• Welcome to our new home!

    Please share any thoughts or issues here.


Trump indictment #2: classified documents @ Mar-a-Lago [US / federal]

He's not the president.

dogs-dog-tricks-small.gif
 
Speaking for myself, I don't give a damn about any of that.

I couldn't possibly care less - and neither could any of the people prosecuting him (or supporting his prosecution) for alleged violations of whatever rules and regulations he's accused of breaking [1]. Not a single damn one of them. Not really. If they did, they would have been (and still would be) complaining just as loudly about the many and various similar (or worse) indiscretions of Biden, Obama, Clinton (him and her), et al. But they haven't been (and they aren't) - because they're all full of $#@!, and they all know perfectly well that this is all just a farcically selective and one-sided put-on job. (Anyone who says otherwise is simply not to be taken seriously.)

Whether Trump is (technically or substantively) "guilty" or not is pretty much completely irrelevant to any of this. His ostensible "guilt" is entirely orthogonal to the actual motives and purpose of his indictment and prosecution.

IOW: "rule of law", my right ass cheek - and "no one is above the law", my left ass cheek.



[1] Which is why I am more than happy to leave it to others to squabble with and piss at each other pointlessly about the Presidential Records Act this, and the Constitution that, and the "declassification" other thing, and the blah-blah-blah, and the yada-yada-yada. None of that really has anything to do with the matter - it's all just gingham dressing for the windows in the false-front facade.

Have you changed your mind about the question of why Trump kept those documents after listening to Dave Smith's last podcast where he reads the transcript?

I promise you I did not know about that when I posted my question. I was just honestly wondering why he wasn't returning the documents. So now we know that apparently he was keeping them as proof that the defense dept was lying their asses off.
 
If I read this statement correctly (and I'm sure you'll tell me if I'm not), you're saying that it doesn't matter if Trump really did all of the things the indictment charges him with, because the DOJ had purely political motives in getting the indictment.

This assessment, in turn, seems to be based on the following assumptions: (a) the DOJ doesn't have sufficient evidence against Trump to get a conviction, (b) the DOJ did have sufficient evidence against the Clintons, Obama, and Biden but chose not to seek indictments, (c) what Trump is charged with is equally or less serious than what Clintons, Obama, and Biden did, and (d) the DOJ wouldn't go after someone else outside of politics in similar circumstances (and it's not that hard to envision such a scenario).

Suffice it to say I don't agree with these assumption, nor do I think the DOJ was unaware of the political backlash that would result from the indictment, with Trump supporters screaming about "weaponizing the DOJ" and "it's all politics!". It remains to be seen whether the indictment will hurt Trump politically, but it's hard to think the DOJ would have sought it unless it thought it had a strong case. But your views may differ.

If you're only looking at the facts in a vacuum then yeah, Trump looks guilty. But when you look at the ALL the facts, then the question of his guilt is more complicated. Clinton has committed worse crimes and wasn't punished. And Biden's crimes are orders of magnitude worse and nothing is happening to him. And the fact that Biden's justice department is trying to eliminate Biden's political competition makes it third world all the way.

Just to make sure you're not being hypocritical do you agree that the crimes Hillary and Biden committed are far worse than what Trump did?

I thought of an analogy. Suppose you're driving down the highway going 80 in a 70 zone. Cars all around you are going 100, swerving, running over and killing pedestrians. But then you get pulled over and get the only ticket, all the other cars are left alone. Technically you broke the law but obviously there's a bigger picture.
 
Last edited:
... Clinton has committed worse crimes ...

Not really the issue in this case. The real issue is whether POTUS is a puppet of the Federal bureaucracies, or not. Because the Deep State really is a soft-coup that is using the Federal bureaucracies as puppet-strings on the office of POTUS to ensure that WTP can never be rid of the Deep State even if we elect a populist wrecking-ball to clean house. That's how DEEP the Deep State really is. The puppet posing on television as Joe Biden is all you need to see to know that we are in Continuity-of-Government, which was all war-gamed by the Deep State in nuclear bunkers, acting out every one of their paranoid delusional fears of WTP.

Anyone who is that afraid of WTP ought to be....
 
Whether Trump is (technically or substantively) "guilty" or not is pretty much completely irrelevant to any of this. His ostensible "guilt" is entirely orthogonal to the actual motives and purpose of his indictment and prosecution.

If I read this statement correctly (and I'm sure you'll tell me if I'm not), you're saying that it doesn't matter if Trump really did all of the things the indictment charges him with, because the DOJ had purely political motives in getting the indictment.

No, that is not what I am saying.

Maybe Trump "really did all of the things the indictment charges" - or maybe he only "really did" some of them - or maybe he "really did" none of them at all. I don't know - and I haven't offered any answer for that particular question (because I don't have one to offer).

But if he "really did all [or even just some] of the things", then I am not "saying that it doesn't matter" - I am saying that that is not why the indictment is being pursued by Jack Smith and Biden's DOJ. Even if he is "guilty" of whichever of the charges (and even if this can be said to "matter" in whatever respect), his indictment on those charges is not being pursued in the interests of justice - it is being pursued in the interests of politics. That is why I said his "guilt" is orthogonal to the motives and purposes of his indictment and prosecution.

I see no reason to think that Jack Smith, et al. really care one damn bit that some fiddling rules, regulations, or bureaucratic protocols regarding archival and/or classified documents were (or might have been) abrogated. Such rules, regulations, and protocols are customs "more honoured in the breach than the observance", so to speak. They are broken all the time without indictments being issued (or even sought). Leaking such materials is de rigueur in Washington (as is storing them in one's sock drawer or private garage, apparently). Jack Smith & friends only care that Trump is the one they can presently accuse of breaking those rules, regulations, or protocols - and this is so regardless of whether Trump actually did (technically or substantively) break any of them.

This assessment, in turn, seems to be based on the following assumptions:

(a) the DOJ doesn't have sufficient evidence against Trump to get a conviction, [...]

My assessment does not imply or require any such assumption - see above (and below, regarding what is or is not "sufficient").

(b) the DOJ did have sufficient evidence against the Clintons, Obama, and Biden but chose not to seek indictments, [...]

This assumption is also neither implied nor required (though it would certainly reinforce my assessment if it actually is the case). It is neither difficult nor unreasonable to suspect that any lack of "sufficient" evidence might be due to a politically-motivated lack of diligence in seeking, finding, assessing, or evaluating such evidence. (Those famously easy-to-indict ham sandwiches are every bit as easy to avoid indicting, if that is what the investigators and prosecutors want.) IOW: It is entirely possible the DOJ didn't have "sufficient" evidence in any of those cases because it didn't want to have it. (And after all, why would they? Because of an intransigent devotion to seeking justice "blindly" and exposing the truth, no matter where it might lead? LOL plz)

(Also, I trust it isn't really necessary to point out why a similar lack of desire and diligence might not apply with respect to seeking, finding, assessing, or evaluating "sufficient" evidence against Trump - but I suppose that depends upon just how willfully obtuse one is prepared to be.)

(c) what Trump is charged with is equally or less serious than what Clintons, Obama, and Biden did, and [...]

Nothing I have said is contingent upon the assignment of any relative or comparative degrees of "seriousness" to any of the allegations regarding Trump or the Clintons, Obama, Biden, et al.

(d) the DOJ wouldn't go after someone else outside of politics in similar circumstances (and it's not that hard to envision such a scenario).

Quite regardless of how hard it might be to envision, I still have no idea what this hypothetical "someone else outside of politics" (or whether the DOJ would "go after" such an imaginary person) has to do with anything I've said.

In any case, whatever you think the relevance is, I was quite explicit in making no assumptions at all regarding what the DOJ might do with respect to such a figment. To quote my previous reply to you: "I have no idea what they would or wouldn't do in the case of some supposed 'person who wasn't a political figure' [... It] would depend entirely on the politics of the situation [...]". (I don't know how I could have been any clearer than that.)

I [do not] think the DOJ was unaware of the political backlash that would result from the indictment, with Trump supporters screaming about "weaponizing the DOJ" and "it's all politics!". It remains to be seen whether the indictment will hurt Trump politically, but it's hard to think the DOJ would have sought it unless it thought it had a strong case. But your views may differ.

I am sure they were perfectly well aware that such a "backlash" would occur.

They simply don't care - they're playing brazen hardball, and they aren't ball-shy.

If Obama or Biden conducted themselves in such a way as to expose themselves to the same allegations, I see no reason to think we would be discussing their indictments, because there is no particularly compelling reason to think there would even be any indictments to discuss in the first place. (At most, there might be some perfunctorily cursory "investigations" which would fail to find "sufficient" evidence of any indictment-worthy wrongdoing.)

And I think that would probably be true even with respect to a Republican administration's DOJ. That's certainly not because Republicans are noble and fair-minded devotees of the fairy tales told in grade-school civics-class textbooks. Unlike the Democrats, the Republicans just don't seem to have the balls to engage in much that is more bold or daring than the theatrical posturings of toothless (but occasionally illuminating) congressional "oversight".
 
Last edited:
Have you changed your mind about the question of why Trump kept those documents after listening to Dave Smith's last podcast where he reads the transcript?

I promise you I did not know about that when I posted my question. I was just honestly wondering why he wasn't returning the documents. So now we know that apparently he was keeping them as proof that the defense dept was lying their asses off.

I haven't "changed my mind" about that question, because I didn't have anything in my mind about it that could be changed.

I have no opinion at all concerning why he kept them, or why he has comported himself in the manner he has.

In fact, in and of himself, Trump really doesn't have much to do with anything I've said (or the opinions I've expressed) in this thread, apart from his being the Democrats' bête noire.
 
Last edited:
I am sure they were perfectly well aware that such a "backlash" would occur.

They simply don't care - they're playing brazen hardball, and they aren't ball-shy.

Or they do care, because to get people to go along with destroying a great nation by making it communist you have to break one hell of a lot of eggs.

Or, to put it another way, they want to inundate us with a flood of Biblical proportions, and Trump is the dam. So, a backlash is just what they're after.
 
Last edited:
But if he "really did all [or even just some] of the things", then I am not "saying that it doesn't matter" - I am saying that that is not why the indictment is being pursued by Jack Smith and Biden's DOJ. Even if he is "guilty" of whichever of the charges (and even if this can be said to "matter" in whatever respect), his indictment on those charges is not being pursued in the interests of justice - it is being pursued in the interests of politics...

Nothing I have said is contingent upon the assignment of any relative or comparative degrees of "seriousness" to any of the allegations regarding Trump...

If the interests of justice don't require that Trump be held accountable for the things charged in the indictment than it must be the case that those things aren't serious enough under the circumstances. One wonders what offenses (short of homicide) Trump or any other former President running for reelection (where the opposing party controls the White House) would have to allegedly do such that his indictment wouldn't be political.

Leaking such materials is de rigueur in Washington (as is storing them in one's sock drawer or private garage, apparently). Jack Smith & friends only care that Trump is the one they can presently accuse of breaking those rules, regulations, or protocols - and this is so regardless of whether Trump actually did (technically or substantively) break any of them.

Tapes of interviews with an historian are qualitatively different from highly classified documents. And as I have stated before, what Trump is alleged to have done after taking the documents (i.e., concealing, obstructing, and lying) is far more serious than simply taking them and failing for 9 months to return any of them.
 
Back
Top