" or "DOLLAR" was a denomination of "value" based ONLY weight and purity. Specifically, of silver. It could not be a matter of weight only, because that did not describe the purity, and that is why we get two definitions for a basic dollar in the Coinage Act. It was either 371 grains of "pure" silver, or 416 grains of "standard" silver - each of which would be roughly equivalent in silver content, based on the technological limitations of that time.

What the "VALUE" of the dollar really described, as defined in that Act, was a coarse description of the number of silver atoms that would comprise ONE UNIT. Or ONE DOLLAR. It was that simple.

So, back to the common contemporary misuse of the word "value", with the common mistaken applications of alternate definitions of ZERO relevance, and the only definition of value that is relevant to "intrinsic value" is the MATH and PHYSICS definition.

VALUE
6. maths
a. a particular magnitude, number, or amount: the value of the variable was 7

Intrinsic value, therefore, is only the known physical characteristics, or attributes inherent to a thing in terms of property (e.g., silver of X purity) and quantity (X grains). It is nothing but a quantification - a measurement based on known physics. That is not political, social, economic, individual, or anything else.

Someone might say, "This 1 gram nugget of gold, at .999 purity, has intrinsic value." That is actually a strange way of putting it, because the weight and molecular composition IS its intrinsic value. In this case, because mass was employed as a unit of measurement, rather than weight, such a nugget would have that same "intrinsic value" anywhere in the universe, not just on, or in, the Earth. In fact, in the absence of the entire human race, it would still have that same intrinsic value - because all it means is that there are a discrete number of gold atoms connected to a single blob!

In that respect, fiat money ALSO technically has "intrinsic value" - as in the "value", or physical properties, of anything used to represent it, and apart from what it represents as a promise, or fiction - whether paper, base metals, or bits in a computer. That's completely separate from all other definitions of value. The Keynesian-spawned muddle-heads want the focus to be only on personal utility, or individual or aggregate perceptions of value in economic terms only.

So when you say to a Keynesian or other fiat-defender that gold has intrinsic value, remember that you are referring to value in objective, non-normative math and physics terms. They will counter-argue apples against oranges using their preferred definitions of value, all of which are subjective. You aren't making claims about WHY intrinsic value has other "value" according to other definitions of the word. Only that gold has certain physical properties which are not "intrinsic to" un-backed fiat currency. And that is a fact that is not in dispute, because it truly is indisputable.

If they try to rope you into the "value derived from perceptions" trap, agree quickly, because that's both irrelevant and not in dispute. What is usually in dispute is their unwillingness to have that value, based on perceptions, altered by competition. To that you answer, "Then you have no faith in other people's perceptions of fiat money's value in the presence of gold as an untaxed alternative. If you think its value would erode if people are given a choice, then you're on the right track to understand it's REAL value - even according to perceptions."
 
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Sure it is for the most part accurate to say that a dollar's value is based on its perception of value, just the same as gold. The complete answer, though, is that that perception is conveyed through the price system.

If your buddy perceives a dollar to be worth enough to take in exchange for his house, then good for him, but good luck taking that dollar and buying another one. There is a reason goods and services have prices.

This is where the scarcity of gold vs. paper money comes in. Prices in gold don't go up. They stay the same or go down, meaning the perception is that the value of the gold remains the same or increases. As paper money is printed, prices go up. And up and up and up. The perception is that the paper decreases in value.

That is what happens when newly printed money joins the chase with existing money for goods and services. There is no way around it. That is why the perception is reality and will never change.
 
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