Turkey Shoots Down Russian Military Plane Near Syrian Border

asurfaholic said:
The fail is strong with this one. If America goes to war with Russia, it is over. We lose.

And even if you disagree with that, there is no denying that Russia is a superpower. It is not like turkey shot down a jet from Cuba.
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You do realize you are responding to bxm042, right?
 
If you believe what the Turks are saying, regarding the circumstances of the incident, there are two possibilities:

(a) somebody in the Turkish military forgot the rules of engagement and fucked up royally, and now they're just trying to save face

or (b) this was intended to provoke a Russian response, for propaganda purposes (perhaps to provide justification for a "no fly zone")

If you believe what the Russians are saying about the incident, then it's almost certainly the latter (which'd be my guess).
 
^^^^^^
It's also possible that the jet wasn't shot down by Turkish military. Easy scapegoat though.
 
r3volution 3.0 said:
But both sides are saying it was a Turkish F-16, so you think they're colluding to lie about it?
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In a manner of speaking, yes possibly. If the jet were shot down by a NATO ally instead of Turkish military, would Turkey snitch on the NATO ally? Or would Turkey refuse to apologize (as Erdogan has refused), offer an olive branch (as Erdogan did yesterday to Putin), and hope that if the downing led to a military confrontation then rely on that NATO ally to come to their aid? Just a hypothesis with little evidence but false flags usually start wars historically.
 
Turkish president says wishes plane downing had not happened

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Saturday voiced regret over Turkey's downing of a Russian warplane, saying his country was "truly saddened" by the incident and wished it hadn't occurred.

It was the first expression of regret by the strongman leader since Tuesday's incident in which Turkish F-16 jets shot down the Russian jet on grounds that it had violated Turkey's airspace despite repeated warnings to change course. It was the first time in half a century that a NATO member shot down a Russian plane and drew a harsh response from Moscow
 
devil21 said:
In a manner of speaking, yes possibly. If the jet were shot down by a NATO ally instead of Turkish military, would Turkey snitch on the NATO ally? Or would Turkey refuse to apologize (as Erdogan has refused), offer an olive branch (as Erdogan did yesterday to Putin), and hope that if the downing led to a military confrontation then rely on that NATO ally to come to their aid? Just a hypothesis with little evidence but false flags usually start wars historically.
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As to motives, you're suggesting that it was ill-intended (something like, say, provoking the Russians into a response which would then give a West cause for a "no fly zone" in Syria), but it was the US (or France or whoever) who hatched and executed the plan, without Turkey's knowledge? Yea, that's plausible, I could buy that. All else being equal, Turkey does seem like it'd be less likely to poke the bear (having no nukes of its own, and neighboring said bear) than the US or France.
 
r3volution 3.0 said:
...(b) this was intended to provoke a Russian response, for propaganda purposes (perhaps to provide justification for a "no fly zone")

If you believe what the Russians are saying about the incident, then it's almost certainly the latter (which'd be my guess).
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Yeah, except who out here do we think is going to issue such an ultimatum to Russia and expect it to... erm... "fly"?

In a head to head, old fashioned war, I am not convinced we would kick Russia's ass. We have better equipment, better pilots, and in many ways better training. But Russia has shit-tons of materiel and what their soldiers may lack in tech, they more than make up for with sheer, brute tough. The only Americans who think they are tougher than Russians are the ones who know nothing about them. I despise those barbaric stooges, but have to give them props for their sand, of which they have WAY more than the average American.

So issuing such an ultimatum to people like that is worth less than the sheet of toilet paper Obama just used to wipe.
 
r3volution 3.0 said:
If you believe what the Turks are saying, regarding the circumstances of the incident, there are two possibilities:

(a) somebody in the Turkish military forgot the rules of engagement and fucked up royally, and now they're just trying to save face

or (b) this was intended to provoke a Russian response, for propaganda purposes (perhaps to provide justification for a "no fly zone")

If you believe what the Russians are saying about the incident, then it's almost certainly the latter (which'd be my guess).
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Russia for a while denied that their plane had even been shot down. Even after they had sent in a helicopter to try to rescue the downed pilots.
 
osan said:
Yeah, except who out here do we think is going to issue such an ultimatum to Russia and expect it to... erm... "fly"?

In a head to head, old fashioned war, I am not convinced we would kick Russia's ass. We have better equipment, better pilots, and in many ways better training. But Russia has shit-tons of materiel and what their soldiers may lack in tech, they more than make up for with sheer, brute tough. The only Americans who think they are tougher than Russians are the ones who know nothing about them. I despise those barbaric stooges, but have to give them props for their sand, of which they have WAY more than the average American.

So issuing such an ultimatum to people like that is worth less than the sheet of toilet paper Obama just used to wipe.
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As you might expect, I think shooting down Russian planes in Syria's a terrible idea - risks escalation to a nuclear war.

But the nutters in Washington seem to think the Russians'll just grin and take it.

...as far as who would actually win a conventional air war in Syria, I have to disagree with you: US, hands down.

Not only better equipment, but lots more of it, and more transport capability to get it into Syria.

...not to mention possible assistance from regional and European allies.
 
r3volution 3.0 said:
But the nutters in Washington seem to think the Russians'll just grin and take it.
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That is exactly what Russia will do. They may respond in some remedial way but they won't be baited into dropping the hammer. I think that was all an effort to bait them into something by shooting that plane down. Btw, Russian planes are rather fast. That plane would have had to have been in a stall to be in their airspace for as long as they said it was.
 
Putin says to international community (paraphrasing) "Let's all open the black box together, if you are really interested in the truth."

Well played.

Downed Su-24’s black box to reveal truth about Turkey’s treacherous strike – Putin

https://www.rt.com/news/325158-su24-black-box-truth-turkey/

The flight recorder of the Russian Su-24 recently downed by Turkey in Syria has been recovered and presented to President Putin, who said it must be opened in the presence of international experts to reveal truth about the treacherous “stab in the back.”
Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu provided Russian President Vladimir Putin with the recovered flight recorder on Tuesday during their meeting in Moscow. Shoigu said that Russia has been actively conducting operations on Syrian territory, where the Russian Su-24 pilot was “gunned down” by Turkmen militants after he had ejected from the plane.

“As a result of this work, these territories were liberated by the special operations forces and the Syrian army’s special force tasked with the crew search. Surveying the area, the Syrian military found the plane’s crash site,” he said.

The militants, who “actively” fled the area, had no chance to dismantle anything which was among the debris from the plane, the minister added.

The Russian leader emphasized that the parametric flight recorder should be opened and decoded only in the presence of international experts who are genuinely interested in finding out the truth about the incident.

“As I understand, the flight data recorder will give us the opportunity to understand the Su-24's trajectory from the moment of its take-off to the moment of the crash,” Putin said. “This means we will be able to understand where it was [at the moment of the downing] and where the treacherous strike from the Turkish Air Force was dealt… in any case, we should invite everyone who wants to participate in this work.”

“But whatever we might learn will not change our attitude towards the deed by the Turkish authorities. We have considered Turkey not only a friendly country, but also as an ally in fight against terror, and no one expected such a despicable, treacherous stab in the back,” Putin added.
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12-10-2015 10:05 PM
DFF
Thread: Turkey Shoots Down Russian Military Plane Near Syrian Border

better at the game then you pathetic L-O-S-E-R
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Kisses. You are sooo fuggin' cute. Gootchie-goo.
 
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