true religious freedom

Theocrat, why are you so angry. I have said nothing to you, that should offend you, yet your sword is drawn as to do war. Put up you sword, do you not know that he that lives by the sword dies by the sword? I am not challenging you on your knowledge of God, I am challenging you on your wisdom and you display none! You display no mercy, no grace, no meekness, no humility, no temperance, no peace, no joy, no patience. The bible says you will know them by their fruits. Brother, your fruits are not showing! Be at peace!

Matthew 5
The Beatitudes
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him,
2and he began to teach them saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.

And I don't care if people follow me or not. I'm not looking for a following. I want them to follow Christ. I can't do anything to help them I have no authority or power to save them. It's not between them and me. Their life with Christ is between them and Christ. I'm not going to judge them. I'm not going to condemn them. I'm simply telling them the same thing I've said to you: all men have fallen short of the glory of God and we need to stop pointing the fingers at other people, because we need to clean up our own cups. Guess what, it's that simple. I don't have to get into an argument with anyone. They know the truth now, they've been told and now it's up to them to come freely to the waters of life. Yet you continue to try to prove some kinda point to me and them. I have no point, except to love them in Jesus' name and tell them the truth about myself and the word of God. I above all am most unworthy of the great gift of salvation. I was saved by grace. I will pass that message on, to all who will listen.

That is the message of Christ! And that is my message from the one I follow. It is an extremely powerful message of love, hope and life. And if men are willing it will set them free.

To Kade, thank you for your openness with me. I have hope in Christ, that I might reveal to you his undying love for you.
 
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Theocrat

From the King James Version:
2 Timothy 2:23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

And from the New International Version:
2 Timothy 2: 22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
 
Why can't we all just leave each other alone? Religious and non-religious! I don't want missionaries coming to me and trying to convince me to live their way and I won't go to your church and try to convince you to believe like I do. It is as simple as that, and a world where everyone has the same beliefs and thoughts is a very dangerous and boring world.

We can all state our opinions and believe anyway we want, but please respect everybody's right to believe the way that they want.
 
Bring It

I don't believe in gods, Theocrat. Or fairies... You really need to get that through your skull. You are either a nice person, or an asshole. Guess which one you are?

Exactly my point. When you can't argue a point or disagree with someone in a respectful manner, you resort to name-calling. I think I've proven to you many times on this thread that you do in fact believe in a God, but you suppress the truth about Him.

Whether or not you consider me a nice person or an asshole is irrelevant. As an "atheist," you have no absolute standard of morality to judge between the two, so all you have is just your arbitrary opinion. After all, molecules don't have the ability to make moral judgments, and yet that's pretty much what you reduce humans of being.

If you want to be destroyed in another religious thread, bring it. Seriously. I'm aching for one. As long as your moderately sane brethren don't join in to get me off topic...

You are deluded if you think you've ever "destroyed" me in any religious discussion. I'd be happy and privileged to have another discussion with you about God, the Bible, or anything else you want to debate on these forums with half my brain tied behind my back just to make it fair.

You have personally threatened me, bodily harm included. The imagine of you splashing around in the blood of the unbelievers is a reason why I am vehemently against your variant of the superstition. You don't seem to get it. I can't talk crap about something I don't consider in the realm of existence or valid. The concept of god is a non-concept. Jargon. Wishy wash insanity. Define it better, and I can crush it back to nothing. Define it out of bounds, and you are left with nothing more than what the deists already believe.

You are a liar, Kade. I have never threatened you with bodily harm, and if you go back and read the message I sent you about destroying "atheism," you will see plainly that I said my battle is against "atheism" as a philosphical system, not "atheists" who believe in it. The imagery of splashing its blood is only metaphorical in nature.

As far as God being a non-concept, you can claim that, but does your saying so make it so? I've given you the transcendental argument for the existence of God, and you still have not been able to refute it in any rational way. You've ridiculed it, dismissed it, but you have not dealt with it yet in a consistent manner. The charge I've brought before you is that your "atheism" presupposes my Christian theism, insofar as you have to assume and use the Christian theistic approach to logic, science, and morality in an attempt to debunk Christian theism. And when you do this, you expose yourself everytime that you do indeed believe in the God that I'm talking about.
 
Matthew 5:
7Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
9Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
 
The Intents of My Heart

Theocrat, why are you so angry. I have said nothing to you, that should offend you, yet your sword is drawn as to do war. Put up you sword, do you not know that he that lives by the sword dies by the sword? I am not challenging you on your knowledge of God, I am challenging you on your wisdom and you display none! You display no mercy, no grace, no meekness, no humility, no temperance, no peace, no joy, no patience. The bible says you will know them by their fruits. Brother, your fruits are not showing! Be at peace!

I'm not angry, and I do not seek to do battle against you. You are my sister-in-Christ. However, we as Christians are in a constant state of war when it comes to the battlefield of ideas, and there are only two sides in this battle--the Lord's side and the world's side (essentially, Satan's side). There is no neutrality (Matthew 12:30; Luke 11:23). This is why we're told in 2 Corinthians 10:4 that "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds." What are those weapons? God tells us what they are in Ephesians 6:13-18, and one of those weapons is in fact a sword, the Sword of the Spirit (God's word). That is the only sword I use when I discuss my faith.

There is a history between Kade and me on these forums that you know nothing about, hope7134. Yet, I respect him as a human made in God's image as well as a fellow Ron Paul supporter. For the caliber of insults, ridicule, and utter blaphemy that has come from Kade on the subject of our God, I think I've been very humble, patient, and gracious towards him. He has no problem exerting his "freedom of speech" to say things against God, but yet when I rebut him in disagreement, he charges me as being the malefactor, the bigot, the religious dictator. Whether I'm producing fruits or not is to be left up to the truth or falsity of my words in accordance with the Scriptures and not just the mere emotions of someone else who feels uncomfortable about what I have to say.

And I don't care if people follow me or not. I'm not looking for a following. I want them to follow Christ. I can't do anything to help them I have no authority or power to save them. It's not between them and me. Their life with Christ is between them and Christ. I'm not going to judge them. I'm not going to condemn them. I'm simply telling them the same thing I've said to you: all men have fallen short of the glory of God and we need to stop pointing the fingers at other people, because we need to clean up our own cups. Guess what, it's that simple. I don't have to get into an argument with anyone. They know the truth now, they've been told and now it's up to them to come freely to the waters of life. Yet you continue to try to prove some kinda point to me and them. I have no point, except to love them in Jesus' name and tell them the truth about myself and the word of God. I above all am most unworthy of the great gift of salvation. I was saved by grace. I will pass that message on, to all who will listen.

I don't seek a following, either. I seek truth, whether people agree with it or not. Our Savior had no problem engaging the hypocrites and religious leaders of His day who sought to teach the doctrines of men rather than the truth of God. I judge no man, except with the authority that God has given His people to judge. Yes, we all have "motes in our eyes" when we seek to take the "beam out of others'," but the point of that passage is to warn those who judge against giving hypocritical judgments, not righteous judgments. One of our jobs as Christians is to expose lies wherever they may be because God has blessed us with truth. It does not mean we should use aggressive means to change people's minds, but it does mean that we tackle their arguments in a rational yet loving way (I Corinthians 10:5). As long as unbelievers continue to speak against our God without knowledge, it will be my duty to share with them God's revelation of Himself, not because I think I'm better than they, but because of love for their souls.

To Kade, thank you for your openness with me. I have hope in Christ, that I might reveal to you his undying love for you.

Tell Kade what's going to happen to him if he dies not knowing Christ in the forgiveness of his sins, and then reconcile that with God's love for him.
 
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Neither Gods nor other supernatural entities and forces figure in scientific theories, although scientists themselves may hold various religious views. But there have been controversial attempts to introduce God into science, for example, creationism, or Intelligent Design Theory, rejected by most scientists as pseudo-science.
 
Some Christians scare me too! And I am one....

Hubby is agnostic. I have to tell him to stop lumping us all together. He blames the Christians for the neocon war support. I have to remind him not all of us fell for Bush's lies.

The problem is many Christians are not grounded in the Bible. They don't read. Like many of our representatives and proposed bills in government. Without reading the Bible, Christians can't discern. As soon as I saw Bush speaking about going to war, I saw the word LIAR in my mind. I tried to warn Christians but it was a lonely path. I was treated like garbage by other Christians. They'd accuse me of thinking I was better than others. LOL. Not at all. Better OFF for knowing the truth, yeah. But I'm better than no one.

I am a Christian because of my relationship with Jesus Christ. Not because of what others tell me or believe. I believe in the Bible and part ways with a lot of Christians on political issues. But it is not quite as lonely because many have woken up.
 
Theocrat, just a question, and this can be PM'd if you choose. How do you know that you are correct in your religious views?
 
Theocrat, just a question, and this can be PM'd if you choose. How do you know that you are correct in your religious views?

I'll answer this for you.

Because the bible says so.

...and I'll anticipate the next question.

How do you know that the bible is correct?

Because my religious views say so.


Circular%20Logic.jpg
 
Although I do not consider myself an Atheist, I am certainly an Atheist-leaning agnostic - if that makes sense. I find that there are a lot of misunderstandings about people who do not believe in God or are not sure if God exists, and I thought this article was interesting. I thought I would share it with all of you, whether agnostic, christian, believer, non-believer, athiest, secular humanist, whatever. I think it's a great article to promote understanding.

From 10 myths -- and 10 truths -- about atheism - Los Angeles Times

10 Myths & 10 Truths about Atheism

1) Atheists believe that life is meaningless.

On the contrary, religious people often worry that life is meaningless and imagine that it can only be redeemed by the promise of eternal happiness beyond the grave. Atheists tend to be quite sure that life is precious. Life is imbued with meaning by being really and fully lived. Our relationships with those we love are meaningful now; they need not last forever to be made so. Atheists tend to find this fear of meaninglessness … well … meaningless.

2) Atheism is responsible for the greatest crimes in human history.

People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

3) Atheism is dogmatic.

Jews, Christians and Muslims claim that their scriptures are so prescient of humanity's needs that they could only have been written under the direction of an omniscient deity. An atheist is simply a person who has considered this claim, read the books and found the claim to be ridiculous. One doesn't have to take anything on faith, or be otherwise dogmatic, to reject unjustified religious beliefs. As the historian Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71) once said: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

4) Atheists think everything in the universe arose by chance.

No one knows why the universe came into being. In fact, it is not entirely clear that we can coherently speak about the "beginning" or "creation" of the universe at all, as these ideas invoke the concept of time, and here we are talking about the origin of space-time itself.

The notion that atheists believe that everything was created by chance is also regularly thrown up as a criticism of Darwinian evolution. As Richard Dawkins explains in his marvelous book, "The God Delusion," this represents an utter misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. Although we don't know precisely how the Earth's early chemistry begat biology, we know that the diversity and complexity we see in the living world is not a product of mere chance. Evolution is a combination of chance mutation and natural selection. Darwin arrived at the phrase "natural selection" by analogy to the "artificial selection" performed by breeders of livestock. In both cases, selection exerts a highly non-random effect on the development of any species.

5) Atheism has no connection to science.

Although it is possible to be a scientist and still believe in God — as some scientists seem to manage it — there is no question that an engagement with scientific thinking tends to erode, rather than support, religious faith. Taking the U.S. population as an example: Most polls show that about 90% of the general public believes in a personal God; yet 93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not. This suggests that there are few modes of thinking less congenial to religious faith than science is.

6) Atheists are arrogant.

When scientists don't know something — like why the universe came into being or how the first self-replicating molecules formed — they admit it. Pretending to know things one doesn't know is a profound liability in science. And yet it is the life-blood of faith-based religion. One of the monumental ironies of religious discourse can be found in the frequency with which people of faith praise themselves for their humility, while claiming to know facts about cosmology, chemistry and biology that no scientist knows. When considering questions about the nature of the cosmos and our place within it, atheists tend to draw their opinions from science. This isn't arrogance; it is intellectual honesty.

7) Atheists are closed to spiritual experience.

There is nothing that prevents an atheist from experiencing love, ecstasy, rapture and awe; atheists can value these experiences and seek them regularly. What atheists don't tend to do is make unjustified (and unjustifiable) claims about the nature of reality on the basis of such experiences. There is no question that some Christians have transformed their lives for the better by reading the Bible and praying to Jesus. What does this prove? It proves that certain disciplines of attention and codes of conduct can have a profound effect upon the human mind. Do the positive experiences of Christians suggest that Jesus is the sole savior of humanity? Not even remotely — because Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and even atheists regularly have similar experiences.

There is, in fact, not a Christian on this Earth who can be certain that Jesus even wore a beard, much less that he was born of a virgin or rose from the dead. These are just not the sort of claims that spiritual experience can authenticate.

8) Atheists believe that there is nothing beyond human life and human understanding.

Atheists are free to admit the limits of human understanding in a way that religious people are not. It is obvious that we do not fully understand the universe; but it is even more obvious that neither the Bible nor the Koran reflects our best understanding of it. We do not know whether there is complex life elsewhere in the cosmos, but there might be. If there is, such beings could have developed an understanding of nature's laws that vastly exceeds our own. Atheists can freely entertain such possibilities. They also can admit that if brilliant extraterrestrials exist, the contents of the Bible and the Koran will be even less impressive to them than they are to human atheists.

From the atheist point of view, the world's religions utterly trivialize the real beauty and immensity of the universe. One doesn't have to accept anything on insufficient evidence to make such an observation.

9) Atheists ignore the fact that religion is extremely beneficial to society.

Those who emphasize the good effects of religion never seem to realize that such effects fail to demonstrate the truth of any religious doctrine. This is why we have terms such as "wishful thinking" and "self-deception." There is a profound distinction between a consoling delusion and the truth.

In any case, the good effects of religion can surely be disputed. In most cases, it seems that religion gives people bad reasons to behave well, when good reasons are actually available. Ask yourself, which is more moral, helping the poor out of concern for their suffering, or doing so because you think the creator of the universe wants you to do it, will reward you for doing it or will punish you for not doing it?

10) Atheism provides no basis for morality.

If a person doesn't already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won't discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran — as these books are bursting with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not get our morality from religion. We decide what is good in our good books by recourse to moral intuitions that are (at some level) hard-wired in us and that have been refined by thousands of years of thinking about the causes and possibilities of human happiness.

We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn't make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both books condone the practice of slavery — and yet every civilized human being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in scripture — like the golden rule — can be valued for its ethical wisdom without our believing that it was handed down to us by the creator of the universe.
 
acptulsa,
If you have a speck in your eye (sin), then I would gladly help you remove it, with the gentle, kindness, merciful, graciousness of my lord and savior. He came to save the world, not condemn it. Neither do I condemn you. I will not charge you with sin, that is Satan's job, because the bible says he is the convictor of the brothers. I will stand in the message of Christ, which says all men have sinned but there is a way out of it, which is Christ.

Just know that sin is the cause of all the pain, suffering, chaos, hurt, etc...in the world but the church should have been ministering there was a way out! But, we haven't. Instead, we have stood with Satan's bats in our hands, convicting all who we came in contact.

I am striving to remove the massive beam (of sin) in my own eye, that I might see clearily the Kingdom of God and his love toward mankind.

Just remember it is Satan who came to kill, steal and destroy, it is Christ who came that we might have life more abundantly.

We have all sinned and are suffering in this world right now, (with all the crap) because of that sin. Christ is the only way to have a world we all want of peace and safety.

But, that will never come as long as there are those who choose to destroy by word or deed. That destruction is what the true followers of Christ are rising up against now. "NO MORE" destruction!

Trust me, I was one who walked by my own sinfulness, carrying the banner of destruction high above my head. And because God so loved the world, he rebuked me for my error. It was a solid rebuke to say the least. It was truly a lesson I will never forget. But, the great thing is: he replaced it with something far better, the message of love and forgiveness.

This is the message, that helps all men see themselves for the skaleywags they are and helps them to see the need for greater than they ever had before. It is so sad, that because the religious world is so full of error, that the true message of Christ has not been able to see the light of day.

But, I believe that is now changing and thank God. We need reconciliation! We need restoration! We need help that only God can give.

Thank You acptulsa! I know I have rambled (as I so often do), but I hope that these words are a light, in all the darkness that is around us.
 
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The topic of Atheism V Theism in America is a distraction. I saw one atheist say lack of individuality? I laugh at such a remark, Christ was indeed the pinnacle of Individuality his message of taking the narrow path instead of the wide path is testament to that fact, just because a larger majority have lost their way does not mean that all have, they can be found.

I blame such an unfortunate occurrence in the un-informed evangelical pastors who have different plans than that of God, such as using their Charismatic talent to propagate hate toward someone's religious beliefs who are different from theirs. Those who own mega-churches and drive away in shiny new BMW's instead of giving most of it away and living a life of humility and gratitude. Their are many of these pastors out their who manipulate those people to be pro-war and pro-hate. I say manipulate because at least the word "influence" means you can "influence" someone to do the principled things instead of the preferential things, but the word manipulate just goes with bad.
 
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