Universal Healthcare

Fox McCloud

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Messages
4,726
Ok, first off, this is not a question from me, but someone I know.

Basically, they want to know why Universal Healthcare is a bad idea (this guy is a devout socialist who's so devout he's called a "communist" by his friends)...basically I'd like some very well thought out posts against it, and, if possible, some videos explaining why it's a bad idea (socially as well as economically).
 
sorry that i dont have time to go into detail, but tell him to watch 20/20 Sick in America on you tube
 
One of the most fundamental problems is that Healthcare is not a right. No matter how much they say it is. If healthcare is a right, then that means you have a right to some doctor's time, money, and service. Basically, making healthcare a right means that you must control others. Another question I would ask this communist would be,

"Why don't we just have the government out of it and have the people start charities. Arn't private charities more efficiant than government social programs?"
 
"Why don't we just have the government out of it and have the people start charities. Arn't private charities more efficiant than government social programs?"


I should point out that this guy is an Australian, so while he's seen some degree of Statism, he hasn't seen how corrupt it can get, like with the US...though that shouldn't be an excuse, because he has the US to look at.

Please note that I'm in agreement with you guys 110%...I just want to bring up some points that I know he'll use.

he'll probably say "What if people won't want to pay into charities? What if they don't? If people don't have to pay, they'll just be selfish and keep all their money"

He'll most likely also say that it should be a right because a human life is involved and that we should maintain it (the hypocrisy of this, however, is that while he's made statements like this, he supports abortion to a degree).
 
Please note that I'm in agreement with you guys 110%...I just want to bring up some points that I know he'll use.

he'll probably say "What if people won't want to pay into charities? What if they don't? If people don't have to pay, they'll just be selfish and keep all their money"

Yeah you are right on that one Fox McCloud. To argue this point I usually ask them that if someone didn't support their social program would they throw them in jail. I also ask,

"But I am sure you could get enough people to join a co-operative charity to dish out healthcare to eachother. I bet at least 1 million people would sign up for that. Wouldn't that group be able to sustain themselves?"

I bet though that the guy you know would then eventually admit that the only people that would sign up for it would be poor compared to the average. At this point then, you have proven to him that his system only works when you take from others. So basically anyone that isn't poor has absolutely no incentive to do this program.
 
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Isn't 'universal health care' just the government getting together with some hmos and mandating participation in a plan with penalties if you do not participate?
 
the problem with health care, for most people is that it is to freaking expensive, now why is it so expensive, are the chemicals in the drugs THAT expensive, no, hmm, maybe it is because first of all big govt. is in bed with big pharma, and the govt. are shielding the Insurance/Pharmaceutical industry from us and competition.
 
Exactly ToryNotion.

Communist just have problems with people being rich. They think the only fair way to do it is if every one is equal and dragged down to the low standard of the poor. However, this just drags down the standard of living for the general population.
 
also in any universal healthcare system there are no incentives for
people to be healthy
insurance co. to be honest
govt./drug co. to keep cost down
ect.
ect.
ect.
 
Man it is so sad that we even have to argue this with people, and a lot of them are never convinced. This shouldn't be even up for debate. It is only about logical reasoning and nothing else. What has our country come too!
 
The government has messed up the health care situation by taxing it and regulating it too much, so why is the solution more government? If you can't trust the government with your personal privacy and civil liberties, why can you trust them with your money and health? Why should bureaucrats in a distant power center where corporate lobbyists and career politicians run amok be in charge of your well-being instead of you and your doctor?

Maybe if our government wasn't debasing our currency (which hurts the poor the most) and wasn't obscenely taxing every dollar we make or spend (often secretly) and wasn't regulating the market to the point we can't even import cheaper prescription drugs from our neighbor to the north (itself supposedly one of those enlightened bastions of compassionate authoritarian health care where you get to go to jail if you don't play along), health care wouldn't be a problem in the United States.

But unfortunately what we have is corporatized medicine and managed care (HMOs, Medicare, Medicaid), which means the government is extensively involved while still being nominally not in charge. It obviously makes everything worse, so people clamor for the government to "finally" get involved, not realizing it's been mucking around all along.

Charities would be far more common if the government didn't account for 30-35% of our entire economy. We literally slave away for a third of the working year to feed the Leviathan. And with all that wealth in the hands of so few, decisions are not made rationally, as they are when it's individual consumers controlling the fruit of their own labor. Instead, they're made politically, to ensure the politicians get reelected and the special interests keep their seats at the table (or snouts in the public trough, if you prefer a more realistic description).

Besides, if health care is a right, what if only a few people decide to become doctors? In a free market, they would get to charge millions, attracting more people into the profession and driving their prices down substantially. With the government calling the shots, however, they might decide to make him or a select few the only legal providers, but suppress prices anyway, thereby leading to months-long waiting lines even for important surgeries.

The government might also decide to let those few doctors charge whatever prices they want and simply subsidize them, which takes out any measure of accountability since the government can simply not tell the taxpayers, lie to the taxpayers, or even change the electoral rules so the taxpayers can't really do anything about it at the ballot box. Hell, those select providers might have lobbyists ensuring that they're the only game in town.

And if health care is a right but there is a shortage of doctors, do people lose that right? Does government make someone provide that right? There's no such problem with the real natural rights that people have (life, liberty, and property) since it requires nothing to be taken from anyone else, only that everyone respects each other's rights. Government can tell one person to leave another alone, and it can punish the first for not doing so, but it can't make things appear where they don't exist, which is why the "welfare rights" philosophy falls apart.

Also, once you're too deep into socialism, there's no turning back. Even by raising taxes to provide a new service, government pushes the people on the margins into the system, and they develop a dependency on it, a loyalty to it, and an unwillingness to or even guilt about opposing it, despite being a victim of it. Hence, people become serfs to the state. They cease to be unique human beings and become cogs in the machine. Fear of liberty (which promises no comforts but delivers many, while the alternative promises many but delivers none) and blind trust in the abilities and word of authority leads to slavery.

also in any universal healthcare system there are no incentives for
people to be healthy
insurance co. to be honest
govt./drug co. to keep cost down
ect.
ect.
ect.

This too. Where's the incentive to be healthy and pursue a safe lifestyle when you're covered no matter what? Why should others subsidize you if you eat bad foods, smoke a lot, drink too much, or go skydiving with regularity?
 
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Man it is so sad that we even have to argue this with people, and a lot of them are never convinced. This shouldn't be even up for debate. It is only about logical reasoning and nothing else. What has our country come too!

yeah, I know...it breaks my heart at times what this country is coming to, because of what Big Government and Corporatism (which only exists BECAUSE of Big Government) has forced down people's throats....even worse, is they actually believe it.

Anyway, thanks for the information guys--I'll point all of this out to him--please post anything else if you find further information or want to add points.

It may be impossible to convince him....he's one that believes that guns should be outlawed because they let a criminal easily hurt other people, and that "anyone wanting a gun for protection is highly insecure". I pointed out a number of "what if situations", but he simply resorted to "Australia isn't violent and doesn't have a problem of crime like YOUR country"...(I really backed him into a corner on this one...stating that there's still the black market, and that you can't prevent criminals from getting guns if they REALLY want them)--still he fell back on his old argument again.

He also had the argument that "I shouldn't have to carry a gun just to keep myself safe", despite the fact I never told him he'd have to (I merely said that guns-no matter the type-should be fully legalized).

In short, I highly suspect that he (unlike most Libertarians) thinks that man is "basically good", and that 'bad influences' need to be removed to keep him that way.

I may be just spinning my tires, even if I have the best argument in the world...but he demanded a challenge, so I thought I'd give it to him.
 
The government has messed up the health care situation by taxing it and regulating it too much, so why is the solution more government? If you can't trust the government with your personal privacy and civil liberties, why can you trust them with your money and health? Why should bureaucrats in a distant power center where corporate lobbyists and career politicians run amok be in charge of your well-being instead of you and your doctor?

Maybe if our government wasn't debasing our currency (which hurts the poor the most) and wasn't obscenely taxing every dollar we make or spend (often secretly) and wasn't regulating the market to the point we can't even import cheaper prescription drugs from our neighbor to the north (itself supposedly one of those enlightened bastions of compassionate authoritarian health care where you get to go to jail if you don't play along), health care wouldn't be a problem in the United States.

But unfortunately what we have is corporatized medicine and managed care (HMOs, Medicare, Medicaid), which means the government is extensively involved while still being nominally not in charge. It obviously makes everything worse, so people clamor for the government to "finally" get involved, not realizing it's been mucking around all along.

Charities would be far more common if the government didn't account for 30-35% of our entire economy. We literally slave away for a third of the working year to feed the Leviathan. And with all that wealth in the hands of so few, decisions are not made rationally, as they are when it's individual consumers controlling the fruit of their own labor. Instead, they're made politically, to ensure the politicians get reelected and the special interests keep their seats at the table (or snouts in the public trough, if you prefer a more realistic description).

Besides, if health care is a right, what if only a few people decide to become doctors? In a free market, they would get to charge millions, attracting more people into the profession and driving their prices down substantially. With the government calling the shots, however, they might decide to make him or a select few the only legal providers, but suppress prices anyway, thereby leading to months-long waiting lines even for important surgeries.

The government might also decide to let those few doctors charge whatever prices they want and simply subsidize them, which takes out any measure of accountability since the government can simply not tell the taxpayers, lie to the taxpayers, or even change the electoral rules so the taxpayers can't really do anything about it at the ballot box. Hell, those select providers might have lobbyists ensuring that they're the only game in town.

And if health care is a right but there is a shortage of doctors, do people lose that right? Does government make someone provide that right? There's no such problem with the real natural rights that people have (life, liberty, and property) since it requires nothing to be taken from anyone else, only that everyone respects each other's rights. Government can tell one person to leave another alone, and it can punish the first for not doing so, but it can't make things appear where they don't exist, which is why the "welfare rights" philosophy falls apart.

Also, once you're too deep into socialism, there's no turning back. Even by raising taxes to provide a new service, government pushes the people on the margins into the system, and they develop a dependency on it, a loyalty to it, and an unwillingness to or even guilt about opposing it, despite being a victim of it. Hence, people become serfs to the state. They cease to be unique human beings and become cogs in the machine. Fear of liberty (which promises no comforts but delivers many, while the alternative promises many but delivers none) and blind trust in the abilities and word of authority leads to slavery.



This too. Where's the incentive to be healthy and pursue a safe lifestyle when you're covered no matter what? Why should others subsidize you if you eat bad foods, smoke a lot, drink too much, or go skydiving with regularity?

i agree with everything you said, also i encourage everybody to take 45min., go to youtube and watch 2020 Sick in america:)
 
Funny how a murderer that gets injured though can get free healthcare.

And he should be held liable for any such care.

If there's a shortage of firearms, do people lose that right?

The difference is that the right to keep and bear arms is a right to not be impeded, while the right to health care is a right to get something. When you don't get that something, you have been deprived of your right to it. If nobody made guns, your right to keep and bear arms would still not be violated (and you could always make your own), but if you had a right to be provided guns by the government and there was a shortage, then you would have been deprived of said right.

And somehow there is an incentive now? Good gawd. People in Europe eat better than us and aren't as fat.

And would universal health care make our situation any better? Does their better health owe to their health care system, or something else? Does our bad health owe to being too free market, not free market enough, or something else?

You already do if you have a decent job. Everyone else without a decent job has to buy there own for a ridiculous price while some middle class person gets top healthcare for 50 biweekly.

...I'm not arguing for the status quo. There are a lot of problems with what we have now, and little of it owes to being too laissez faire a system.
 
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