Two gunmen carrying explosives attack anti Muslim art contest in Texas

I don't know, John. I won't say you are "hopeless" but certainly I can't be expected to keep hammering away when your entire argument is like a 5-year-old saying, "He started it!" Really though, your outlook is just a primitive form of "ends justify the means" which is shared by a huge portion of the population they just voice it with a little more finesse.

You need to go back and study your Taoism that you put in your signature. You clearly do not understand the strategy and point of non-contention.

What happened to "sticks and stones (and guns) may break my bones but names will never hurt me"?

I guess I just find it shocking that someone on this forum would see harmless speech as justification for violence. No one is harmed by the drawing of muhammad. This is not yelling fire in a crowded theater.
 
I guess I just find it shocking that someone on this forum would see harmless speech as justification for violence.

I find it shocking that you either can't read or simply continue to lie because I've said again and again that I don't think the shooters were justified.

The first sentence in the article I posted says they were morally wrong. The sentence begins with "It was morally wrong..". When you are "morally wrong" that means you were not justified in your actions. If you were justified then you would not be morally wrong.

Do you actually read to understand or just to reply? Are you on drugs? Do you have a mental disability?
 
I find it shocking that you either can't read or simply continue to lie because I've said again and again that I don't think the shooters were justified.

The first sentence in the article I posted says they were morally wrong. The sentence begins with "It was morally wrong..". When you are "morally wrong" that means you were not justified in your actions. If you were justified then you would not be morally wrong.

Do you actually read to understand or just to reply? Are you on drugs? Do you have a mental disability?

If what the cartoonists did was NOT 'justification' for violence, how can you say they were in the wrong here? Cartoonists, who are now censored by both PC standards and religious radicals threatening death, have every right to feel some antagonism towards those who look to control them. There's a chapter in one of Ron's books about how political correctness is a tool of control. Just as I don't want the government to tell us what we can or cant say or draw, the same goes for religious radicals telling us what's ok.

Trust me, I get it that Pamela Geller is the WORST. But she's not violating anyone's rights by being a bitch.
 
She's 100% right.

Even when she calls her self Rosa Parks?
But seriously, do you agree with Pamela Geller's world view.. specifically her views on Israel-Palestine dispute and primary causes of 9/11 (original) terror attacks against US? Her ad campaign suggests Israel does no wrong and Palestinians/Muslims are savages motivated to attack jews because of their religion solely but does not even mention the elephant of a factor of four deacdes old US financed Israeli occupation/oppression/slaughter of Palestinains.

To the untrained eye she comes across as a hate filled zionist extremist disowned by moderate jews and lost in some blind faith in supremacist zionism interpretations perhaps as a coping mechanism to deal with some trauma she may have suffered. Don't know much about her history or psychological catalysts behind her obsession with taunting muslims/palestinians, but even if Pam Geller lost a husband/sibling or parent in European gas chambers or in Israel-Palestinian violence which is not repeorted in recent news, hers does not seem like rational or mentally healthy behavior.

In case you still think Pam Geller is "100% right", how would you explain these terror attacks against Israel/zionists by Palestinian Christians if primary motive behind anti-zionist terror is religion? Copy paste from another discussion:

Terrorism's Christian Godfather

By Scott MacLeod/Cairo Monday, Jan. 28, 2008


360_george_habash_0128.jpg


"Habash's group, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palest ine (P F L P), pioneered the hi jacking of airplanes as a Middle East terror tactic — one eventually employed by the al-Qaeda hi jackers on 9/11 — way back in 1968 when three P F L P armed operatives commandeered an Israel i El Al ai rliner enroute from Rome to Tel Aviv. Checking in for a flight has never been the same since.

Many P F L P operations remain etched into history as some of the most infamous acts of terrorism. In 1970, P F L P terrorists hijacked four air liners at one time, flew three of them to Jordan, blew them up, and triggered the Black September civil war between Jordan's Hashemite monarchy and Palestinian guerrillas. In 1972, Japanese Red Army terrorists working with the PFLP massacred 24 people at Israel's Lod International Air port (now called B e n G u r i o n International Air port).

What led Habash, a Christian physician — hence his nickname al-Hakim or the doctor — into such a life, of revolution, of killing? The son of a well-to-do merchant, he was trained at the American University of Beirut, the most liberal university in the Middle East then as now. His background was almost identical to that of his best friend, Wadia Haddad, the No. 2 in the PFLP and the operational genius and passionate proponent of the group's terrorist acts. When I asked Habash that question during a series of interviews many years ago, he simply told me about his personal experiences when his family lost its home during israel's 1948 War of Independence, what the Palestinians call the C a t a s t r o p h e."

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...707366,00.html


Bobby Kennedy assassinated by a Palestinian Christian after listening to Bobby's pro Israel speech on TV

RFK-Bostan-dispatch.png




Palestinian Christian leader in Canada: Shoot Israeli Jews if they don’t leave Jerusalem

Canada's largest Church joins boycott Israel campaign

9/11 was to punish U.S. for Israel policy: Philip Zelikow 9/11 Commission Exec. Dir.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHely2_KkC4&list=PLfrlsC1yJ2dRtvvzX47VwYbu6X-cQuvMM





Again, no one is harmed by speech.

Your premise is no longer true in the modern freedom era it seems, outcome of free speech may depend on the race/religion of the person exercising speech.



Free Speech exercise by these Arabs / Muslims resulted in arrest/assassination:



kid-drone.jpg





Comics A.M. | French teen arrested for posting ‘Charlie Hebdo’ parody

by Brigid Alverson | January 23, 2015
From the apparent cartoon in question

A 16-year-old in Nantes, France, was arrested last week for posting a cartoon on Facebook that mocks the Charlie Hebdo killings..
The cartoon shows someone holding a copy of Charlie Hebdo and being struck by bullets. Electronic Intifada posts what is most likely the offending cartoon (it had been shared widely on social media), a takeoff on one of the more notorious Charlie Hebdo covers, accompanied by the text, “Charlie Hebdo is shit. It doesn’t stop bullets.”




Free Speech exercise by these zionsist Jews resulted in free speech protection:

Publisher of the ‘Atlanta Jewish Times’ suggests Mossad should assassinate Obama
Adam Horowitz on January 20, 2012
John Cook reports at Gawker:
Andrew Adler, the owner and publisher of the Atlanta Jewish Times, a weekly newspaper serving Atlanta’s Jewish community, devoted his January 13, 2012 column to the thorny problem of the U.S. and Israel’s diverging views on the threat posed by Iran. Basically Israel has three options, he wrote: Strike Hezbollah and Hamas, strike Iran, or “order a hit” on Barack Obama. Either way, problem solved!
Here’s how Adler laid out “option three” in his list of scenarios facing Israeli president Benjamin Netanyahu (the column, which was forwarded to us by a tipster, isn’t online, but you can read a copy here):
Three, give the go-ahead for U.S.-based Mossad agents to take out a president deemed unfriendly to Israel in order for the current vice president to take his place, and forcefully dictate that the United States’ policy includes its helping the Jewish state obliterate its enemies.

Yes, you read “three” correctly. Order a hit on a president in order to preserve Israel’s existence. Think about it. If I have thought of this Tom Clancy-type scenario, don’t you think that this almost unfathomable idea has been discussed in Israel’s most inner circles?
Another way of putting “three” in perspective goes something like this: How far would you go to save a nation comprised of seven million lives…Jews, Christians and Arabs alike?
You have got to believe, like I do, that all options are on the table.





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So somebody finally figured out how to get that trash to come out of the woodwork. I'm glad there was a cop there to shoot them. Perhaps we need more people calling out that trash so more of them can meet their maker.
 
I'd say at least 50% of the people here know free speech is only for those with power.

There are things I simply can not say that I want to.

But those with power can say whatever they want. And they do.

Free speech is only for those with power.
 
So somebody finally figured out how to get that trash to come out of the woodwork. I'm glad there was a cop there to shoot them. Perhaps we need more people calling out that trash so more of them can meet their maker.


Yeah! Like all the dead Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq!

Same with the ones crippled, maimed, and bloodied!

Especially the ones who got their nuts blown off!
 
Even when she calls her self Rosa Parks?
But seriously, do you agree with Pamela Geller's world view.. specifically her views on Israel-Palestine dispute and primary causes of 9/11 (original) terror attacks against US? Her ad campaign suggests Israel does no wrong and Palestinians/Muslims are savages motivated to attack jews because of their religion solely but does not even mention the elephant of a factor of four deacdes old US financed Israeli occupation/oppression/slaughter of Palestinains.

She's right that this particular incident is a clear issue of free speech. One side can't seem to deal with it. If it was socially acceptable to kill someone for offending you, half of us wouldn't have made it out of the 5th grade.
 
She's right that this particular incident is a clear issue of free speech. One side can't seem to deal with it. If it was socially acceptable to kill someone for offending you, half of us wouldn't have made it out of the 5th grade.

You said in response to this that she is 100% right:

They needed a [Cr]ISIS. This woman is the spokesperson taking all the interviews telling everyone it is "a war on free speech." Great publicity.

27F1809200000578-0-image-a-102_1430713344010.jpg

Do you agree 100% with just her view on war on free speech but not her views expressed in her ads calling for support for Israel/opposition to palestinians?

She is not 100% right on anything though, her premise implies there is free speech in America/Europe which is a bogus premise to begin with as shown above in the free speech examples of Abdulrhamn Alwaliki and Andrew Adler. At best her premise is slightly right.
 
If what the cartoonists did was NOT 'justification' for violence, how can you say they were in the wrong here? Cartoonists, who are now censored by both PC standards and religious radicals threatening death, have every right to feel some antagonism towards those who look to control them. There's a chapter in one of Ron's books about how political correctness is a tool of control. Just as I don't want the government to tell us what we can or cant say or draw, the same goes for religious radicals telling us what's ok.

Trust me, I get it that Pamela Geller is the WORST. But she's not violating anyone's rights by being a bitch.

I get what you are saying, I think more than you do and I'm not trying to be flippant by saying that.

I posted above about Rothbard because that's where this "rights" question is coming from philosophically.

But "rights" only set boundaries that can be enforced by government. They do not cover the "higher eschelons of ethical philosophy" as Rothbard puts it. Meaning, no, she didn't violate their rights, but morality goes beyond rights. There are things that are morally wrong that don't violate rights.

Geller's speech is protected, yes, but bad speech is protected so that good speech isn't taken away. We don't protect bad speech because all free speech is morally good. We protect bad speech because in general people don't judge properly between good and bad but between what is accepted and what is offensive. Sometimes what is good speech is offensive. That doesn't mean that all offensive speech is a moral good.

To go deeper, if you want to know where I'm coming from, I totally disagree with the underlined text you said above. That my friend is wholly non-Christian. Now a lot of people think that "natural law" boils down to rights but I don't believe that. Rights are "what we can all generally agree on in society". To me the "natural law" is moral law and most clearly described by Christ. And Christ says you DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO FEEL ANTAGONISM even to your enemy. This is also a Taoist concept. That's why I brought up the taoist concept of non-contention.

In Taoism violence is a last resort as it is also in Christianity. There is never a sense of vengenance. That is why it is said:

Tao Te Ching 31

Weapons are the tools of violence
all decent men detest them.

Weapons are the tools of fear;
a decent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint.
Peace is his highest value.
If the peace has been shattered,
how can he be content?
His enemies are not demons,
but human beings like himself.

He doesn't wish them personal harm.
Nor does he rejoice in victory.
How could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?

He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral.

So while I'm sure Geller has intellectual justifications for her anger as you have pointed out, when we are speaking about Christian or even Taoist morals they do not have a "moral right". We can understand their position but we cannot call that position anything accept morally wrong. As dangerous and destructive as murder? No, but evil just the same.
 
Pam Geller's incentive for having the event was to cause an incident which would further fan the flames and cause America to become more deeply involved in the Middle East conflicts.

All for the benefit of Israel.

She's not finished.
 
Well, it is kind of funny. My favorite part is:

"We knew the target was protected. Our intent was to show how easy we give our lives for the Sake of Allah."

Really? And this is exactly what I meant way up in this thread when someone said Texas-2 ISIS-0, and I corrected, "No, if you think that you don't understand ISIS, it's 2-2". To these fanatics a victory or a defeat is always a victory.

ISIS loves them some sour grapes.

i-meant-to-do-that.png


I can only wish ISIS more such "success". The fact that the perceptions differ so widely is a cause of conflict.
 
Pam Geller's incentive for having the event was to cause an incident which would further fan the flames and cause America to become more deeply involved in the Middle East conflicts.

All for the benefit of Israel.

She's not finished.

She is far more guilty of murder of middle easterners than most american soldiers who joined for the college money.
 
Blaming the Mohammed art contest is like saying the art contest deserved it because they offended people to act in a violent way.

Okay. By that logic, we can blame rape victims. We can say rape victims dressed too sexy, which gave the rapist the wrong idea!

Both the mohammed contest and the rape victim did nothing wrong. They both were practicing their freedoms without hurting anyone. but they both got attacked.

Going out of your way to stir up trouble and instigate anger is doing nothing wrong? I beg to differ. Not only is it wrong (at least from a Christian perspective) but it's stupid.
 
I get what you are saying, I think more than you do and I'm not trying to be flippant by saying that.

I posted above about Rothbard because that's where this "rights" question is coming from philosophically.

But "rights" only set boundaries that can be enforced by government. They do not cover the "higher eschelons of ethical philosophy" as Rothbard puts it. Meaning, no, she didn't violate their rights, but morality goes beyond rights. There are things that are morally wrong that don't violate rights.

Geller's speech is protected, yes, but bad speech is protected so that good speech isn't taken away. We don't protect bad speech because all free speech is morally good. We protect bad speech because in general people don't judge properly between good and bad but between what is accepted and what is offensive. Sometimes what is good speech is offensive. That doesn't mean that all offensive speech is a moral good.

To go deeper, if you want to know where I'm coming from, I totally disagree with the underlined text you said above. That my friend is wholly non-Christian. Now a lot of people think that "natural law" boils down to rights but I don't believe that. Rights are "what we can all generally agree on in society". To me the "natural law" is moral law and most clearly described by Christ. And Christ says you DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO FEEL ANTAGONISM even to your enemy. This is also a Taoist concept. That's why I brought up the taoist concept of non-contention.

In Taoism violence is a last resort as it is also in Christianity. There is never a sense of vengenance. That is why it is said:



So while I'm sure Geller has intellectual justifications for her anger as you have pointed out, when we are speaking about Christian or even Taoist morals they do not have a "moral right". We can understand their position but we cannot call that position anything accept morally wrong. As dangerous and destructive as murder? No, but evil just the same.


I agree with pretty much everything you write. I agree that morality goes beyond rights. I agree there is speech that is immoral. We differ in that I do not believe that the drawing of muhammad is immoral. The fact that something makes others angry does not making it immoral. I DO believe that speech which says "you cannot say X, Y, or Z or you should be murdered" is immoral.


Trust me, it's hard for me to be on Pam Geller's side here.
 
Where do you get that?

There were no ISIS adherents.

There were two FBI incited idiots..

and the government wins again :(

NO they weren't.

The 2nd amendment was not involved,, nor was the First.

You can not provoke violence and then claim self defense.

and government mercenaries are not what the 2nd amendment is there to protect.

That is what I suspect too....and it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Last year I made a short video on being aware of propaganda in the media... and I wasn't even familiar with Pamela Geller until I made that video, because it just so happened that 2 of the blatantly false reports I found came from her website. And even after she was informed of that by numerous people, she didn't take down or change the story. That led me to wonder who she really is, and what her real motivation is.

That's why when I heard she was the organizer of this event, I started to wonder if the whole thing was somehow staged.
 
I feel like Geller's involvement is more of a sticking point here than the idea of not drawing muhammad. I'll even concede the point that SHE may have wanted this to happen. She's a sick fuck.

But I don't think she PLANNED it, and I don't think the attendees wanted it to happen. I'd even argue that HAD they wanted it to happen, they are still not on the same level as the gunmen, morally.


Thought experiment: Let's say half the crowd attended in the HOPES that it would provoke REAL violence. The other half went because of their SINCERE belief in the need to practice one's freedoms in order to safeguard them, and believed events like this, when handled peacefully, could help show the US that most Muslims AREN'T radicals who want to tell you what you can and cannot draw. Would, given what happened, half the audience be in the wrong and the other half in the right? Both be in the right? Both be in the wrong?
 
This court decision is getting a lot of talk on CNN and all:

Chaplinsky, a Jehovah's Witness, called a city marshal a "God-damned racketeer" and "a damned fascist" in a public place. He was arrested and convicted under a state law for violating a breach of the peace.
Question

Does the application of the statute violate Chaplinsky's freedom of speech protected by the First Amendment?
Conclusion

No. Some forms of expression--among them obscenity and fighting words--do not convey ideas and thus are not subject to First Amendment protection. In this case, Chaplinsky uttered fighting words, i.e., words that "inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace."


http://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1949/1941/1941_255

Crackdown on hate speech and provocative speech coming?
 
This court decision is getting a lot of talk on CNN and all:



Crackdown on hate speech and provocative speech coming?

No, you'll be able to say this shit about Muslims all day long.

Just don't say it about Americans or their lackeys. And definitely don't say it about the Jews.
 
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