Universal health care wouldn't be that bad if...

[trispear]

I don't think you can say it's capitalistic if businesses are FORCED to provide healthcare for their employees. That's a really flawed system to begin with, seeing as how the average American changes employers every three to five years and a supposed "all inclusive" system doesn't include stay-at-home parents and the self-employed.

They must be doing something right. My brother lives in Austria (very similiar), is self-employed, 40+ years old, 205 pounds (paunchy but not fat) and he pays a premium of E200 ($280 a month) for full coverage including dental. It tops off at 2 million euro I believe. This insurance is not subsidized.

I don't know if the employers are forced to pay for your entire family, but it's not as expensive as here.

If you can't afford health insurance through the salary your employer gives you, where are you supposed to get it from?

 

[RP4ME]

Any attempts to apply socialism or despotism to industry results in stifling innovation and progress in said industry - read about in The Road to Serfdom by Hayek - tru free mkts are what thsi needs - to bring about teh BEST in health care and alseo bring prices down!!!

you can see thsi in otehr areas for ex. Oil vs alternative enegies - there are probably awesome al. but teh monopoly wont have it!!

 

[RP4ME]

They must be doing something right. My brother lives in Austria (very similiar), is self-employed, 40+ years old, 205 pounds (paunchy but not fat) and he pays a premium of E200 ($280 a month) for full coverage including dental. It tops off at 2 million euro I believe. This insurance is not subsidized.

I don't know if the employers are forced to pay for your entire family, but it's not as expensive as here.

If you can't afford health insurance through the salary your employer gives you, where are you supposed to get it from?

Free mkts would bring down teh cost of insurance!!! So thsi issue in a few years time would go away. In the meantime I know Paul has said there woudl need to be some govt assistance - like we have now - there are health clincs etc.... that peopel can go to for free or cheap tretmnets....

But I cant be repsonsible for everyone - if they cant afford it may be you as their neigbor woudl help them! I belive we have a responsiblity to help those less fortunate but i dont think teh govt needs to decide who i help and how to allocate my money

 

[Hope]

They must be doing something right. My brother lives in Austria (very similiar), is self-employed, 40+ years old, 205 pounds (paunchy but not fat) and he pays a premium of E200 ($280 a month) for full coverage including dental. It tops off at 2 million euro I believe. This insurance is not subsidized.

I don't know if the employers are forced to pay for your entire family, but it's not as expensive as here.

If you can't afford health insurance through the salary your employer gives you, where are you supposed to get it from?

It's not as expensive UP FRONT. What your brother pays is not all of what there is. He's getting paid less overall and the businesses there are overcharing for goods and services to make up the difference.

I hate that Americans have been tricked into believing they need insurance for everything under the sun. There was a time when insurance was just that...insurance for an unforeseen catastrophic accident. Now people get dental insurance, hell they get pet insurance for their pet's future visits to the vet. Insurance operates on the gamble that those who pay into it will not get more out of it than they put in. It's our dependence on insurance that has made things so expensive.

I advocate getting catastrophic insurance in case you have a heart attack or get in a car accident or get cancer. But insurance -- gov't sponsored or not -- is not the way to get cheaper medical care on a day to day basis. Imagine if you took the money you'd be paying to an insurance company -- I think the national average is around $600 a month -- and put that into a high interest savings account. That would more than cover a year's worth of typical health care AND you can put what you don't use to next year's care. Why don't people do it? Because it involves responsibility on their part to budget for their own family's care.

There are other ways to reduce medical costs that have already been mentioned here and that Dr. Paul himself has extrapolated on. But weaning ourselves off the parasitic insurance companies is the first major step in bringing us closer to the medical care system we dream about before we go to bed at night.

 

[Original_Intent]

@ CAK

I wholly agree. The private health care shouldn't be killed off. But I'm thinking that universal health care could be an "opt-in" system.

If it is "opt-in" then it isn't universal.

If it is "opt-in for your free government paid healthcare" it is universal and it is socialsim and it drives healthcare costs up and quality down.

There was a great op-ed piece today on healthcare that I posted ot these forums somewhere. It was by John Stossel and it was spot on. I will see if I can find it and link it.

 

[nexalacer]

Free mkts would bring down teh cost of insurance!!! So thsi issue in a few years time would go away. In the meantime I know Paul has said there woudl need to be some govt assistance - like we have now - there are health clincs etc.... that peopel can go to for free or cheap tretmnets....

But I cant be repsonsible for everyone - if they cant afford it may be you as their neigbor woudl help them! I belive we have a responsiblity to help those less fortunate but i dont think teh govt needs to decide who i help and how to allocate my money

Let's be clear, free markets would NOT have insurance for day to day medical needs. It would be just like other industries, where insurance is only purchased as a safety net for the real big problems - unexpected things like broken bones, major surgery, cancer, etc.

There would also be insurance BEFORE birth for birth defects, such as cerebral palsy, downs-syndrome, etc.

There is no need for employers paying insurance fees because there is no need for insurance, if we didn't have the government getting involved with the whole damn system. The biggest thing we could do to lower costs of health care is KILL THE DOCTORS UNION! The AMA is the worst thing ever for health care.

 

[Original_Intent]

Here is the link to the John Stossel article on healthcare

http://www.nysun.com/article/63834?page_no=1

 

[RP4ME]

!!!

 

[RP4ME]

Let's be clear, free markets would NOT have insurance for day to day medical needs. It would be just like other industries, where insurance is only purchased as a safety net for the real big problems - unexpected things like broken bones, major surgery, cancer, etc.

There would also be insurance BEFORE birth for birth defects, such as cerebral palsy, downs-syndrome, etc.

There is no need for employers paying insurance fees because there is no need for insurance, if we didn't have the government getting involved with the whole damn system. The biggest thing we could do to lower costs of health care is KILL THE DOCTORS UNION! The AMA is the worst thing ever for health care.

Thats precisley why i am saying insurance costs will go down. Medical societies actually are just owned by pharma and supress those who may see things diffrently or seek to practice diffrentlly!

 

[jjockers]

I posted this in 'issues' section today..

"So-called Universal Healthcare amplifies all problems because it:

1) Destroys patient incentives to find the best possible prices for the best possible services/products available.
I have worked in the health care field in various capacities for the past ten years and I see a majority of patients who currently receive "free" (read: taxpayer-funded) healthcare continually seek care for the most minor afflictions. Why wouldn't they? It's "free" to them so they visit the doctor's office several times a month. "Free" prescriptions for over-the-counter medication such as Tylenol are very common. Patients who refuse to wait for an appointment make their way to the ER for things such as headaches. If you were ever an ER nurse, I know you can verify this.

The current U.S. mostly statist healthcare system also decreases incentives to "shop around" for people who are not receiving direct taxpayer-funded care. If you are paying a set amount per month and your copay is ten dollars per office visit no matter where you go, why bother to look for a better price? Government imposed wage controls during the 1940's carry a large part of the blame for this current state of affairs. Unable to offer competitive salaries, companies started to offer healthcare benefits as a way to lure prospective employees into jobs.

2) Destroys physician incentives to provide competitive care and destroys drug companies' incentives to provide new drugs and treatments.
With no incentive to provide quality care, physicians and nurses leave the government-monopolized area for better opportunities in a freer country. Shortages result. Drug companies are hindered by price controls and regulations and soon cease research and development of new medication. In the U.S., start-up drug companies cannot afford to run the FDA gauntlet, so the market is dominated by a few established corporations.

3) Steals from your wallet to pay for my health care.
Yes, you do have a right to health care, just as you have a right to food, shelter and property. However, you have no "right" to force others to provide these things for you - All "free" medical care is paid for through taxes stolen from other people.

I know of one seemingly healthy individual who went to his physician's office 51 times in 26 months. He receives "free" health care from the State, so his trips did not cost him a dime. Who pays for his medications? Who pays for the physicians', nurses' and office staff wages during his visits? If you work within the health care industry, I would bet you could recount similar stories. In my experience, this type of abuse is the rule, not the exception.

4) The quality of "free" health care will deteriorate and the average citizen will get sicker.
As the poor and middle-class wait in agony for simple procedures, those with resources can travel to other countries for treatment. But hey, your moral arrogance and justification of coercion makes you feel good, doesn't it?

5) Destroys your privacy.
Suddenly your problems are mine and mine are yours. If you are eating unhealthy foods or driving a motorcycle without a helmet, I have a direct interest in your business - you are going to see a doctor on my tax dollars. Your neighbors might support government bans on smoking, "unsafe" sex or other "risky" behaviors to reduce costs. Politicians will use the federal bureaucracy to force you and your family to comply with programs such as the "New Freedom Commission on Mental Health".

6) Destroys your liberty.
When you blindly support a system that gives politicians and bureaucrats the power to force others to follow a plan, those politicians and bureaucrats will receive their orders from those with the most money - and you can guarantee this will not be you, your friends or your family. The power of government will be used against you as you are forced to use medicines or accept treatments from well-connected health care companies.

A quick search shows that the pharmaceutical companies gave $29,370,351 to political campaigns in 2002. Who do you think has the ear of those elected politicians? You?

On the other hand, if government power is eliminated (e.g., abolish the FDA - whose restrictions benefit the most powerful companies by eliminating most competition), those same companies would have to use their funds and resources to sell their drugs to the most people in the least expensive, most reliable and safest way. They would need to outperform their competitors to get your money - otherwise they lose business. "

*note* I did not write this, but it resonates well.

 

[trispear]

It's not as expensive UP FRONT. What your brother pays is not all of what there is. He's getting paid less overall and the businesses there are overcharing for goods and services to make up the difference.

Actually, I find food there a bit cheaper (in stores), probably about the same when the lower salaries are taken into consideration.

I also find most expenses the same. Rent though, is cheaper, because property tax is like E50 a year. I found some nice, new places to rent for E250 a month (~$340) that includes tiled bathroom, living room, bedroom, kitchen in nice suburban areas that would go here for $1200 or more a month, depending on location.

After adjusting for salary, I would think most things are of even parity except for electronics and gasoline. You also have to remember that there is a ~20% saletax on items (already in the price).

But, I guess the McDonalds is more expensive. Street vendors are less expensive so I go to them.

 

[nexalacer]

Actually, I find food there a bit cheaper (in stores), probably about the same when the lower salaries are taken into consideration.

I also find most expenses the same. Rent though, is cheaper, because property tax is like E50 a year. I found some nice, new places to rent for E250 a month (~$340) that includes tiled bathroom, living room, bedroom, kitchen in nice suburban areas that would go here for $1200 or more a month, depending on location.

After adjusting for salary, I would think most things are of even parity except for electronics and gasoline. You also have to remember that there is a ~20% saletax on items (already in the price).

But, I guess the McDonalds is more expensive. Street vendors are less expensive so I go to them.

You're trying to refute that things cost more somewhere, yet you say that there is a 20%!! sales tax on all goods, but imply that it's OK because it's already in the price? Dude, it's still more expensive! How much is the income tax on top of that 20% sales tax? THIS is where your brother is paying for his health care, not in the deductibles.... but still he has fairly high deductibles! I think you've proven the case AGAINST government run health care.

 

[trispear]

You're trying to refute that things cost more somewhere, yet you say that there is a 20%!! sales tax on all goods, but imply that it's OK because it's already in the price?

Actually, what I'm saying is that in spite of the 20% tax inherent in the price -- the prices are relatively the same or lower over there compared to here when you consider differing salaries.

Like I said, in my experience, over there food, drink, daily household items are cheaper in my experience. Rent (much more so), car insurance, and health insurance as well. Stuff like electronics (except cell phones) or new cars are a bit more expensive. Gas is much more expensive (heavily taxed) but that is offset by the close distances to everything and extensive public transportation.

The 20% Vat is not paying any UHC, because Germany does not have UHC. It replaces the school tax/property tax in America. I think there is also some BS European Union tax in that 20% but it would be relatively new.

Dude, it's still more expensive! How much is the income tax on top of that 20% sales tax? THIS is where your brother is paying for his health care, not in the deductibles.... but still he has fairly high deductibles!

Um, I said his health care is not subsidized by the state (remember that's France and England with UHC, not Germany) and he's self-employed so he as an employer has to pay his own healthcare.

I did not mention his deductibles (I think it's E50), just that he's covered by his insurance up to a million or two.

 

[hard@work]

I think socialized health care is an absolute necessity. And I think we should achieve it 100% through CHARITY. The thought that we cannot fund it ourselves is disgusting to me. But then again I realize what it means to have a gold standard and 0 tax on labor.

 

[Corydoras]

do you need a man with a PhD to give you an antibiotic when you are sick? Couldn't a nurse do that for half the cost?

Exactly. For example, the free market will expand demand for nurse practitioners.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_practitioner

The way things are now, people have no incentive to see NPs, even though they can do so much of what a physician does.

 

[Corydoras]

If you can't afford health insurance through the salary your employer gives you, where are you supposed to get it from?

RP wants to encourage availability of affordable high-deductible health insurance, which is far cheaper than a first-dollar plan. And he wants the premiums to be tax-advantaged (I can't remember whether he said a credit or a deduction). Patients could keep the money for the deductible in a tax-advantaged health care savings account, which would increase in value (because it's a savings account) and which they would not need to spend except in an emergency, giving them an incentive to take care of their own health so that they would not have to spend that money.

In other words, people would be empowered to collaborate in their own health care.

 

[Corydoras]

wanna peek inside socialzed medicine - go visit your local VA!!!!!! Still think its sounds great....???

I have never met even one veteran who didn't want to flee the VA system and go to a civilian hospital. They really hate it and are afraid for their health.

It's a prime example of socialized medicine. If this is what this country does for people who are willing to lay their lives down for our defense, what chance do the rest of us have for getting decent care?

(A side point: Ron Paul's plan is to dismantle the VA system and let vets go wherever they want for their care.)

 

[buffalokid777]

Universal health care COULD be good as a safety net....

But ONLY if the PROFIT is taken out of sickness.....

I grew up VERY unhealthy...sick all the time when I was young.

As I got older.....I learned where my parents went wrong and about the Sickness for profit scam by the corporate structures that profit from it. It is really an Unholy alliance between the Food Processors and Big Medicine.

I could write a book on it....and probably should.

I can proudly say I haven't been sick or caught a cold in MANY years from what I learned....

Universal Health care could ONLY be good in a society that promotes wellness to it's citizens and that is NOT the United States at this time.

Take for example some nasty poisons that are regularly consumed by Americans....

Start with Fluoride....Fluoride is MORE poisonous than lead....yet we put it in our drinking water. Foods that use water for processing actually concentrate Fluoride in the food.

FLUORIDE IS MORE POISONOUS THAN LEAD....I DARE SOMEONE TO PROVE ME WRONG!

How about Corn Syrup, and High Fructose Corn Syrup, Along with Modified Corn Starch?

This stuff was not nearly as harmful as it used to be before GMO corn...

Since Genetically Modified Corn came into play, the amounts of food with these ingredients has easily risen 150%

To avoid Corn Syrup, High Fructose Corn Syrup, and Modified Corn Starch has become INCREASINGLY difficult in the American diet.

And most Drugs do more harm than good....they simply mask the symptoms rather than getting rid of the root of the problem.

If you want to be no longer sick....learn about wellness though diet.

A GREAT site I would recommend is

www.mercola.com

while I did not learn what I know about health from that site....

It contains practically everything I have learned when I found it, and then some more. This knowledge has allowed me to be well for many years

I would recommend it to anyone who wishes to improve their health.

 

[Corydoras]

mercola.com is a for-profit site that both offers free information and sells products.

 

[johngr]

To me, the costs and the unfair burden on productive people is the least of the problems with nationalized "health" care. Under such a system, all your medical records would certainly be property of the State subject to their agents' perusal at any time (with all potential abuses that entails). Edwards was talking about even requiring physician visits. You could forget about any alternatives to cut, burn and poison. They would have more political cover for all kinds of control of what were once personal choices. Some of us old-timers might one day have this conversation: "Hey, Jack, remember when we used ride our motorcycles 100 miles every Sunday and after that, smoke cigars, drink beer and play poker?" (games of chance increase heart rate; which would show up telemetrically on the central US health monitoring system) "Yeah, Jim, it was sure nice before state-controlled medicine!"