TN to ban smoking EVERYWHERE?

[TinCanToNA]

Either you're free or you're not.

I'll ignore the rest of your post as tripe.

The quoted part is the heart of the matter, and the point I was getting at. This quote is an incorrect statement in my view. Everyone is always not free to many degrees and always free to many degrees. Smoking presents a good example--one's freedom directly impairs another's freedom, one way or the other. This is only true if you recognize that economic power can be just as coercive as political power. If you don't see the harm in coercive economic contracts, then perhaps you are not the friend of individual rights you think you are.

However, as to the matter at hand, the actual ban being discussed in TN does seem to be a net minus to liberty. That does not negate the need for balance.



As for the Spain example, it was true for Rota, but it's been a bit.

Everyone has stuff about their job they hate. That's life.

If I lived in a bar, trust me, it would not be by force!

You're absolutely right, on both accounts.
However, I was more referring to a super-cheap slum complex where residents truly have few options of places to live, where the ventilation may be linked among rooms, etc. Such a situation is rare now, but if in principle you allow that, then in principle you have clearly chosen a side against some individual rights. That's all I was getting at.

 

[phill4paul]

What you have said, that it is as simple as moving and finding a new job, violates reality. That is not an option for innumerable people, and you know it. All of this nonsense and unthinking "let the market decide" or "you have unlimited choices, choose another one" bunk is one of a myriad of reasons why so many people refuse to deal with "those crazies that support Ron Paul." At least make the effort to live in the real world--you know, the one where sometimes other jobs simply aren't available, movement is economically unfeasible, and all sorts of nasty, brutish reality makes itself known.

Violates YOUR reality. The "victim" mentality. The way you choose to live your life is always filled with options. This is one of the reasons why I like Ron Pauls ideas. And if you consider me a "crazy" or that the idea is "bunk" then I would suggest moving on.
YOU live in a VICTIM reality where YOU think others need to conform for YOUR convenience.
I say it would be best if you simply moved along. Others have put forth excellent arguments, yet still you wish to play the lefts "victim" card.
If you do not agree with simple property rights then there is no "Hope" for you.
Make a "Change" and join the liberal forum of your choice.

 

[TinCanToNA]

Violates YOUR reality. The "victim" mentality. The way you choose to live your life is always filled with options. This is one of the reasons why I like Ron Pauls ideas. And if you consider me a "crazy" or that the idea is "bunk" then I would suggest moving on.
YOU live in a VICTIM reality where YOU think others need to conform for YOUR convenience.
I say it would be best if you simply moved along. Others have put forth excellent arguments, yet still you wish to play the lefts "victim" card.
If you do not agree with simple property rights then there is no "Hope" for you.
Make a "Change" and join the liberal forum of your choice.

You are transcribing attributes to me that do not exist, and your left/right paradigm is flawed. Regardless, you can call this an issue of "simple property rights," but you are wrong. All issues with the interaction of people in complex systems are, in fact, complex and involve several kinds of competing interests, including differing kinds of freedom. If you do not see a conflict, then you are an unreasonable idealist. Ron Paul has awesome ideas and a great philosophy, but he doesn't advocate the impossible or the unjust. He is not an unreasonable idealist.

 

[phill4paul]

It is, simply, an issue of property rights. YOU choose to be portrayed a victim of injustice when YOUR condition is a matter of YOUR own choosing.
You choose to make the situation "complex" because that would make the situation conform to your agenda. Sometimes "Black and White" are just that. Ron Paul is a reasoning idealist. I agree with him. You obviously do not. Why then are you here?

 

[Ninja Homer]

The clothes I'm wearing are my property. What of them?

If somebody wrecks your clothes, take them to small claims court.

You have no right to preempt the possible damage to your property by infringing on others' property rights.

I'd agree with you on a smoking ban in public buildings, but private property is another issue altogether. I know of at least 25 small, privately owned bar/restaurants that went out of business when the smoking ban went into effect in Minnesota, and I'm sure there's a lot more than that. The only places that did better after the ban were large corporate-owned chain restaurants that cater to families. All those poor waitresses, bartenders, and cooks that had to breathe all that horrible second hand smoke (although the vast majority of them were smokers anyway) are now unemployed.

When you restrict things, it prohibits trade, and it's usually the little guy that suffers, and then corporations profit from that suffering. It's not that hard to understand.

 

[phill4paul]

If somebody wrecks your clothes, take them to small claims court.

You have no right to preempt the possible damage to your property by infringing on others' property rights.

I'd agree with you on a smoking ban in public buildings, but private property is another issue altogether. I know of at least 25 small, privately owned bar/restaurants that went out of business when the smoking ban went into effect in Minnesota, and I'm sure there's a lot more than that. The only places that did better after the ban were large corporate-owned chain restaurants that cater to families. All those poor waitresses, bartenders, and cooks that had to breathe all that horrible second hand smoke (although the vast majority of them were smokers anyway) are now unemployed.

When you restrict things, it prohibits trade, and it's usually the little guy that suffers, and then corporations profit from that suffering. It's not that hard to understand.

I have the belief that N.C. unemployment after the Jan. 1st ban will exceed 15%. This state is nothing but service industry these days.

 

[ResistTemptation]

A ban on smoking inside on private property (read: bar, etc.) is asinine. A ban on smoking outside on private property is actually the more difficult argument. The reason is that smoke is not containable outside and thus travels onto other people's properties, including their clothes or lungs. I would imagine that a large enough property would allow smoking outside without affecting other property. Any government instituted ban does not get my vote, however, because the real solution is to sue those who trespass on your property, which includes any aggression to your senses or property. The current judicial system, overflowing with non-violent and zero-victim offenders, is not able to handle the influx of cases dealing with the free market solution. This is unfortunate but is immediately remedied by a free market approach.

So yes, a government ban is a bad idea.

 

[REDNECK WOMAN]

Smoking

My wife and I won't step foot in any AC Casino until they go smoke free. We were both black card members at the Borgata. How dare smokers still think they can smoke wherever they please, what year is this anyway 1970?
ALL EMPLOYEES need to be protected from the potentially harmful effects of second hand smoke. NO EXCUSES!!!
Last October when they went smoke free for 10 days it was in the midst of the worse economic downturn and even after they delayed/postponed the smoking ban the casinos still lost money almost EVERY month since. Don't want to hear crap about the smoking ban caused the decline.
AC went and pissed off ALL the non-smokers by changing the smoking ban before it even started.
Most non-smokers DON'T want to inhale your smoking habit, don't they get it??? It's your F'n habit, keep it to yourself.
As far as I'm concerned AC can kiss my smoke free a$$ until they smarten up and finally go totally smoke free. I'll even compromise and let them put walls up to isolate the smokers totally from the non-smokers. But the majority of smokers have ZERO respect for anyone around them.
Why do the casinos cater to the 20% of the smokers anyway? Maybe because they are like shooting fish in a barrel, weak and easily addict to gambling too? Why don't they market to the 80% of the non-smokers that still have money. Economics 101 and the casinos obviously FAILED.
More important are the thousands of casino employees that deserve a smoke free environment. Why are they second class workers? ALL workers in NJ should be PROTECTED. NO EXCUSES THIS TIME!!!

Um mm Excuse me, Excuse me do you fart? will you offend me with your farting ass smells in public!!!! you are using up my clean air and polluting it with your silent but deadly gas that comes out of your colon.. I would advise you to stop eating so you don't kill me with your farts. ( Carbon ) NO EXCUSE DON"T EAT AND KEEP YOUR BUTT COLON TIGHT AT ALL TIMES OR ELSE IF MY FART DETECTOR,DETECTS FARTS COMING FROM YOU THEN I AM SUING for damages to my nose and lungs and the clothes that i am wearing.

Don't you get it keep your farts to yourself no one respect anyone that can't pucker up and hold it!!!! go shit on yourself in your own home not in public. I want a fart free work place, etc.

 

[REDNECK WOMAN]

Smoking

My wife and I won't step foot in any AC Casino until they go smoke free. We were both black card members at the Borgata. How dare smokers still think they can smoke wherever they please, what year is this anyway 1970?
ALL EMPLOYEES need to be protected from the potentially harmful effects of second hand smoke. NO EXCUSES!!!
Last October when they went smoke free for 10 days it was in the midst of the worse economic downturn and even after they delayed/postponed the smoking ban the casinos still lost money almost EVERY month since. Don't want to hear crap about the smoking ban caused the decline.
AC went and pissed off ALL the non-smokers by changing the smoking ban before it even started.
Most non-smokers DON'T want to inhale your smoking habit, don't they get it??? It's your F'n habit, keep it to yourself.
As far as I'm concerned AC can kiss my smoke free a$$ until they smarten up and finally go totally smoke free. I'll even compromise and let them put walls up to isolate the smokers totally from the non-smokers. But the majority of smokers have ZERO respect for anyone around them.
Why do the casinos cater to the 20% of the smokers anyway? Maybe because they are like shooting fish in a barrel, weak and easily addict to gambling too? Why don't they market to the 80% of the non-smokers that still have money. Economics 101 and the casinos obviously FAILED.
More important are the thousands of casino employees that deserve a smoke free environment. Why are they second class workers? ALL workers in NJ should be PROTECTED. NO EXCUSES THIS TIME!!!

Um mm Excuse me, Excuse me do you fart? will you offend me with your farting ass smells in public!!!! you are using up my clean air and polluting it with your silent but deadly gas that comes out of your colon.. I would advise you to stop eating so you don't kill me with your farts. ( Carbon ) NO EXCUSE DON"T EAT AND KEEP YOUR BUTT COLON TIGHT AT ALL TIMES OR ELSE IF MY FART DETECTOR,DETECTS FARTS COMING FROM YOU THEN I AM SUING for damages to my nose and lungs and the clothes that i am wearing.

 

[shapular]

The day the smoking ban gets repealed, I'm going to exercise my liberty to carry around a bag of poop and wave it in smokers' faces.

 

[Valene]

''''''My wife and I won't step foot in any AC Casino until they go smoke free. We were both black card members at the Borgata. How dare smokers still think they can smoke wherever they please, what year is this anyway 1970?
ALL EMPLOYEES need to be protected from the potentially harmful effects of second hand smoke. NO EXCUSES!!!
Last October when they went smoke free for 10 days it was in the midst of the worse economic downturn and even after they delayed/postponed the smoking ban the casinos still lost money almost EVERY month since. Don't want to hear crap about the smoking ban caused the decline.
AC went and pissed off ALL the non-smokers by changing the smoking ban before it even started.
Most non-smokers DON'T want to inhale your smoking habit, don't they get it??? It's your F'n habit, keep it to yourself.
As far as I'm concerned AC can kiss my smoke free a$$ until they smarten up and finally go totally smoke free. I'll even compromise and let them put walls up to isolate the smokers totally from the non-smokers. But the majority of smokers have ZERO respect for anyone around them.
Why do the casinos cater to the 20% of the smokers anyway? Maybe because they are like shooting fish in a barrel, weak and easily addict to gambling too? Why don't they market to the 80% of the non-smokers that still have money. Economics 101 and the casinos obviously FAILED.
More important are the thousands of casino employees that deserve a smoke free environment. Why are they second class workers? ALL workers in NJ should be PROTECTED. NO EXCUSES THIS TIME!!'''' QUOTE


As for secondhand smoke in the air, OSHA has stated outright that: "Field studies of environmental tobacco smoke indicate that under normal conditions, the components in tobacco smoke are diluted below existing Permissible Exposure Levels (PELS.) as referenced in the Air Contaminant Standard (29 CFR 1910.1000)...It would be very rare to find a workplace with so much smoking that any individual PEL would be exceeded." -Letter From Greg Watchman, Acting Sec'y, OSHA, To Leroy J Pletten, PHD

 

[silverhandorder]

I'll ignore the rest of your post as tripe.

The quoted part is the heart of the matter, and the point I was getting at. This quote is an incorrect statement in my view. Everyone is always not free to many degrees and always free to many degrees. Smoking presents a good example--one's freedom directly impairs another's freedom, one way or the other. This is only true if you recognize that economic power can be just as coercive as political power. If you don't see the harm in coercive economic contracts, then perhaps you are not the friend of individual rights you think you are.

However, as to the matter at hand, the actual ban being discussed in TN does seem to be a net minus to liberty. That does not negate the need for balance.



As for the Spain example, it was true for Rota, but it's been a bit.




You're absolutely right, on both accounts.
However, I was more referring to a super-cheap slum complex where residents truly have few options of places to live, where the ventilation may be linked among rooms, etc. Such a situation is rare now, but if in principle you allow that, then in principle you have clearly chosen a side against some individual rights. That's all I was getting at.

I am sorry but you are wrong. Economic power used in coercive ways is not the same thing. If I use my economic power to drive people to do things they otherwise would not do it is not the same as me coming to their home and pointing a gun in their face.

First of all if you would know how economic power is acquired and maintained you would know it does not apply to workers. Economic power never applies to customers. Economic power can only in short term deter or harm competition.

 

[Goldhunter27]

The day the smoking ban gets repealed, I'm going to exercise my liberty to carry around a bag of poop and wave it in smokers' faces.

Lucky for me that years of smoking have destroyed my sense of smell. Enjoy your fail.

 

[shapular]

Lucky for me that years of smoking have destroyed my sense of smell. Enjoy your fail.

It's okay, I'll find something more effective. I'll also have you know that it's not so much the smell of smoke that bothers me, but that it severely hinders my ability to breathe and gives me headaches.

 

[Goldhunter27]

It's okay, I'll find something more effective. I'll also have you know that it's not so much the smell of smoke that bothers me, but that it severely hinders my ability to breathe and gives me headaches.

That's too bad. Here's an idea, when you see a smoker, walk away from them.

 

[Danke]

Um mm Excuse me, Excuse me do you fart? will you offend me with your farting ass smells in public!!!! you are using up my clean air and polluting it with your silent but deadly gas that comes out of your colon.. I would advise you to stop eating so you don't kill me with your farts. ( Carbon ) NO EXCUSE DON"T EAT AND KEEP YOUR BUTT COLON TIGHT AT ALL TIMES OR ELSE IF MY FART DETECTOR,DETECTS FARTS COMING FROM YOU THEN I AM SUING for damages to my nose and lungs and the clothes that i am wearing.

Don't you get it keep your farts to yourself no one respect anyone that can't pucker up and hold it!!!! go shit on yourself in your own home not in public. I want a fart free work place, etc.

^ Now there's a Redneck Woman!!

 

[REDNECK WOMAN]

smoking

The day the smoking ban gets repealed, I'm going to exercise my liberty to carry around a bag of poop and wave it in smokers' faces.

And I will sue because that is my right to not have to smell your bag of poop!!!! You don't realize it but the Carbon tax is going to tax all your gas out of your ass so learn to pucker up that old colon hole because you go broke farting.

 

[Icymudpuppy]

Gotta love Tennessee.

Home of a large number of tobacco producers set to outlaw smoking.

Definitely a fitting continuation of trends where:
the Home of Jack Daniel's whiskey production is a "Dry" county in Tennessee.

The Irony.

 

[shapular]

That's too bad. Here's an idea, when you see a smoker, walk away from them.

Not terribly easy to do when I'm sitting down in a restaurant.

And I will sue because that is my right to not have to smell your bag of poop!!!! You don't realize it but the Carbon tax is going to tax all your gas out of your ass so learn to pucker up that old colon hole because you go broke farting.

Then I have the right not to have to smell your smoke. Don't you dare come near me with a cigarette or I'll sue you. I actually have no idea if you're being serious because you certainly don't type like it.

 

[Goldhunter27]

Not terribly easy to do when I'm sitting down in a restaurant.



Then I have the right not to have to smell your smoke. Don't you dare come near me with a cigarette or I'll sue you. I actually have no idea if you're being serious because you certainly don't type like it.

Welp, you can always go to a different restaurant.