Trump Made A Mistake By Overlooking Colorado

[erowe1]

Are you saying Ron Paul didn't have any delegates unseated, his delegates weren't locked out as well? Cause if you are, you have a short short memory of 2012.

What do you mean by "as well"? Are you trying to say that something unfair has happened to Trump that's similar to the tactics used against Ron Paul?

 

[jmdrake]

I wish you would discuss how you plan to deal with the establishment that is standing behind Cruz, but no, Trump must be stopped at all costs and I guess we'll just bend over and take it in 2020 like we have the last 3 elections.

Some of us are actually quite tired of seeing the establishment win every time, and we're exceptionally weary of you opening 5 new threads every day quoting some establishment buffoon on why Trump sucks and is an idiot.

There is no monolithic entity called "the establishment" and large factions of "the establishment" are not standing behind Cruz and many are standing behind Trump. That is unless people like Chris Christie has magically become no longer part of "the establishment" simply by virtue of throwing his weight (no pun intended) behind Trump. And how many threads is it okay to have spreading the misinformation that Trump lost Colorado because it was "stolen" from him when the truth is he didn't even show up to the game? And Ron Paul has already made it clear that Trump sucks but Trump is no idiot. He's a very smart dishonest used car salesman. In a twisted way I admire him for being able to fool so many people. As for dealing with "the establishment", the GOP is pretty much fucked regardless of what it does. Nominate Trump? They damn well will lose the election to Hillary Clinton and anyone but the most ardent Trump supporters knows this. A Trump candidacy also pretty much guarantees that third parties will get around 10% or more of the vote. The Libertarian Party could well get over the magic 5% number. I see some of the main people pushing Trump are hoping for that. If the GOP doesn't nominate Trump then Trump becomes the third party candidate and the Libertarian Party doesn't get shit. I understand the "logic" but I won't idly be a player in that.

 

[jmdrake]

Are you saying Ron Paul didn't have any delegates unseated, his delegates weren't locked out as well? Cause if you are, you have a short short memory of 2012.

Straw man argument. I'm saying Ron Paul's people actually showed up, played the game, and won delegates in states where he lost the popular vote. Trump didn't. Is that because the establishment liked Ron Paul better? If you believe that then you really are a lost cause. What it does mean is that Ron Paul actually had a ground game. Trump does not. Think of it from a football standpoint. You have a great quarterback but no running game. If that's the case ultimately you will lose. Sure there will be some bad calls by the refs and some cheating by the other team. That happens in football. But if you show up without decent running backs and strong offensive and defensive lines, that's your fault. That's what happened to Trump. Pointing to this bad call or that unfair tactic by the other team is just window dressing to the fact that you showed up without a running game.

 

[jmdrake]

I am not too bothered by Colorado and I didn't like Ron's strategy. It kinda made sense but not too much. I saw it as a way to continue to argue with republican rank and file. As far as stealing the election from republicans I didn't think it would happen because if that to happen people would just vote for another republican party and this one would become like LP.

Like it or not it was about all we had at the time. Get as many delegates in the state convention and go for a brokered convention.

As far as Colorado I am listening to Stefan talk about it now and it looks really bad. Like 24 people unanimously voting on rules that make it very hard for Trump to win Colorado. Kinda makes sense why he would skip it. Also how this was brought in after Ron Paul and Santorum did will in Colorado. So I guess it is easy who you are by the friend you keep. And how the people who wronged RP in the past are not aligned with Cruz temporarily makes it more clear.

Many of the people who wronged Ron Paul in the past lost their power in the convention process. In Kentucky a lot of the party leaders that "stole" delegates from Donald Trump actually support Rand Paul. I heard a pro Trump talk show host from Kentucky bitching and moaning about this just this past weekend.

(mod edit)

 

[SilentBull]

It's amazing how even Matt Drudge is completely blinded by Trump. To promote the idea that Cruz cheated because he's organizing to get delegates, which is what a campaign is supposed to do, is just mind boggling to me.

 

[erowe1]

It's amazing how even Matt Drudge is completely blinded by Trump. To promote the idea that Cruz cheated because he's organizing to get delegates, which is what a campaign is supposed to do, is just mind boggling to me.

That part isn't that amazing. Drudge feeds on sensationalism and controversy. Trump is like a gift from Heaven for him.

 

[silverhandorder]

There is a lot of misinformation about what happened in Colorado and anti trump trolls are further obfuscating the issue. Here is Stefan Molyneux breaking it down comprehensively about what happened.

 

[erowe1]

There is a lot of misinformation about what happened in Colorado and anti trump trolls are further obfuscating the issue. Here is Stefan Molyneux breaking it down comprehensively about what happened.

His opening statement was so factually inaccurate that I can't imagine there was anything worth listening to in the rest. Could you save me the time and reiterate any valid points you think he made?

 

[silverhandorder]

His opening state was so factually inaccurate that I can't imagine there was anything worth listening to in the rest. Could you save me the time and reiterate any valid points you think he made?

Re listening the opening. How far in were you?

1 minute in he states no voting took place to award delegates and compares the process to banana republic. Did you stop here? No facts were said yet.

0:52 to 2:00 Talks about an article and Trump hiring an aid to figure out what republicans want. Still no inaccuracies. Whats your definition of opening statement?

If you stopped listening in the first minute because cognitive dissonance is too painful well that is your problem.

 

[erowe1]

1 minute in he states no voting took place to award delegates and compares the process to banana republic. Did you stop here? No facts were said yet.

Yes. I heard that part. That is a claim about facts, and is blatantly false. If he believes that, he must be completely clueless about what happened.

What does he think the precinct caucuses on March 1 were? Does he even know they happened?

 

[silverhandorder]

Yes. I heard that part. That is a claim about facts, and is blatantly false. If he believes that, he must be completely clueless about what happened.

What does he think the precinct caucuses on March 1 were? Does he even know they happened?

So why don't you listen for his reasoning instead of turning off the feed? I am still listening to the video so this particular claim I am going to listen for it and post anything relevant.

 

[puppetmaster]

Hey it's Colorado. ...they won't remember who they are supposed to be delegates for when the time comes.

 

[erowe1]

So why don't you listen for his reasoning instead of turning off the feed?

I already answered that. Because his thesis statement was blatantly false. If he believes what you just quoted him saying, he is totally ignorant of the entire matter, and it would be a waste of anyone's time to listen to him pretend he knows what happened.

Like I said, if you think he made any valid points, feel free to share them. But the notion that the allocation of delegates isn't the result of how party members voted all across the state of Colorado in their precinct caucuses over a month ago is totally false.

 

[silverhandorder]

I already answered that. Because his thesis statement was blatantly false. If he believes what you just quoted him saying, he is totally ignorant of the entire matter, and it would be a waste of anyone's time to listen to him pretend he knows what happened.

Like I said, if you think he made any valid points, feel free to share them. But the notion that the allocation of delegates isn't the result of how party members voted all across the state of Colorado in their precinct caucuses over a month ago is totally false.

Well then what you are saying here is that you have made up your mind and will not look at new evidence. It seems that you like to live in a bubble and contrary opinion you stay away from.

So I re listened the first part. I have not finished the video yet. So here is a part that is relevant I think. 4 to 10 min. He talks about how delegates happen to be selected. That being that you can offer them bribes in the forms of trips and etc. You do a lot of hand shaking but no real voting is taking place. Kinda like how people voted for example in Iowa. They vote first to see who has more support and then distribute the delegates evenly. Ron Paul had to fight hard after Iowa to get his delegates seated. What they did is they decided to make the state winner take all and not have a general vote. That is exactly what Stefan said in the first minute.

edit:
Another member in another thread confirms what I said.

The CO delegation was elected by a very small minority of registered GOP members after changing the rules to enable that by the vote of only 14? GOP officials.

However, that still wasn't enough. Trump delegates were thrown out, ballot numbers were switched, and the bubble ballots they ended up handing out at the State convention included NUMEROUS problems - more than I know, the news stories keep including more. But they included missing quite a few delegates in a hundred block range - whole thing was cut off, and the part that remained deleted trump delegates being listed, listed Cruz delegates twice, and removed 7 Trump delegate names from 26.

There is no reason to live in a banana republic. You are simply against this stuff no matter who it occurs to.

 

[Mordan]

As far as Colorado I am listening to Stefan talk about it now and it looks really bad. Like 24 people unanimously voting on rules that make it very hard for Trump to win Colorado. Kinda makes sense why he would skip it.

You know that's what Cruz and the Establishment will do to Trump at the convention. They can vote a rule to unbind delegates on first ballot. They can actually do anything they want. I bet you Trump knows what happened to Ron Paul and he won't let go without a fight.

Conclusion. Those delegates rules are the root of corruption.. not even considering you can bribe delegates. Much more difficult to bribe voters in primaries. Same thing with super delegates for democrats.

Liberty needs to do away with party control of selecting a nominee. I believe France system of 2 rounds of voting is the best. First you vote for the best. Second round you vote for lesser of 2 evils.

 

[silverhandorder]

I think so too. I think he can either flex his muscle or just out maneuver them at their game. Probably a combination of two.

He can out maneuver them because right now he has more to offer to people who get swayed by power than the establishment.

edit: This is like the Fountainhead where they guy that ran the paper had to bow to the masses. Establishment is trying to bring him to heel.

 

[puppetmaster]

You know that's what Cruz and the Establishment will do to Trump at the convention. They can vote a rule to unbind delegates on first ballot. They can actually do anything they want. I bet you Trump knows what happened to Ron Paul and he won't let go without a fight.

Conclusion. Those delegates rules are the root of corruption.. not even considering you can bribe delegates. Much more difficult to bribe voters in primaries. Same thing with super delegates for democrats.

Liberty needs to do away with party control of selecting a nominee. I believe France system of 2 rounds of voting is the best. First you vote for the best. Second round you vote for lesser of 2 evils.

again the private election selection system is only a show. The sell it to the people using the best marketing system out there the MSM.

 

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

I think so too. I think he can either flex his muscle or just out maneuver them at their game. Probably a combination of two.

He can out maneuver them because right now he has more to offer to people who get swayed by power than the establishment.

edit: This is like the Fountainhead where they guy that ran the paper had to bow to the masses. Establishment is trying to bring him to heel.

Yep. I noticed the similarity to Ayn Rand novels too. People are against Trump for all the wrong reasons.

 

[MarcusI]

About the Molyneux video: It starts with some unfounded statements. When he starts to analyse it becomes a bit ridiculous: Colorado ofc did NOT choose to not have a preferential vote because of Trump announcing his candidacy. Back then in August 2015 he was still widely regarded as a joke candidate and the establishment wasn't worried about him at all. Anyways, the simple reason CO (like WY and ND) did prefer to not have a preferential vote was the change of rules the national GOP made to the process. Unlike in all races before, the national GOP changed the rules regarding delegate binding! And that was a reaction to Ron Paul's strategy. The new rule: All state GOPs have to bind delegates according to the respective preferential vote. Before March 15th that has to be done in a proportional manner, after it is allowed to be winner-take-all.

This new rule was clearly because of Ron Paul. Remember Lousiana and other states which held a preferential vote in 2012 and Ron got under 10% of the vote while later on he won majorities of the delegations! So there never was any national GOP rule that you cannot hold a beauty contest (regarding the preferential vote) like some states always did, in all the years. New national rule was clear: Delegates have to bound according to the preferential vote. Mandatory.

So what did some State GOPs with a tradition of beauty contests do? CO, WY and ND chose to not hold a vote at all. A move unexpected by the national GOP btw. So ofc they could not bind any delegates to a non-existing preferential vote and the process in the 3 states is simply caucus / convention, get your delegates from the counties or districts to the state convention and vote on delegates there.

Trump's Campaign thought they could skip that. CO, ND, WY. The next weeks will tell us how much of a blunder that has been. Maybe Trump will win big in NY + New England States + CA and he doesnt need them at all - and maybe he will only come short of a few delegates on the 1st ballot and he will lose because his campaign had no ground game at all in these 3 states. 94 delegates were at stake in the 3 states, as of now it seems Trump won only 1.

 

[MarcusI]

You know that's what Cruz and the Establishment will do to Trump at the convention. They can vote a rule to unbind delegates on first ballot. They can actually do anything they want. I bet you Trump knows what happened to Ron Paul and he won't let go without a fight.

Remember that in some states (~25% of all) delegates are chosen by the campaigns themselves and not by the state conventions. So Trump has some majorites with his own delegates for sure. If Trump and Cruz are smart, they can lock out any other candidate from getting nominated, as the two of them (probably, very likely) will have a majority in the rules committee which will come together a few days before the actual convention. Each state delegation sends two members to that one.