Universal health care wouldn't be that bad if...

[SeanEdwards]

I know you're addressing it to him, but please don't attribute attitudes to others that they may not have.

Look, bad luck happens. It happened to me and it may have happened to you. It is not the government's job to fix that.

It's not the government's job to exascerbate the problem either. The fact remains, terrorists get better healthcare than I and millions of other Americans. I don't give a fuck HOW it gets fixed, but it needs to be fixed. So you can quit with your fucking lecturing me about the fucking government.

Our government policy has something to do with healthcare in this country costing a shitload of money. The current system may be working great for you, but it is failing way too many. In other words, the status quo is not an option so you can just quit trying to convince me to like what we have now.

 

[Corydoras]

I don't give a fuck HOW it gets fixed, but it needs to be fixed. So you can quit with your fucking lecturing me about the fucking government.

But HOW makes all the difference in the world. You sound exactly like the people who are happy to have the government walk all over their rights because (they think) it makes them safer.


i

the status quo is not an option so you can just quit trying to convince me to like what we have now.

You don't have to like the status quo. But you DO have to deal with it in relation to your own health as it is right now. That is a responsibility of yours that is frankly more important than criticizing the candidate you are ostensibly here to support.

 

[Corydoras]

The fact remains, terrorists get better healthcare than I and millions of other Americans.

Look, if you actually want to be strapped to a chair and have a nasogastric tube forced into your head in the name of government healthcare, you must be awfully worried about that health condition of yours which you think is serious, and if that is so, you are diverting your attention from where it should be, which is doing something about the concrete situation you are in rather than waiting until the government does something about it.

 

[SeanEdwards]

Look, if you actually want to be strapped to a chair and have a nasogastric tube forced into your head in the name of government healthcare, you must be awfully worried about that health condition of yours which you think is serious, and if that is so, you are diverting your attention from where it should be, which is doing something about the concrete situation you are in rather than waiting until the government does something about it.

What a ridiculous slippery slope argument to propose.

I say I want access to reasonably priced healthcare.

You respond: the government's going to force a tube up your nose.

What a false dilemma you create. Either no healthcare, or sell my soul to Hillary Clinton. How about an alternative that allows me to get medical care without financially gouging me or forcing me to travel abroad?

 

[Corydoras]

How about an alternative that allows me to get medical care without financially gouging me or forcing me to travel abroad?

One thing's for sure, it ain't gonna happen before your potentially serious health condition gets resolved. You gonna get that looked at promptly, or are you gonna wait until John Edwards makes you go to the doctor?

 

[Corydoras]

What a false dilemma you create. Either no healthcare, or sell my soul to Hillary Clinton.

You haven't actually proposed anything short of Hillarycare, and it's false that you have no access to health care. Go to the doctor and pay the bill the way you would deal with any other bill.

 

[SeanEdwards]

One thing's for sure, it ain't gonna happen before your potentially serious health condition gets resolved. You gonna get that looked at promptly, or are you gonna wait until John Edwards makes you go to the doctor?

I am prepared to be fully wtfpwned by the current non-system. I'm just not liking it.

 

[cjhowe]

You seem to enjoy adopting a cavalier attitude towards someone else's misfortune. No big deal to you if I, or the other millions of uninsured become homeless in order to pay for exorbitantly priced healthcare I guess. I suppose you think we're getting what we deserve?

Simply as cavalier as those demanding services have been regarding their health care for their lives up to this point. Simply as cavalier as they have been in educating themselves about their body and the effects of their lifestyle. Simply as cavalier as they have been in their consumerism of health insurance/services in general. For the record, I'm a little overweight, and don't have health insurance. If I become ill, I accept responsibility for the outcome of my poor lifestyle in regards to my health. If I get in a car accident, I accept responsibility for the risk to my health that I took by getting behind the wheel of the car.

 

[trispear]

Nice climate you live in. Don't try it in the winter in the upper midwest or New England, where lack of shelter is a life-threatening emergency in the winter.

Yep, but I would know about it beforehand and could always hitch a ride down south.

Do I understand properly, you're urging government price controls?

I suppose I would support regulation. No one has really shown me a satisfactory explanation how the free market plays in emergency care.

In normal markets, prices are kept reasonable by competition. So far, no one has really answered my questions about these situations, where competition is minimal, you go to the closest place and often don't or can't ask questions about price (due to condition).

They can charge you prices they feel like and you can't really complain.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

It comes down to this little bit;

universal health care = sucks, exchanging a problem for another

free market health care = fair

status quo = worst

 

[maverickdy]

how about this... i don't care about your damned problems and i'm not gonna foot the bill for your bodies inability to take care of itself. when i die from cancer i'm not gonna bitch that the u.s. population didn't fork over half their paychecks to allow me to go to a substandard hospital. my problme is not your problem and your problem isn't my problem and that is exactly how it should be. you can die tomorrow and it won't affect me at all and the same goes both ways.

i love my paycheck and i really wish these universal healthcare idiots would stop trying to get me to fork over money to let some bozo go to the doctor for the sniffles. i'm not gonna allow someone to force me to go to the hospital to take innoculations when i have a belief innoculations harm you more than they help. i'm not gonna support a system that will leave you in worst shape than you started.

i can go into the VA hospital right now and tell them i REALLY need a MRI 'cause the tumor in my brain is growing. they'll go.... alright we'll set up an appointment at so in so time in the future, and i'll get my results in a week or two. my girlfriend went into a private hospital and got seen that hour and had her MRI results that night. THAT is what i want.

here are 20 quick reasons.
1. it's not free
2. it's abused like no other
3. IT IS NOT FREE
4. hospitals have no need to upgrade equipment
5. hospitals have no need to allow creature comforts
6. hospitals have no need to work hard for your needs
7. you lose all rights to a personal doctor
8. you're forced to do things beyond you needs
9. you have lost all choice in the matter
10. IT IS NOT FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11. if i never get sick in my life, half my paycheck still went towards healthcare
12. i don't give a damn about your health
13. this is not a socialist country by design
14. you want it so bad MOVE TO CANADA
15. more of the same is not the answer
16. countless die waiting for the FDA to approve medication
17. FDA approves drugs that are still possibly harmful
18. IT ISN'T FREE!!!!!!!!
19. hospitals hate dealing with you "insert healthcare program" ppl because of the damned regulations
20. hospitals and doctors increase your bills to cover for the lost of profit of "insert healthcare program" so why create another program?

how about we not do more of the same, and get back to where we were back in the day. when doctors made private visits to homes. when medical care didn't cross thousands of dollars. when ppl quit bitching to us to pay for their inability to take care of themselves.

 

[angelatc]

i am more than willing to accept responsibility for my own health
and the health of my family, without doctors if necessary.

the other thing, remember thalidamide?

Quick point - thalidimide is often used as an argument for preserving the FDA. It was never legal in the US.

 

[yaz]

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html

 

[Corydoras]

Quick point - thalidimide is often used as an argument for preserving the FDA. It was never legal in the US.

Just a note, thalidomide is legal in the United States right now.
It is used as a cancer drug and is considered a good and proven treatment.

 

[angelatc]

Your comparison is not a valid argument because if I break down, I can call several towing services and ask pricing first.

Didn't seem to work that way for the Grandma Warriors. ANd since we're using a "one person might get ripped off" standard...

You haven't traveled in small towns, or without a cell phone. If you break down on the freeway, the shreriff will call a tow truck, but inless you have Triple A, you don't get to pick. That's what I was thinking of.

And then, if the first mechanic gives you quote that you think is wrong or too high, you have the luxury of towing your car to another mechanic. Especially with an expensive repair.

Again, not always. (Can you tell I drive old cars?)

Again with the Granny Warriors. They were paying too much for their repair, and were even stuck with the same "hospital" that misdiagnosed the original problem.

Money is never the only factor. There's always wait time, and quality too.

Last year, on a Sunday, my cousin cut his leg with a chainsaw. It was a fleshwound, but his doctor's office was closed and he was scared (no tetanus shot ever) of getting gangreen or something.

He went to the only place open, the hospital, they cleaned it, x-rayed it (shrapnel), stitched it (30 stiches), and sent him on his way after a tetanus shot. It took him 4 hours there, but in reality the nurses attended him for about 20 minutes, the rest of the time was just waiting around.

The cost? He got a shock. The bill was $4000. He called and complained, but could not get a reduction in price, and the lawyer said as long as they didn't double bill there wasn't much he could do. His doctor was of the opinion that it would have cost at his office $200 + cost of X-ray ($75).

Ad so we the people should pay for that? If the government was involved, it would ha vecost more.

This put him under financial hardship for half a year to pay for a simple thing. He's relatively poor and uninsured.

So, yeah, I don't think overpaying is a lame excuse. This isn't like buying a big screen TV somewhere.[/QUOTE]

He didn't overpay. he paid the same thing everybody else pays. It's the market rate. It's just that insurance and government payments have distorted the market beyond anything sensible.

So be a libertarian and give hom some of your hard earned cash. But don't demand that I cough up some of mine. My kids have had their fair share of multi-thousand dollar stitches too.
.
It ticks me off, but I hardly thinking making my neighbors chip in on his bill will do anything except give the hospital deeper pockets to pick.

And while he's recovering, he should check around town for the hospital that offers financial assistance.

YOu really think the bill would have been less if the government was footing the bill?

 

[trispear]

Didn't seem to work that way for the Grandma Warriors. ANd since we're using a "one person might get ripped off" standard...

That's because the Grandma warrior's didn't shop around even though they could and should have.

He didn't overpay. he paid the same thing everybody else pays. It's the market rate.

He paid probably 10x what insurance would have paid out. People without insurance get gouged.

It's just that insurance and government payments have distorted the market beyond anything sensible.

I think the issue here would be price gouging.

So be a libertarian and give hom some of your hard earned cash. But don't demand that I cough up some of mine. My kids have had their fair share of multi-thousand dollar stitches too.

Whose roof do you think he lives under

Although I don't think UHC is not as bad as people make it, I was not advocating UHC here, rather regulation against price gouging - two totally different things.

And while he's recovering, he should check around town for the hospital that offers financial assistance.

There was nothing to recover from, it was a deeper flesh wound. It may have become infected if not treated (like Cat bites in muscle could develop into something very serious 70%) but he was up and walking the next day.

YOu really think the bill would have been less if the government was footing the bill?

This is what's driving me nuts. I was not advocating the government footing the bill, but rather regulating emergency room care prices as it is not a free market situation in my eyes.

I wonder why nobody is addressing this aspect. Forget UHC for the moment, what in the world could ever make emergency room care subject to free market pricing? I think it's a contradiction.

 

[Corydoras]

what in the world could ever make emergency room care subject to free market pricing? I think it's a contradiction.

An awful LOT of people use emergency rooms the way they should use primary care physicians.

 

[johngr]

An awful LOT of people use emergency rooms the way they should use primary care physicians.

The concept of a "primary care physician" comes from managed care corporo-government fascist medicine. Do you mean family doctor?

 

[born2drv]

...we weren't trillions of dollars in debt.

What do you guys think?

I like the idea somewhat, but I would base it, and all social programs on the concept of unemployment. You can't collect forever, it's used only as a way of getting someone back on their feet.

So if you're a student and you find yourself now in the workforce looking for a job and need insurance in the meantime, or maybe if you were fired, or whatevever... you could apply for socialized medicine. But only as a means of getting back on your feet.

The problem with welfare, and all these social programs is it puts people in a position to stay dependent on government, and this is wrong. If we do give out entitlements, it should be on a temporary basis and should be used to encourage self-dependence, and only to those people who deserve it, and certainly not illegal immigrants.

Just my 2c.

 

[constituent]

Quick point - thalidimide is often used as an argument for preserving the FDA. It was never legal in the US.

the point is the consequence. yea, some new painkiller that the FDA has
approved might kill you, but something with consequences like those
of thalidamide really speak to people's emotions. if you want to defeat
the argument in a couple of quick sentences b/c dwelling on it would
ruin the conversation.... you can bring in a whole laundry list of examples
where FDA regulations caused death and why, but to keep it short and
bitter, thalidamide is the perfect example.

what is to prevent the FDA from approving just such a drug when you get
some idealogue put in charge of the place... so they only run the show
for three or four years, but how many people pay the price for those
three or four years? hundreds of thousands? maybe millions?

and would you be able to go after the government for this temporary oversight?

not likely. you'd probably still have to fund it through inflation and income tax (if you voted for a candidate touting free healthcare, that is), OR face prison time.

I find this construction works wonders against anyone shilling "universal healthcare." if on a rare occassion, conversation permits and you can get
into the other more practical consequences (mandatory checkups, on and on),
then those nails in the coffin... but you gotta go for the jugular (sp?), so to speak...