Trump threatens to withhold endorsement for Republicans who oppose his rescissions package

Lol - you started with assumptions without evidence for those assumptions. Are you building climate change models, too? I recognize the nested assumption methodology. :)

Also, I made a small edit that you may have missed, where I provided a concrete example of how your individual vote could impact someone's decision to tweet or not tweet about illegitimacy. Care to refute that?
 
If you want to challenge the assumptions then go ahead...
Oh man, this is becoming a homework assignment...

1) Voting sends a signal of consent for voting as a system
2 parties here - the sender and the receiver of the signal. People vote for all kinds of reasons. (strategic, oppositional, expressive, protest, hell, I've written in Mickey Mouse before...) And who is the receiver of the signal? Politicians? Other voters? Non-voters? Media? Can you measure those signals? These signals are going to be ambiguous depending on the individual context. I will concede that for the most part, voters expect that their preferences will be logged and accepted, and the winner will be designated accordingly, but I can also say that many people who vote do not trust the voting system, but they feel like they have no other option to express their preference.

2) Signals of consent shape the perception of a government's legitimacy
Lots of logical fallacies nested here. First, the voting system isn't the governing system. (God is love, Love is Blind, Ray Charles is blind, therefore, Ray Charles is God) Second, I've already demonstrated with actual evidence that governments don't need any turnout level to establish legitimacy - the two things are unrelated. Third, whose perception? Usually, the loser of the election is less satisfied with the legitimacy of the election than the winner. But that's just the election results - not the government. The legitimacy of the government's power appears wholly unrelated to the legitimacy of the election that decided who gets to wield that power.

3) Perception shapes reality
Whose perception? The media? The politicians? Who shapes those perceptions? Are they always tied to voting results?

4) Logical leaps about hypothetical individuals responding to ambiguous "signals" and are afraid to disobey unjust laws
Yeah, man, I'm sorry. There are nested assumptions all over the place with this.

I know you want to use logic, but you should be able to test this empirically. And if the empirical evidence is contradicting your thesis, you should really question your assumptions. You don't craft specific assumptions in an attempt to find evidence that could support your theories. This is why I likened it to the climate change narrative.
 
Oh man, this is becoming a homework assignment...

1) Voting sends a signal of consent for voting as a system
2 parties here - the sender and the receiver of the signal. People vote for all kinds of reasons. (strategic, oppositional, expressive, protest, hell, I've written in Mickey Mouse before...)

The reason doesn't change the signal. The lever that you pull to vote doesn't really care about your reason.

And who is the receiver of the signal? Politicians? Other voters? Non-voters? Media?

Everyone. Everyone who saw you vote, received a signal. Everyone you tell that you voted, receives a signal. Everyone that saw a voter turnout statistics, received a signal.

Can you measure those signals?

It can be measured about as well as "eating pizza sends a signal that you like pizza", can be measured. You can measure that by pizza sales. And you can measure voting signals by voter turnout.


These signals are going to be ambiguous depending on the individual context. I will concede that for the most part, voters expect that their preferences will be logged and accepted, and the winner will be designated accordingly, but I can also say that many people who vote do not trust the voting system, but they feel like they have no other option to express their preference.

Valid perspectives but when they vote it still sends a signal.

2) Signals of consent shape the perception of a government's legitimacy
Lots of logical fallacies nested here. First, the voting system isn't the governing system.

Last I checked, we presumably live in a democracy as a governing system, and a democracy is pretty much defined by voting.

Second, I've already demonstrated with actual evidence that governments don't need any turnout level to establish legitimacy - the two things are unrelated.

They don't need specific level of turnout levels but they do need some minimum level of perceived consent. Turnout levels is one way they get that perceived level of consent.

And as I said above, voting gives more signals than just turnout levels. When people see you vote, when you tell people you vote, each time it sends a signal.

Third, whose perception?

Everyone's.

The legitimacy of the government's power appears wholly unrelated to the legitimacy of the election that decided who gets to wield that power.

The illusion of legitimacy certainly relies on the perceived legitimacy of the elections.

Election boycotts have mixed results in effectiveness but the one thing that they are universally successful in is reducing the perceived legitimacy of the people in power.


3) Perception shapes reality
Whose perception? The media? The politicians? Who shapes those perceptions?

Again... everyone.

Are they always tied to voting results?

Lots of things impact perception. The results of an election can certainly impact perception, though that's not really part of any point I'm trying to make.

4) Logical leaps about hypothetical individuals responding to ambiguous "signals" and are afraid to disobey unjust laws
Yeah, man, I'm sorry. There are nested assumptions all over the place with this.

If you don't like my assumptions then refute my concrete example of how your vote might impact a person's decision to tweet, or not tweet, about a government's legitimacy.

And if the empirical evidence is contradicting your thesis

It's not though. The empirical evidence tells me, that when voter turnout is low, it's sometimes held up as evidence of a government's illegitimacy.

Empirical evidence tells me, that when voter turnout is high, it's sometimes held up as evidence of a government's legitimacy.

The fact that it is held up as evidence is enough to demonstrate the proof of my thesis: that voter turnout is used as a signal.
 
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It's not though. The empirical evidence tells me, that when voter turnout is low, it's sometimes held up as evidence of a government's illegitimacy.

Empirical evidence tells me, that when voter turnout is high, it's sometimes held up as evidence of a government's legitimacy.

The fact that it is held up as evidence is enough to demonstrate the proof of my thesis: that voter turnout is used as a signal.

Are you making an argument for or against voting?
 
The reason doesn't change the signal. The lever that you pull to vote doesn't really care about your reason.



Everyone. Everyone who saw you vote, received a signal. Everyone you tell that you voted, receives a signal. Everyone that saw a voter turnout statistics, received a signal.



It can be measured about as well as "eating pizza sends a signal that you like pizza", can be measured. You can measure that by pizza sales. And you can measure voting signals by voter turnout.




Valid perspectives but when they vote it still sends a signal.



Last I checked, we presumably live in a democracy as a governing system, and a democracy is pretty much defined by voting.



They don't need specific level of turnout levels but they do need some minimum level of perceived consent. Turnout levels is one way they get that perceived level of consent.

And as I said above, voting gives more signals than just turnout levels. When people see you vote, when you tell people you vote, each time it sends a signal.



Everyone's.



The illusion of legitimacy certainly relies on the perceived legitimacy of the elections.

Election boycotts have mixed results in effectiveness but the one thing that they are universally successful in is reducing the perceived legitimacy of the people in power.




Again... everyone.



Lots of things impact perception. The results of an election can certainly impact perception, though that's not really part of any point I'm trying to make.



If you don't like my assumptions then refute my concrete example of how your vote might impact a person's decision to tweet, or not tweet, about a government's legitimacy.



It's not though. The empirical evidence tells me, that when voter turnout is low, it's sometimes held up as evidence of a government's illegitimacy.

Empirical evidence tells me, that when voter turnout is high, it's sometimes held up as evidence of a government's legitimacy.

The fact that it is held up as evidence is enough to demonstrate the proof of my thesis: that voter turnout is used as a signal.

Just because people make statements about government legitimacy doesnt mean its an objective truth.

Most of the population didnt vote in the 1800 election that didnt make the government any more or any less legitimate.

If something wasnt true in 1800 its not true in 2025.

The only reason why people tell you not to vote is because politics is war by other means and its easier to win a war when the other side surrenders without fighting.

Some people say it sarcastically but other people convince you not to vote so they get to rule. If you live in a country where you dont get a vote then you live in a country where you dont get to rule.
 
Just because people make statements about government legitimacy doesnt mean its an objective truth.

It doesn't need to be an objective truth. Some frogs have bright colors to send a signal that they're poisonous. Are they actually poisonous? I dunno, but the signal is still there. And the signal has an effect on many animals.
 
It doesn't need to be an objective truth. Some frogs have bright colors to send a signal that they're poisonous. Are they actually poisonous? I dunno, but the signal is still there.

Believing something is true doesnt make it true.

I can believe that staring at the sun will heal my eyes but that doesnt make it true.
 
Believing something is true doesnt make it true.

I can believe that staring at the sun will heal my eyes but that doesnt make it true.

Correct.

But believing something is true, or can be true, is the first step in making it true.
 
If you were to focus the light into a laser, it would have the potential to heal your eyes, if used properly.
Lasik is a scam.

Many people are blind because they fell for the scam.

My Ophthalmologist warned me about scams.
 
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