Trying to get through to a war-supporting neolib

[lilymc]

I'm having a discussion on another forum with someone who is fully on board with all the wars, the US foreign policy, and all the post- 9/11 changes.

I said that I believe the "war on terror" is being used as a pretext for their true agenda, and that too many people have forgotten the warnings of our founders, on giving up liberty for some temporary security.

So now he's asking what liberties have been lost and how is the government violating the rights of regular American citizens.

What can I point him to, that lists all of the unconstitutional legislation that has been passed since 9/11? And specific violations that should concern anyone?

Help, please?

PS - if this is posted in the wrong forum, please move it. I wasn't sure where to post it. Thanks!

 

[lilymc]

Better yet, if some people here could just sign up on that forum, that would be SO great.

The only problem is, I think they disabled new sign-ups, because they were getting a humongous onslaught of spammers and they couldn't keep up with that.

 

[satchelmcqueen]

tell him to go fly on a plane. see how that hits him. tell him to go do a simple thing and just open a new bank account. see how long it takes him before he looses his shit. ask him to go film in front of a police station, then when confronted, tell him to talk his way out of it.

 

[William Tell]

What kind of liberties does a "neolib" care about? Is that a pro war Democrat?

 

[lilymc]

tell him to go fly on a plane. see how that hits him. tell him to go do a simple thing and just open a new bank account. see how long it takes him before he looses his shit. ask him to go film in front of a police station, then when confronted, tell him to talk his way out of it.

Thanks! I'm pretty he mentioned on a thread that he's OK with the extra security measures at airports. I don't know about the other things, but his overall position seems to be "if it prevents us from another 9/11, I'm fine with it."

What I would like to find is a list of specific things that have changed since 9/11 that are unconstitutional or intrusive.

There are too many people like him, who willingly accept all that stuff because they believe everything they've been told (sold) by the government/media.

 

[lilymc]

What kind of liberties does a "neolib" care about? Is that a pro war Democrat?

Yeah, he's a Democrat but he supports all the wars and our foreign policy because he's very pro Israel. (I think his family is from there).

I don't think he cares about things like the 2nd amendment (like a lot of liberals) and like a lot of people, since he hasn't personally experienced violations of his rights, he is sort of blind to the bigger picture.

 

[thoughtomator]

I have found that pointing out all the new common ground they have with Dick Cheney is plenty enough to stop your average neolib in his tracks for a few minutes while he puts his cognitive dissonance back.

 

[lilymc]

I have found that pointing out all the new common ground they have with Dick Cheney is plenty enough to stop your average neolib in his tracks for a few minutes while he puts his cognitive dissonance back.

Haha... Yeah, I should point that out more often.

What kind of liberties does a "neolib" care about? Is that a pro war Democrat?

Sorry, I didn't even answer your question! I guess the same "liberties" that other liberals care about... abortion, same-sex marriage, etc. He's basically a liberal but with the same foreign policy as a neocon.

 

[William Tell]

Sorry, I didn't even answer your question! I guess the same "liberties" that other liberals care about... abortion, same-sex marriage, etc. He's basically a liberal but with the same foreign policy as a neocon.

Wow, so there's nothing good at all about his views? That makes it tough.

 

[lilymc]

Wow, so there's nothing good at all about his views? That makes it tough.

LOL! Yeah. Anyway, it's hard to know where to begin with people who simply don't see what has been going on in the last few decades. It's like there's a blindness there.

 

[William Tell]

LOL! Yeah. Anyway, it's hard to know where to begin with people who simply don't see what has been going on in the last few decades. It's like there's a blindness there.

Unless you can think of a part of the bill of rights he actually cares about, I don't know what to say.

 

[jmdrake]

I'm having a discussion on another forum with someone who is fully on board with all the wars, the US foreign policy, and all the post- 9/11 changes.

I said that I believe the "war on terror" is being used as a pretext for their true agenda, and that too many people have forgotten the warnings of our founders, on giving up liberty for some temporary security.

So now he's asking what liberties have been lost and how is the government violating the rights of regular American citizens.

What can I point him to, that lists all of the unconstitutional legislation that has been passed since 9/11? And specific violations that should concern anyone?

Help, please?

PS - if this is posted in the wrong forum, please move it. I wasn't sure where to post it. Thanks!

How about the fact that people in Chicago are being held without charge in secret government facilities?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...-abuse-laden-black-site&p=5793954#post5793954

If this person is okay with that he/she is a lost cause.

 

[lilymc]

Unless you can think of a part of the bill of rights he actually cares about, I don't know what to say.

The 4th amendment is probably the one he would care about the most, but since he hasn't been affected personally, he's sort of oblivious to the trampling of it.

How about the fact that people in Chicago are being held without charge in secret government facilities?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...-abuse-laden-black-site&p=5793954#post5793954

If this person is okay with that he/she is a lost cause.

I'll check that out. Thanks! And I agree, that would show who is a lost cause.

 

[Bastiat's The Law]

Pick your battles.

 

[satchelmcqueen]

Thanks! I'm pretty he mentioned on a thread that he's OK with the extra security measures at airports. I don't know about the other things, but his overall position seems to be "if it prevents us from another 9/11, I'm fine with it."

What I would like to find is a list of specific things that have changed since 9/11 that are unconstitutional or intrusive.

There are too many people like him, who willingly accept all that stuff because they believe everything they've been told (sold) by the government/media.

maybe have him read sections of the patriot act that explains what "the bill itself" says is a terrorist. ask him if he thinks he himself or his innocent friends or family can be considered one after reading the points.

 

[lilymc]

Pick your battles.

I know. I really shouldn't even be debating right now. I've got so many things I should be doing, and forums can be a distraction. But I'm sort of in the middle of a discussion, so...

Like I said, I wish there were more liberty-minded people there, but I don't want to pressure you guys to join the forum. So I'll stop doing that.

 

[lilymc]

maybe have him read sections of the patriot act that explains what "the bill itself" says is a terrorist. ask him if he thinks he himself or his innocent friends or family can be considered one after reading the points.

Good idea. Thank you!

 

[William Tell]

Are those your kittens? I like the angle of the picture with the light. they are adorable by the way.

 

[lilymc]

Are those your kittens? I like the angle of the picture with the light. they are adorable by the way.

No... just a pic I found. I agree they're adorable. Here it is in a bigger size.

 

[Leaning Libertarian]

At least in 2013 Eric Holder claimed "Drone Strikes to kill American Citizens, On American Soil is hypotheically legal." This is to combat "Terrorists." The party currently in charge of the Executive Branch is the Democrats. They have frequently referred to other parties they politically disagree with, such as the Tea Party, as "terrorists."

This may seem fine to him, because he is not a member of the Tea Party. Neither am I for that matter. What if the people he politically disagrees with eventually comes to possess this power. Would he be comfortable under similar conditions? What if he were suddenly being referred to as a "terrorist" for his political stances. This is why "mob rule" just doesn't work. It may seem all fine and good when it doesn't effect "me," but at some point it ultimately will. There must be upmost care for individual liberties.