Tom Woods: Since We’re Losing, We Need a New Strategy

This month's publication of The Austrian placed a Lew Rockwell speech from 2003 in it titled "The Path to Victory."
You can find that here: https://mises.org/library/path-victory-0


I think the proverbial war drums are beginning to rattle within our spheres. This year has brought the angry back out in some of us and escaping away does almost nothing. At least it didn't for me.
 
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This month's publication of The Austrian placed a Lew Rockwell speech from 2003 in it titled "The Path to Victory."
You can find that here: https://mises.org/library/path-victory-0
Sometimes Lew is brilliant, sometimes he is a moron. In that article he contradicts himself a few times.


The only way to change government policy is through the political process. Why? Because everything the government does is the result of politics. Ideas don't win on their own merits, there must be (political) muscle behind them. And he is absolutely wrong that this doesn't work, the progressives use it constantly and it has worked for them. Not to mention that those of who want less government have had success when these same tactics and strategies were properly deployed.


A book club, while fun, doesn't change government policy. Lew is living in his own ivory tower, and even Rothbard disagrees with him.
 
Sometimes Lew is brilliant, sometimes he is a moron. In that article he contradicts himself a few times.


The only way to change government policy is through the political process.

Define "political process". What does it mean?
 
Sometimes Lew is brilliant, sometimes he is a moron. In that article he contradicts himself a few times.


The only way to change government policy is through the political process. Why? Because everything the government does is the result of politics. Ideas don't win on their own merits, there must be (political) muscle behind them. And he is absolutely wrong that this doesn't work, the progressives use it constantly and it has worked for them. Not to mention that those of who want less government have had success when these same tactics and strategies were properly deployed.


A book club, while fun, doesn't change government policy. Lew is living in his own ivory tower, and even Rothbard disagrees with him.

Every state movement to decriminalize marijuana through ballot initiatives have worked. Those that depended on getting the right people elected have generally failed. That should tell you something if you are paying attention. Counting on politicians by definition requires compromise to be "successful."
 
Every state movement to decriminalize marijuana through ballot initiatives have worked. Those that depended on getting the right people elected have generally failed. That should tell you something if you are paying attention. Counting on politicians by definition requires compromise to be "successful."
No, the legalization effort failed the most effective path to victory because they did not employ proper strategies. Their issue has popular support which means the politicians would be inclined to vote for it. But they did not mobilize supporters to pressure the politicians. Referendums are very dangerous and are usually counter productive to any given cause. In this case it worked many places but is not a "best practices" strategy.
 
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No, the legalization effort failed the most effective path to victory because they did not employ proper strategies. Their issue has popular support which means the politicians would be inclined to vote for it. But they did not mobilize supporters to pressure the politicians. Referendums are very dangerous and are usually counter productive to any given cause.

The actual evidence is the opposite of what you believe in this case.

Edit: Back to the topic at hand. I didn't see you actually make a legitimate argument against what Lew wrote. Here's what he said about politicians.

CONVINCING THE POLITICIANS. Another type of problem stems from the belief that political organizing is the answer. But this can only lead to despondency, as effort after effort fails to yield fruit. Despite what you hear, the political class is not interested in ideas for their own sake. They are interested in subsidizing their friends, protecting their territory, and getting re-elected. Political ideology for them is, at best, a hobby. It is only useful insofar as it provides a cover for what they would do otherwise. I’m generalizing here, and yes, exceptions are possible. In fact, I can think of one in our century: Ron Paul.

Having been involved in this since 2007, what he said back in 2003 when he wrote that article seems quite correct. Yep, Ron Paul was the exception. But is seems the compromise we did to "convince the politicians" changed the movement more than it did the politicians. The height of the liberty movement is Donald Trump? Seriously? Rand Paul at one point floated red flag laws. Some people here are hoping Trump will become a military dictator. Yes there have been some small victories, but the despondency that Lew warned about is very real. And Lew wasn't advocating having a "book club." Quite the opposite. He said libertarians just talking to libertarians is a waste of time. Instead he talked about engaging the popular culture to actually build the movement. That's what progressives really do! Back when the global warming movement was still relatively unknown, I witnessed college students walking up to people on sidewalks to try to convince them of global warming. Look at how identity politics is pushed throughout the culture long before ANY laws are even attempted. In 2007/2008 the Ron Paul cultural phenomenon is what put him on the map. It's a shame that cultural phenomenon wasn't capitalized on.
 
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But is seems the compromise we did to "convince the politicians" changed the movement more than it did the politicians.
What compromise? There was no compromise.


The height of the liberty movement is Donald Trump?
Whoever said that is clueless.


Rand Paul at one point floated red flag laws.
Can you cite that, because I would like to see it.


Instead he talked about engaging the popular culture to actually build the movement. That's what progressives really do!
That's the multi-generational approach, but to win back liberty soon, you have to do the other strategy that the progressives do, and it is confrontational politics; putting pressure on the politicians.
 
What compromise? There was no compromise.


Whoever said that is clueless.


Can you cite that, because I would like to see it.

https://spectrumnews1.com/ky/lexing...y-s-congressional-delegation-on-red-flag-laws

Sergio Gor, a spokesperson for Sen. Rand Paul, pointed to comments Paul made earlier this week where Paul seemed open to red flag laws. "I'm not opposed to sort of an emergency order for 48 hours and then you get a hearing in a court where you get full due-process protections,” he told the Associated Press, a noticeable distinction from Massie. The two are libertarians who often agree on policy.

So yes. There has been compromise. Ron never would have given even lip service to the idea of "take your gun rights and get a due process hearing later." And if you haven't seen people say "I like Ron Paul but Trump is SOOO much better on (fill-in-the-blank)" then you haven't been reading all of the threads here. I'm not saying people who say that aren't clueless.

That's the multi-generational approach, but to win back liberty soon, you have to do the other strategy that the progressives do, and it is confrontational politics; putting pressure on the politicians.

It doesn't take generations to build a movement. It didn't take generations to build momentum for global warming. LGBTQ went from criminal to protected class very quickly. Hell, the Ron Paul movement grew up overnight. But it wasn't sustained because there was nothing to keep it going besides politics. There was a time we owned the internet. We could make any poll go our way. Now progressives rule TikTok. What happened?
 
https://spectrumnews1.com/ky/lexing...y-s-congressional-delegation-on-red-flag-laws

Sergio Gor, a spokesperson for Sen. Rand Paul, pointed to comments Paul made earlier this week where Paul seemed open to red flag laws. "I'm not opposed to sort of an emergency order for 48 hours and then you get a hearing in a court where you get full due-process protections,” he told the Associated Press, a noticeable distinction from Massie. The two are libertarians who often agree on policy.
Holy hell....



So yes. There has been compromise. Ron never would have given even lip service to the idea of "take your gun rights and get a due process hearing later." And if you haven't seen people say "I like Ron Paul but Trump is SOOO much better on (fill-in-the-blank)" then you haven't been reading all of the threads here. I'm not saying people who say that aren't clueless.
Geeze.... this is mind blowing. Rand is losing it. I didn't realize he said that.
 
If the game we're losing is one of changing government policy, then we're doomed to fail, and there is no realistic path to victory.

If we want victory, we need to seek it out in a way that accepts the reality of government policy being against us as an inviolable given. We need a strategy of finding freedom in an unfree world.
 
The most important difference between Rand and Ron is that Rand has significantly more influence on policy than Ron ever did.

And that power is what corrupts him. It cannot be wielded without corrupting the wielder. What protected Ron from that was that he never had the power to make a real difference in policy, so he was free to take principled stands that wouldn't actually affect outcomes.
 
Putting pressure on politicians to make them do what you want.

Start here:
https://nationalgunrights.org/about-us/strategy/


And end up here:
https://facl-training.org/schools

I got motivated to check my local Campaign For Liberty contacts (Kansas).

The website onboarding is outdated. Apparently, CFL has abandoned the electoral politics model and is more directed at legislative activism. In fact, the FACL training is going on in Wichita in January. I want to go, just don't want to drive 2.5 hours for something I feel could be online.

I spoke on the phone with Blake Branson for about 45 minutes. Aside from him , the major player in KS CFL is Jon Axtell. Above that is state liaison, above that national.

From what I got from him, there's only about 6 to 10 people who actually help with the organizing. It's all done by email, and not everyone agrees on which issues are important. Blake essentially stated that "issue splintering" (e.g. some people only care about gun rights) is the primary weakness of the "activism via political power" model.

From our talk, I also get the impression that most people don't do much and don't want to do much. Even if they did, there is no real "onboarding" unless you count FACL $40 conferences. Beyond that, you are blocked by your state coordinators leadership, time and task management skills (assuming he or she will trust you enough to let you into the inner circle of doing real work).

The candidate survey I think is something we could build on. There needs to be some kind of "public record" of not only how someone voted, but why they aren't being transparent. A fusion of journalism and legislative activism. Blake and Jon have had real success even with small numbers and little money. The old CFL strategy I never agreed with. The payoff for volunteers was practically non-existent and their onboarding tasks (I tried myself to complete just the first step) would take a regular person a weeks worth of week easily, and then they still wouldn't have anything to do.

The old website was better (there was a forum and we could talk with other activists at state and county level). They scrapped that. My guess is, CFL doesn't want "truthers" and all the other riff-raff giving bad optics. Instead of investing in moderating, they just muzzled the supporters.

I DO LIKE THE LOBBYIST MODEL. I don't think the vast majority of Ron Paul supporters understand what CFL is. The website doesn't help, because they've really abandoned campaign stuff for more direct legislative activism.

However....

We need to bridge the gap of people who are ostracized because of "bad optics" and give them something to do in order to support a model like CFL. The high-level activists who participate in the actual logistics and who need to go through this training are a minority inside our minority movement. We need those people online, knocking on doors, waving signs, and all the rest.

I saw over the years, the berating coming from people crying about bad optics and truthers and all the rest. Who cares. Ron is having strokes live on TV talking conspiracies and hasn't changed a bit. He's not berating and ostracizing, but there's been a lot of that coming from people hired with money he raised an email lists compiled in his name.

Even the tactics of "intimidation" described in your first link. Did the Paulites not do that? Did we not win online polls, fax and phone legislators, hold multiple money bombs?

If legislative activism is the path, and you have my vote for that path, then the question is strategy within that. Everyone cannot and will not do that. But they can be part of the movement that does and support in other ways.

I'm all for putting people to the test. You want to help? Here's where you sign up. Here's what you can do. Here's a meeting you can to once a week or once a month. Here's people near you.

The actual evidence is the opposite of what you believe in this case.

Edit: Back to the topic at hand. I didn't see you actually make a legitimate argument against what Lew wrote. Here's what he said about politicians.

CONVINCING THE POLITICIANS. Another type of problem stems from the belief that political organizing is the answer. But this can only lead to despondency, as effort after effort fails to yield fruit. Despite what you hear, the political class is not interested in ideas for their own sake. They are interested in subsidizing their friends, protecting their territory, and getting re-elected. Political ideology for them is, at best, a hobby. It is only useful insofar as it provides a cover for what they would do otherwise. I’m generalizing here, and yes, exceptions are possible. In fact, I can think of one in our century: Ron Paul.

Having been involved in this since 2007, what he said back in 2003 when he wrote that article seems quite correct. Yep, Ron Paul was the exception. But is seems the compromise we did to "convince the politicians" changed the movement more than it did the politicians. The height of the liberty movement is Donald Trump? Seriously? Rand Paul at one point floated red flag laws. Some people here are hoping Trump will become a military dictator. Yes there have been some small victories, but the despondency that Lew warned about is very real. And Lew wasn't advocating having a "book club." Quite the opposite. He said libertarians just talking to libertarians is a waste of time. Instead he talked about engaging the popular culture to actually build the movement. That's what progressives really do! Back when the global warming movement was still relatively unknown, I witnessed college students walking up to people on sidewalks to try to convince them of global warming. Look at how identity politics is pushed throughout the culture long before ANY laws are even attempted. In 2007/2008 the Ron Paul cultural phenomenon is what put him on the map. It's a shame that cultural phenomenon wasn't capitalized on.

Ultimately, in light of what I said above relating to over-emphasizing legislative activism strategy, I think you and Matt are the right and left leg of a movement arguing over whose fault it is we aren't walking anywhere.

If the movement is too lost in abstraction and idealism that it can't organize or do a roll call, it isn't a movement. A movement is people working together. That involves defining two things: people in the movement, and work.

Back in the days you speak of, I actually knew who people were. I saw them in face to face meetings. Now instead of a lot of online social networking exhibitionism, it's ONLY a lot of online social networking exhibitionism.

So where to start. We got me you and Matt talking. How do we keep this going?
 
WizardWatson - I sent you a private message on here with a link on how to do the FACL training online. It's an amazing resource and I highly recommend it.
 
The most important difference between Rand and Ron is that Rand has significantly more influence on policy than Ron ever did.

And that power is what corrupts him. It cannot be wielded without corrupting the wielder. What protected Ron from that was that he never had the power to make a real difference in policy, so he was free to take principled stands that wouldn't actually affect outcomes.
With most people, yes I would agree this would be true...

But I know Rand personally and in no way do I think he is "corrupt" but I think that he overthinks things sometimes, being an intellectual. He is also a bit more agreeable personality wise than Ron is. Meaning he wants to go along and get along a bit more. In other words he believes in possible tactical compromises (which is never a good thing) in order to achieve a larger objective. This is bad strategy. Most of the time he is on the straight and narrow, but every once in a while, like as JMD pointed above, he wanders out of bounds.
 
Hot damn, we have some great conversations going on here.

Sometimes Lew is brilliant, sometimes he is a moron. In that article he contradicts himself a few times.


The only way to change government policy is through the political process. Why? Because everything the government does is the result of politics. Ideas don't win on their own merits, there must be (political) muscle behind them. And he is absolutely wrong that this doesn't work, the progressives use it constantly and it has worked for them. Not to mention that those of who want less government have had success when these same tactics and strategies were properly deployed.


A book club, while fun, doesn't change government policy. Lew is living in his own ivory tower, and even Rothbard disagrees with him.

Yes, I agree from the perspective that I noticed Lew contradicted himself a bit in that speech. I had to go back as I was reading because I thought "wait, he just said not to do that."

I think this is where Tom Woods and some others are starting to come out of the woodworks after 2020. Some of us are realizing that turning away did us absolutely nothing. It's against our nature as libertarians to want to wield power. And that is exactly why we lose. We have to start changing this mindset, or at least start getting some libertarian leaders (those willing) to be in front for us ala Ron.

https://spectrumnews1.com/ky/lexing...y-s-congressional-delegation-on-red-flag-laws

Sergio Gor, a spokesperson for Sen. Rand Paul, pointed to comments Paul made earlier this week where Paul seemed open to red flag laws. "I'm not opposed to sort of an emergency order for 48 hours and then you get a hearing in a court where you get full due-process protections,” he told the Associated Press, a noticeable distinction from Massie. The two are libertarians who often agree on policy.

So yes. There has been compromise. Ron never would have given even lip service to the idea of "take your gun rights and get a due process hearing later." And if you haven't seen people say "I like Ron Paul but Trump is SOOO much better on (fill-in-the-blank)" then you haven't been reading all of the threads here. I'm not saying people who say that aren't clueless.



It doesn't take generations to build a movement. It didn't take generations to build momentum for global warming. LGBTQ went from criminal to protected class very quickly. Hell, the Ron Paul movement grew up overnight. But it wasn't sustained because there was nothing to keep it going besides politics. There was a time we owned the internet. We could make any poll go our way. Now progressives rule TikTok. What happened?

We all walked away disenfranchised. I read an article around election time from a conservative who was saying conservatives and libertarians basically hang it up and retreat to the mountains every time we lose. Instead, we need to be fighting and standing our ground. Otherwise, at some point the fight comes to the mountains anyway.

If the game we're losing is one of changing government policy, then we're doomed to fail, and there is no realistic path to victory.

If we want victory, we need to seek it out in a way that accepts the reality of government policy being against us as an inviolable given. We need a strategy of finding freedom in an unfree world.

Part of this, I believe, is happening. Agorism is on the rise, people are finding ways to be innovative and try to live around the state. The problem that I see happening is this won't last forever. The State apparatus WILL find ways to come in and crush these so called "rebellions" of thought and freedom.
At that point, what's next? Do we continue to run and change direction? What kind of life is that? I've been pondering that last question all year...

The most important difference between Rand and Ron is that Rand has significantly more influence on policy than Ron ever did.

And that power is what corrupts him. It cannot be wielded without corrupting the wielder. What protected Ron from that was that he never had the power to make a real difference in policy, so he was free to take principled stands that wouldn't actually affect outcomes.

There is a reason Ron Paul will forever be known as incorruptible. He was a once in a generation type of character. And when he retired, it's like all of us just hung it up an walked away. I think from 2013-2020 proves that even libertarians need "leaders." The more I think about it, the more I realize that it's a base human tendency that must be met.


Dave Smith wants to take over the Libertarian Party via the Mises Caucus. Is this something we should take more seriously? I don't know...
 
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Holy hell....

Geeze.... this is mind blowing. Rand is losing it. I didn't realize he said that.

There was a thread about it from just over a year ago: Rand Paul signals support for Red Flags
Paul, a strong gun-rights advocate, signaled his willingness to support something along the lines of "red flag" laws that allow guns to be removed from those who may be a danger to themselves and others.

"I'm not opposed to sort of an emergency order for 48 hours and then you get a hearing in a court where you get the full due-process protections," he said in the interview. "It's the one thing that could fix a lot of stuff. I think most of these homicidal attackers ... are sending off signals to their family and community."
 
Holy hell....




Geeze.... this is mind blowing. Rand is losing it. I didn't realize he said that.

And now you know....and knowing is half the battle....

Actually you already knew Rand said this, you just forgot. This was your reaction a year ago when you first found out.

Rand sold out on the right to keep and bear arms already a couple of years ago

Now why did you forget? It's something called "cognitive dissonance." It's difficult to keep to contradictory ideas in your head at the same time. In this case it's "Rand the champion of liberty" connected to "Rand making one of the most anti-liberty statements imaginable." And this is just one in a host of anti-liberty statements. (Note that unlike you I was cool with Rand's Civil Rights Act flip flop because his explanation of that one actually made sense.) And this brings me back to what Lew Rockwell actually said. It was not contradictory. There is the inherent risk of compromise when supporting political leaders that simply doesn't exist with other forms of resistance. Take your own situation. Yes we got you within 1 vote of being the chair of the Davidson county republican executive committee. But we had to settle for vice chair. For you compromise that you wouldn't accept was shaking hands with powerful republicans you didn't like and not publicly attacking them on the internet. Oh good and admirable until you got removed. Barry played the game, stayed on and managed to have some influence. That kind of compromise, "going along to get along" isn't bad. Rand's compromise is bad because it dilutes the message. I don't think he ever voted for anything bad (and I don't count signing on to the asinine Tom Cotton letter a vote, though it was possibly a violation of the Logan Act). But taking the public positions he has taken waters down the liberty message to the point that some people here see Trump as the epitome of liberty. Also Rand makes it difficult to attract and retain many supporters who otherwise supported Rand. You don't know how many times I've heard people say "I love Ron Paul but I just don't like or trust his son."

The most important difference between Rand and Ron is that Rand has significantly more influence on policy than Ron ever did.

And that power is what corrupts him. It cannot be wielded without corrupting the wielder. What protected Ron from that was that he never had the power to make a real difference in policy, so he was free to take principled stands that wouldn't actually affect outcomes.

Yes. The point of the Lord of the Rings is that you have to be wary of power because it can corrupt even the strongest. That's why Gandalf refused the ring and insisted Frodo take it. There were many "Ron / Gandalf" memes back in the day. Well Rand is more like Frodo.

With most people, yes I would agree this would be true...

But I know Rand personally and in no way do I think he is "corrupt" but I think that he overthinks things sometimes, being an intellectual. He is also a bit more agreeable personality wise than Ron is. Meaning he wants to go along and get along a bit more. In other words he believes in possible tactical compromises (which is never a good thing) in order to achieve a larger objective. This is bad strategy. Most of the time he is on the straight and narrow, but every once in a while, like as JMD pointed above, he wanders out of bounds.

Yeah. I met Rand three times myself and communicated with him through email. The first time was when I was one of the introduction speakers before Rand spoke at the opening of the Ron Paul Nashville headquarters in 2008. The news video coverage of that is still on YouTube I think. Yes Rand is a decent person. The problem isn't Rand. The problem is politics, especially representative politics. It's almost impossible to get anything done legislatively without compromise.

No, the legalization effort failed the most effective path to victory because they did not employ proper strategies. Their issue has popular support which means the politicians would be inclined to vote for it. But they did not mobilize supporters to pressure the politicians. Referendums are very dangerous and are usually counter productive to any given cause. In this case it worked many places but is not a "best practices" strategy.

Matt, I want to point out AGAIN that you make this statement almost as religious dogma WITH ZERO EVIDENCE OR LOGIC TO BACK UP YOUR POINT! You sound like left wingers who say "guns are dangerous and are usually counter productive to any given issue." It's just a false statement that you need to either back up with facts and logic or accept as false. The benefit of a referendum is that the people crafting the referendum can make it about what want it to be about. Laws passed by legislators are generally corrupt ab initio. Look at the machine gun ban under Ronald Reagan. There was some good in attacked to that bill that helped gun owners but enough poison that it should have been voted down.

Now to your point about "pressuring the politicians." That can be done WITHOUT BEING INVOLVED IN POLITICS. Agorists in Houston Texas got the TSA off the buses there (See 7 minutes in). These particular agorists don't even vote. What do they do most of the time? Why that "book club" stuff you disparaged earlier. You can't do a "mass mobilization of voters" on an issue like marijuana legalization by going to GOP meetings and hobnobbing with people that don't like you and/or what you stand for anyway. And the same "mass mobilization of voters" that could be used to pressure politicians could also be used to get the exact legislation you want to get passed in the legislature on a ballot referendum. Election politics are messy. Here in Tennessee we have Steve Dickerson. Good guy. I campaigned for him door to door. He's made attempts on the medical marijuana front. He won his latest re-election, but ended up looking bad doing it because a GOP campaign committee smeared his opponent, and smeared a well respected anti-violence group "Gideon's Army" in order to "help" Steve Dickerson.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/ne...endorsement-after-gideons-army-ad/3678748001/

Gideon's Army consistently does good work. They help stop gun violence, not by advocating taking away gun rights, but by intervening and diffusing potentially violent situations. What was the basis of the smear against them? Why they want to "defund the police." Apparently wanting to cut government spending is bad to some people. :rolleyes: Rand has in the past called for demilitarzation of the police, which is another way of saying "defund the police." Oh but timing is everything and in 2020 the right is all "blue lives matter."

Anyway, I'm still waiting for you or anyone else to point out the actual "contradictions" in the Lew Rockwell article. And I don't even like Lew.
 
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The actual evidence is the opposite of what you believe in this case.

Edit: Back to the topic at hand. I didn't see you actually make a legitimate argument against what Lew wrote. Here's what he said about politicians.

CONVINCING THE POLITICIANS. Another type of problem stems from the belief that political organizing is the answer. But this can only lead to despondency, as effort after effort fails to yield fruit. Despite what you hear, the political class is not interested in ideas for their own sake. They are interested in subsidizing their friends, protecting their territory, and getting re-elected. Political ideology for them is, at best, a hobby. It is only useful insofar as it provides a cover for what they would do otherwise. I’m generalizing here, and yes, exceptions are possible. In fact, I can think of one in our century: Ron Paul.

Having been involved in this since 2007, what he said back in 2003 when he wrote that article seems quite correct. Yep, Ron Paul was the exception. But is seems the compromise we did to "convince the politicians" changed the movement more than it did the politicians. The height of the liberty movement is Donald Trump? Seriously? Rand Paul at one point floated red flag laws. Some people here are hoping Trump will become a military dictator. Yes there have been some small victories, but the despondency that Lew warned about is very real. And Lew wasn't advocating having a "book club." Quite the opposite. He said libertarians just talking to libertarians is a waste of time. Instead he talked about engaging the popular culture to actually build the movement. That's what progressives really do! Back when the global warming movement was still relatively unknown, I witnessed college students walking up to people on sidewalks to try to convince them of global warming. Look at how identity politics is pushed throughout the culture long before ANY laws are even attempted. In 2007/2008 the Ron Paul cultural phenomenon is what put him on the map. It's a shame that cultural phenomenon wasn't capitalized on.

Absolutely!!! 1000% agree!!!

And I'd +rep you, if I could!
 
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