To Anarchists: How does anarchy work.

Because they have the guns. Group A IS the government today, right now, in front of your eyes. If your theory is correct, people everywhere are boycotting the US right now and not paying the IRS, right?

My theory hasn't been implemented. People can't currently choose which government organizations receive their taxes. I'm advocating a system that would allow people to boycott individual government organizations. They still wouldn't be able to boycott the entire government. Well...unless everybody boycotted the government organizations responsible for tax enforcement.

Again...if people could choose which government organizations received their taxes...why wouldn't they boycott the government organizations that threaten them with the use of force?
 
Xerographics, what if I just think my taxes are way too high and I prefer to pay no tax at all? How does your sysyem work then?
 
how do you intend to prevent this?

The same way a mall would prevent it. Or a casino in Las Vegas, etc. Voluntarily funded defense services.

these voluntary associations you speak of will probably have to resort to violence.

Defensive violence is ok.

There's a word for such groups of people. you might have heard it before. that word is "government"

Call it whatever you want, but there is a huge difference. One group acquires its income through violence and asserts a coerced monopoly over a certain territorial area [1]

The other group claims no such arbitrary territorial monopoly and funds itself without violence.
 
Most of the AnCaps here are not Anarchists...but Voluntarists. We oppose tax based Statism - we're all for voluntary forms of government funding.
 
For anarchy to work the way anarchists wish it would, you would have to fundamentally change human nature and society. That is because anarchy inherently leads to government.

The irony is that we are in anarchy, and the majority has chosen to use force and call it government. Within anarchy, where there is no government and no centralized power, force is privatized and individual. Anarchists reason that unjust force will be treated in return with repercussions by society freely. Except that is not what happens, because if that is how it happened we would not have government today. We are in anarchy, and it leads to collective force called government.

I considered myself an anarchists, until this thought experiment was presented to me and I realized that it wasn't a thought experiment, its society today. This is anarchy, except that the majority chose to have a government and the minority doesn't have the ability to say otherwise.

If so called "anarchists" want their ideal totally free society with no government to exist, they need to change society first.
 
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I think there should be some minimal government. But if the option is what we have or anarchy, I'd take anarchy.

In anarchy, I would assume its basically capitalism without the government involvement. There would be some chaos, but the market would eventually fill the role of most of the government functions. That is as long as some group doesn't take over the country and force their government on us.

Nah.. It will start with the local area when some tough shmucks start running low on babes, booze, bullets or buzz and get a bunch of reprobates to start kicking in doors and taking what they want. Then it will progress into a feudal government with warring gangs which eventually will make boundaries that cannot be crossed without violence and death and we are back in the whole kit and kaboodle again. Better to take the furniture grandpa and grandma placed around the joint and dust it off and refurbish it for modern living.

Rev9
 
Yes. So long as an organization uses force to fund itself, or to gain compliance, it is part of the 'rape'. You can spray your perfume on before you rape people, but you still advocate their rape.

And you spray fake reality on your illusion and pretend it can actually exist for more than fleeting moments between meals.

Rev9
 
Sam I Am,

Are you a two year old?

Are you a 14 year old headbanger pissed at mommy and school? He is obviously trying to get you to explain it and all you got is lame soundbytes and then back down with this crap. You are not the intellectual giant you think you are or you would defend your position..which is an illusion which is why you cannot defend it. It is a counterfeit of true liberty and incapable of sustaining itself in this reality.

Rev9
 
@Wesker1982

I`m flirting with anarchist ideas though I have some doubts. One worry I have is that an anarchist type society might have problems defending itself from outside statist organizations. Throughout history anarchist movements were defeated by outside forces eg Anarchist free territory in Ukraine, Anarchist Spanish revolution and similar asian experiments.

Do you think it would have been any different if this same society was statist? Would they have been able to repel the Red Army?

Apples and Oranges

This theoretical discussion is sure to provoke the cynic to remark, “I’d like to see what your insurance companies would do if they met a Panzer division." But such a question misses the point. We have demonstrated that a private defense system is the most effective, not that it is invulnerable. Yes, a small society of anarchists would be unable to repel the total might of Nazi Germany. But a small society of statists would fare even worse—and in fact, plenty of government militaries were obliterated by Hitler’s armies.
 
/sigh

I understand not how the most basic of concepts escapes your ability to comprehend. I am sorry that I cannot use a crayon to draw this out for you, but perhaps if I speak very slowly you will understand.

Group A sticks a gun in my face and demands that my property be handed over to them upon the threat of violent force.

Group A then goes and distributes this property to Groups B, C, D, E, F and G.

or;

Group A then asks me which of Groups B, C, D, E, F or G I would like my stolen property to go to.


In neither scenario does the violence of Group As initial act become magically altered to be anything other than the violence it is. I care not for your justifications for such a system of institutional violence.

This specific case dogma falls flat on its face in reality. Group Z from somewhere else just kills you and takes it if it wasn't for group E or you would be dead.

Rev9
 
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Oh noes! Another minarchist who has never read a single thing about anarchy has come along and single-handedly destroyed the entire theory! Whatever will we do?

Whine and wallow in your illusions and counterfeit realities.

Rev9
 
In your example are we assuming that the Nazis didn't fund their exploits with stolen property?

If you read the quote from Hitler that I shared...you'll notice that he uses the word "balance". Most people want balance in their lives so we can assume...or I assume...that enough taxpayers would have allocated their taxes to some form of property protection. So the Nazis probably wouldn't have been able to steal a significant amount of property.
 
Nah.. It will start with the local area when some tough shmucks start running low on babes, booze, bullets or buzz and get a bunch of reprobates to start kicking in doors and taking what they want. Then it will progress into a feudal government with warring gangs which eventually will make boundaries that cannot be crossed without violence and death and we are back in the whole kit and kaboodle again. Better to take the furniture grandpa and grandma placed around the joint and dust it off and refurbish it for modern living.

Rev9

I agree somewhat. That`s why Napoleon said freedom works with certain kind of people.

I think an anarchist society would have to be homogeneous in order to work. It could work with such selective group, with say individuals who strongly believe in the non-aggression principle. I suggest Orwell`s book "Homage to Catalonia" about his experience in the Spanish civil war where he joined the anarchist revolution. That was an interesting experiment of how people could get along and work effectively without a hierarchy.

Free territory of Ukraine was also an interesting experiment that lasted few years at the beginning of 20th century.

However, both of these were cut short by outside forces. Humanity never had an anarchist system left alone to fully develop.
 
The same way a mall would prevent it. Or a casino in Las Vegas, etc. Voluntarily funded defense services.



Defensive violence is ok.



Call it whatever you want, but there is a huge difference. One group acquires its income through violence and asserts a coerced monopoly over a certain territorial area [1]

The other group claims no such arbitrary territorial monopoly and funds itself without violence.

So I hire the slightly corrupted Vinny The Hammer's Security Goons Inc. and tell them bozo over there stole my shit and kicked me. He never did any such thing. Vinny goes over to bozo's joint to settle the score and do whatever the frik these services would do with no jurisdiction and out step Vinny's competitors, Mojo Strongarm LLC locked and loaded and tell them to piss off. What happens next? Also.. bozo never stole anything. The other guys girl winked at him at the bar and he was gonna sick Vinny on him with lies to show him who is boss.

Your system will fail this thought experiment miserably. I guarantee it. Knock yourself out if you think yer gonna win the thread with this anarchy BS.

Rev9
 
However, both of these were cut short by outside forces. Humanity never had an anarchist system left alone to fully develop.

And that right there, considering the ongoing nature of the past 6000 years of recorded history is harsh reality and all the punditing about fantasyland is not gonna change base human nature. Only God can do that and these anarchist types don't generally have belief in divinity. Back to the drawing board for them till they get it..right..

Rev9
 
RiseAgainst, so in both scenarios Group A is the clear bad guy wielding a gun...forcing people to give up their property. But you still haven't answered my question.

If taxpayers were allowed to choose which government organizations received their taxes...why wouldn't they boycott Group A?

Group A is the group forcing you to pay the taxes. its' the government. if there was no group A, nobody would pay their tax
 
For anarchy to work the way anarchists wish it would, you would have to fundamentally change human nature and society.

Society yes, but not human nature. The vast majority of people abhor non-defensive violence. The government gets away with mass murder and destruction because people have been indoctrinated into believing a false dichotomy. They only accept the horrors of the government because they falsely believe that the only alternative is a larger degree of chaos and disorder.

The average citizen may not like — may even strongly object to — the policies and exactions of his government. But he has been imbued with the idea — carefully indoctrinated by centuries of governmental propaganda — that the government is his legitimate sovereign, and that it would be wicked or mad to refuse to obey its dictates. It is this sense of legitimacy that the State's intellectuals have fostered over the ages, aided and abetted by all the trappings of legitimacy: flags, rituals, ceremonies, awards, constitutions, etc. A bandit gang — even if all the police forces conspired together into one vast gang — could never command such legitimacy. The public would consider them purely bandits; their extortions and tributes would never be considered legitimate though onerous "taxes," to be paid automatically. The public would quickly resist these illegitimate demands and the bandits would be resisted and overthrown. - Murray Rothbard


If so called "anarchists" want their ideal totally free society with no government to exist, they need to change society first.

You could make this same objection to a limited government. Exchange "anarchist" for Constitutionalist, and "no government" with minimal government. No one denies that people have to be persuaded, but it is a matter of education. No need for a change in nature is needed. People already oppose evil, they have just been fooled into believing the source of it is the free market.

The Morality of Human Nature, Murray Rothbard

It is very common to assert that the advocates of the purely free market make one fundamental and shaky assumption: that all human beings are angels. In a society of angels, it is commonly agreed, such a program could “work,” but not in our fallible world. The chief difficulty with this criticism is that no libertarian—except possibly those under Tolstoyan influence—has ever made such an assumption. The advocates of the free market have not assumed a reformation of human nature, although they would certainly have no objection to such a reformation if it took place. We have seen that libertarians envision defense services against predators as provided by private bodies rather than by the State. But they do not assume that crime would magically disappear in the free society.

Statists concede to libertarians that no State would be required if all men were “good.” State control is allegedly required only to the extent that men are “evil.” But what if all men were “evil”? As F.A. Harper has pointed out:

Still using the same principle that political rulership should be employed to the extent of the evil in man, we would then have a society in which complete political rulership of all the affairs of everybody would be called for. . . . One man would rule all. But who would serve as the dictator? However he were to be selected and affixed to the political throne, he would surely be a totally evil person, since all men are evil. And this society would then be ruled by a totally evil dictator possessed of total political power. And how, in the name of logic, could anything short of total evil be its consequence? How could it be better than having no political rulership at all in that society?

Is this argument unrealistic because, as everyone agrees, human beings are a compound, capable of both good and evil? But then, at what point in this mixture does State dictation become necessary? In fact, the libertarian would reason that the fact that human nature is a mixture of both good and evil provides its own particular argument in his favor. For if man is such a mixture, then the best societal framework is surely one in which evil is discouraged and the good encouraged. The libertarian maintains that the existence of the State apparatus provides a ready, swift channel for the exercise of evil, since the rulers of the State are thereby legitimated and can wield compulsion in ways that no one else is permitted to do. What is considered “crime” socially, is called “exercise of democratic power” when performed by an individual as a State official. The purely free market, on the other hand, eliminates all legitimated channels for the exercise of power over man.
 
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