To settle this once and for all, Ron Paul on Gay Marriage...

The defination of marriage is MAN and WOMAN period! If the gays want to call it civil union, hunky dorry or wtf ever that's fine with me, but don't call it MARRIAGE!

Sure I respect your right to not call it marriage, in fact, I personally support that definition. I also respect the right of those who wish to call it marriage, to do so. That is why we shouldn't be fighting over which definition the state will force people to accept.

Do we fight over how government should define dating? Or a friend? Or what definition of baptism the government should institute as law? Shall we have endless, caustic, public debate between Baptists and Catholics over sprinkling vs. immersion? No. We should stand united and say the government should not define dating, friendship, baptism, or marriage. It's absurd to think they can do so.

Do not try to get your idea of the right definition passed. Try to get the government out of the business.
 
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Asking for equal rights for gays is not forcing anything down anyone's throats. There is no cause for someone to ask for a law to prevent other people from doing something that does no harm to them.

Gays should have equal rights, in that government should not define marriage for anyone. Everyone should be free to have whatever ceremony they wish, and call it whatever they will.

If, by "asking for equal rights", you mean codifying gay marriage as law, then I disagree. It does step on the rights of others, who wish to use a different definition of marriage.

As I say, the only right thing to do is to fight for liberty for all, not to try to win the battle for your side on the field of politics. We need to grab the ball and take it away from them.

Even if you "win", and have your ideas codified as law, then the state's power over the issue has been strengthened. Then, when the tides of public opinion turn (as they have in CA), which they often do, you will find that that power is used to suppress your rights.

The gay lobby in CA, and the social conservatives, and all others who care to protect their rights, should fight to remove the power over marriage from the state. That way, no matter which way public opinion turns, gays will have equal rights, social conservatives will not have a non-traditional definition of marriage forced upon them, and we all will have begun to push the state out of our personal lives.

Anything less is an implicit acceptance of the state's control over the issue, and is ultimately damaging, not productive.
 
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Gays should have equal rights, in that government should not define marriage for anyone. Everyone should be free to have whatever ceremony they wish, and call it whatever they will.

If, by "asking for equal rights", you mean codifying gay marriage as law, then I disagree. It does step on the rights of others, who wish to use a different definition of marriage.

As I say, the only right thing to do is to fight for liberty for all, not to try to win the battle for your side on the field of politics. We need to grab the ball and take it away from them.

Even if you "win", and have your ideas codified as law, then the state's power over the issue has been strengthened. Then, when the tides of public opinion turn (as they have in CA), which they often do, you will find that that power is used to suppress your rights.

The gay lobby in CA, and the social conservatives, and all others who care to protect their rights, should fight to remove the power over marriage from the state. That way, no matter which way public opinion turns, gays will have equal rights, social conservatives will not have a non-traditional definition of marriage forced upon them, and we all will have begun to push the state out of our personal lives.

Anything less is an implicit acceptance of the state's control over the issue, and is ultimately damaging, not productive.

I have no problem with any of this.
 
Marriage is, simply put, a contract. That's it. States shouldn't even be in the business of granting them, they should be strictly in the business of protecting them. Saying that two (or more :P) consenting adults can't enter into a contract together is, well, retarded.
 
gays should have equal rights, in that government should not define marriage for anyone. Everyone should be free to have whatever ceremony they wish, and call it whatever they will.

If, by "asking for equal rights", you mean codifying gay marriage as law, then i disagree. It does step on the rights of others, who wish to use a different definition of marriage.

As i say, the only right thing to do is to fight for liberty for all, not to try to win the battle for your side on the field of politics. We need to grab the ball and take it away from them.

Even if you "win", and have your ideas codified as law, then the state's power over the issue has been strengthened. Then, when the tides of public opinion turn (as they have in ca), which they often do, you will find that that power is used to suppress your rights.

The gay lobby in ca, and the social conservatives, and all others who care to protect their rights, should fight to remove the power over marriage from the state. That way, no matter which way public opinion turns, gays will have equal rights, social conservatives will not have a non-traditional definition of marriage forced upon them, and we all will have begun to push the state out of our personal lives.

Anything less is an implicit acceptance of the state's control over the issue, and is ultimately damaging, not productive.

+1000
 
Gays should have equal rights, in that government should not define marriage for anyone. Everyone should be free to have whatever ceremony they wish, and call it whatever they will.

If, by "asking for equal rights", you mean codifying gay marriage as law, then I disagree. It does step on the rights of others, who wish to use a different definition of marriage.

As I say, the only right thing to do is to fight for liberty for all, not to try to win the battle for your side on the field of politics. We need to grab the ball and take it away from them.

Even if you "win", and have your ideas codified as law, then the state's power over the issue has been strengthened. Then, when the tides of public opinion turn (as they have in CA), which they often do, you will find that that power is used to suppress your rights.

The gay lobby in CA, and the social conservatives, and all others who care to protect their rights, should fight to remove the power over marriage from the state. That way, no matter which way public opinion turns, gays will have equal rights, social conservatives will not have a non-traditional definition of marriage forced upon them, and we all will have begun to push the state out of our personal lives.

Anything less is an implicit acceptance of the state's control over the issue, and is ultimately damaging, not productive.

Cheers,bravo,and well said!
 
Gays should have equal rights, in that government should not define marriage for anyone. Everyone should be free to have whatever ceremony they wish, and call it whatever they will.

If, by "asking for equal rights", you mean codifying gay marriage as law, then I disagree. It does step on the rights of others, who wish to use a different definition of marriage.

As I say, the only right thing to do is to fight for liberty for all, not to try to win the battle for your side on the field of politics. We need to grab the ball and take it away from them.

Even if you "win", and have your ideas codified as law, then the state's power over the issue has been strengthened. Then, when the tides of public opinion turn (as they have in CA), which they often do, you will find that that power is used to suppress your rights.

The gay lobby in CA, and the social conservatives, and all others who care to protect their rights, should fight to remove the power over marriage from the state. That way, no matter which way public opinion turns, gays will have equal rights, social conservatives will not have a non-traditional definition of marriage forced upon them, and we all will have begun to push the state out of our personal lives.

Anything less is an implicit acceptance of the state's control over the issue, and is ultimately damaging, not productive.

Right on.

By the way it wasn't the Christian right that passed Prop 8. It was a solid, by 60% democratic electorate that voted. Like I said before I voted against because I think we have to start somewhere, though I fear the courts are going to force the businesses in california to pay for all benefits to gay employees in the end.
 
If the majority of the anti-gay marriage movement was comprised of people who just feel we should not have government legislated marriage, I would be a lot more comfortable with it. That's not what we have. We have religous zealots who are willing to use the power of the state to prevent other people from doing something they themselves don't approve of. They simply cannot stand that such a "sin" is taking place, even if they never see it, hear it, or even smell it. Even if it is going on in the privacy of the homes of consenting adults. They just can't stand that someone out there might not be living to their standards. So it should be illegal.

Not to mention the backwards absurdity that somehow allowing Gay Marriage is going to "increase homosexual behavior". The only thing it will increase is that people who are homosexual will be less afraid to show it. They delude themselves into believing that homosexuals are just a few people who for some reason have decided to be attracted to someone of the same sex. As if that was even possible. The only decisions people have ever made in this regard is the decision to pretend that they are not because they don't want to get beaten up for it. Or run out of their neighborhoods. It's easier to terrorize these people into pretending that they are "normal" then it is to accept that some people chemically are attracted to people of the same gender. We as a society have worked very hard on coercing conformity from these people, and damn it, we simply cannot allow them to be themselves, because it mean being "normal" is not as important anymore! I am not Gay, I could never decide to be Gay, anymore then someone who is Gay could suddenly decide not to feel a chemical attraction to someone of the same gender they happened to like. They only thing a Gay person can DECIDE to do is to LIE and PRETEND not to be so that some pathetic people insecure in their own sexuality can feel better when they go to bed at night, knowing that they scored one against those damned sinners! Those people make me uncomfortable, so I will SHAME them and TERRIFY them into pretending to be like me! Please explain to me how this bullshit is in any way compatible with the freedom movement?

Well, people who think we should still be executing homosexuals make me feel uncomfortable. And if I ever witness someone committing a bigoted crime like that, I hope they are wearing a bullet proof vest.

People dream up crazy conspiracy theories about what they think the gays will do if they are allowed to marry. The stories about how gays are just going to start burning down churches and all that are outright madness.

However, nobody thinks about what the more extreme of the Christian Right would do with the power of a precedent that gives their religion control over legal definitions of any kind. Or choosing what is illegal and what is not. I have studied various Theocracies, every one of them has amounted to evil.
 
If they are allowed to marry..for the 5th time, they will demand ministers perform ceremonies which are against the Bible. If the ministers balk, they will start lawsuits and try to close down churches. THAT is what this is all about. We're not stupid. I will fight it until I leave the planet. This is the only issue you harp on...something is going on...you have some sort of vested interest in this..I hope you aren't running for office..if so..where so I can alert people. TONES!
 
"Traditional" marriage, in the majority of human history, is polygamy.

Those who are obsessed with the issue "doth protest too much...methinks".

It's just another red herring. Feel free to debate endlessly.
 
If the majority of the anti-gay marriage movement was comprised of people who just feel we should not have government legislated marriage, I would be a lot more comfortable with it ...

Of course the prop 8 effort was not comprised of people who are against government legislated marriage, it was comprised of people who want their own personal views codified as law. Likewise, most of the gay lobby is comprised of people who want their own personal views codified as law. I disagree with both, and as I say, I abstained on prop 8, which I think was the only right way to go.

I agree that gays have a right to equal treatment under the law, and the law has no business making distinctions about personal morality.

You must also recognize, though, the rights of those who oppose gay marriage. Marriage has been around for thousands of years. This is not about a desire to outlaw a behavior, this is about opposition to the redefinition of what marriage is.

Say, for example, that the government somehow got control over the definition of "celibate" -- I'll use this as an example, because I think it is illustrative, not because I think it is analogous in every way to the gay marriage issue. They regulated it, licensed it, and otherwise screwed around in what was no business of theirs. They keep a rather traditional definition, however -- a "celibate" person is one who does not have sex. Years pass, to the point where the public recognizes a "celibate" person as one who has been deemed so by the state.

Also, suppose the state institutes certain special privileges for those who are deemed "celibate".

Now suppose, for whatever reason, perhaps in an effort combat STDs, the state redefines "celibate" to mean, "one who does not have unprotected sex".

Can you see how this would cause an outcry? Monks, nuns, and priests who have centuries long traditions of "celibacy", as well as those who have vowed to be "celebate" until marriage, and others, would view this as a direct attack against them and their traditions.

It is completely understandable to me that gays are offended that they are not treated equally, and given equal rights. It is also completely understandable to me that those with a traditional definition of marriage are offended by the state's efforts to change it.

Gays must recognize and appreciate the rights of those for whom marriage is a millenia long oral and written, religious and moral tradition, and who do not wish to see the definition changed. Those who ascribe to a traditional definition of marriage need to recognize and appreciate the rights of gays to equal treatment under the law, and equal rights.

The only way everyone's rights can be protected is to stop fighting against each other, and recognize that the real culprit is out of control government power.
 
If they are allowed to marry..for the 5th time, they will demand ministers perform ceremonies which are against the Bible. If the ministers balk, they will start lawsuits and try to close down churches. THAT is what this is all about. We're not stupid. I will fight it until I leave the planet. This is the only issue you harp on...something is going on...you have some sort of vested interest in this..I hope you aren't running for office..if so..where so I can alert people. TONES!

It is a dangerous thing to ascribe motives to people we don't understand out of our own fears and imagination.

Are you secretly trying to take over the world and force everyone by law to be christian and pray three times a day and read the bible and live exactly the way you say? No?

I guarantee you there are those in the gay lobby who think you are, because they are ascribing motives to you out of their own fears and imagination.

Perhaps you should not do the same.
 
Can't we just all agree that gays can build their own churches and get married at their own free will and that the government has nothing to do with it?

We don't need to write huge articles to recognize this.

Get the state out of marriage, that's it.
 
If they are allowed to marry..for the 5th time, they will demand ministers perform ceremonies which are against the Bible. If the ministers balk, they will start lawsuits and try to close down churches. THAT is what this is all about. We're not stupid. I will fight it until I leave the planet. This is the only issue you harp on...something is going on...you have some sort of vested interest in this..I hope you aren't running for office..if so..where so I can alert people. TONES!

Yes, something is going on. In some places there are wackjobs who protest at the funerals of dead soldiers because they say it is punishment for our tolerance of homosexuals.

And you ASSUME they will demand ministers perform these ceremonies. Do you you have any evidence of your grand conspiracy on the part of homosexuals?

And hey, should I run for office again I would be very thankful for you spreading the word that I hate bigotry and hatred.
 
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