Tired of RP Supporters' Economic BS

You have 30 posts and you are the expert on what RP supporters know and dont know? Sorry doesnt work that way.

Maybe if you enlightened us with more than 30 posts we would be smart as well.

Are you saying that Ron Paul supporters don't post on any other forums anywhere else on the internet?

I've seen Paulites come and go at mises.com asking about various things. Maybe look at the Ron Paul Issues forum here on this site. Three questions about monopolies right there.

I see Ron Paul supporters on totse.com, sociocide.com, philosophyforum.com, and other sites being confused about the gold standard and the gold exchange standard.

I've been registered on this site for much longer than my 30 posts would suggest.

The average Rp supporter is the best educated group in ANY current political group.

Where have I said otherwise?

And some of that is just your opinion. Monopolies good? hehe And you use Microsoft and Coca Cola as examples.. Microsoft has crappy overpriced products that are not created for the markets. They are packaged to capture as many markets as possible.

Microsoft might have crappy products but people buy them because they're cheaper than all the other products. People value the cheapness of Microsoft over the quality of Mac. It's called marginalism, marginal utility, subjectivism, and many other things. In short, people value what they value and you shouldn't be imposing your own values of quality on them.

SEE! Here, another Paul supporter who doesn't understand Paul's stance against anti-trust laws. Thank you for proving my point.

And Coca Cola has killed countless people to force coca cola in countries that did not want to take it. I can get a canned cola from countless companies that tastes the same or better. Many with healthier cane sugar than fructose....

Then get those canned colas! But many people prefer Coca Cola or Pepsi to some third no-name brand. Why do you have a right to impose your values on them?

Remember the origins... Cocaine!

So now you're for the drug war? What a great Ron Paul supporter you are! :eek:

Personally I think monopolies dont create economies of scale. They create waste and complacent companies.

Give one example of an actual monpoly existing in a free market. Just one that had bad effects. Try. I dare you.
 
You have 30 posts and you are the expert on what RP supporters know and dont know? Sorry doesnt work that way.

Maybe if you enlightened us with more than 30 posts we would be smart as well.

Your 1000 post count, and my 3800 post count, and Kaju's 30 post count, are meaningless. Meaningless. It is clear after reading the content of Kaju's remarks and observing his written thought processes, that he has a level of intelligence that fits in nicely with the majority of Ron Paul supporters. I welcome him to the forum and hope that he continues to teach us a thing or two.
 
Are you saying that Ron Paul supporters don't post on any other forums anywhere else on the internet?

I've seen Paulites come and go at mises.com asking about various things. Maybe look at the Ron Paul Issues forum here on this site. Three questions about monopolies right there.

I see Ron Paul supporters on totse.com, sociocide.com, philosophyforum.com, and other sites being confused about the gold standard and the gold exchange standard.

Yes there are other RP sites. But it doesnt sound like you go there either. DailyPaul Ronpaulforum and here are the top 3.

Where have I said otherwise?
Well because you are ranting about how bad RP supporters are at understanding your favored topics. Remember these are your topics. Not everyones. Supporting RP means you like him more than the other candidates, nothing more. I actually disagree with RP about quite a few things. Some of them are on these topics.....

Why don't you create a quest to inform other candidates supporters about ...well anything substantive. At least get them to RP supporters level....

Microsoft might have crappy products but people buy them because they're cheaper than all the other products. People value the cheapness of Microsoft over the quality of Mac. It's called marginalism, marginal utility, subjectivism, and many other things. In short, people value what they value and you shouldn't be imposing your own values of quality on them.

SEE! Here, another Paul supporter who doesn't understand Paul's stance against anti-trust laws. Thank you for proving my point.

I didn't say that was RPs stance. I wrote it, its mine.... And as for the other things I have never seen anyone decide that Microsoft's stuff was cheap. The "standard" version of Office 2007 is $314! That is about half the price of many entry level computers. And it is just software and most people only need Word and Excel..... Most people have no idea what Windows costs as it is bundled on new computers. Microsoft has made its empire with bundling the OS and forcing people to buy work/friend compatible Office suites. Not from some economy of scale or cheap prices.

Then get those canned colas! But many people prefer Coca Cola or Pepsi to some third no-name brand. Why do you have a right to impose your values on them?

Who said I was? I am just stating that Coca Cola is not superior in taste or health aspects. In fact it has a history of not being healthy. Especially if you get in their way. Killer Coke But remember monopolies are not bad, and sometimes kill just for fun, not that they know monopolies can get a strangelhold on an industry.

And I like how you marginalize the other drinks. I am talking about top quality, niche and imported drinks and you make it sound like white label drinks.

So now you're for the drug war? What a great Ron Paul supporter you are! :eek:

Who said I parrot RPs ideas? I dont. But I think deceptive packaging is obviously bad when there are drugs in the foods. If someone wants a bag of cocaine that is stupid but fine in my opinion. But putting cocaine in a drink to addict people? WTF?


Give one example of an actual monpoly existing in a free market. Just one that had bad effects. Try. I dare you.
I might spend some time on thinking about this if you define "actual monopoly" and "free market". Is the United States with its corporate and legal realities one now? And can you give me an example following your definitions to the two above that have had LONGTERM good effects? Long term in my definition is at least 10 to 20 years.
 
Yes there are other RP sites. But it doesnt sound like you go there either. DailyPaul Ronpaulforum and here are the top 3.

Good job ignoring what I said. I was talking about non-RP forums where Ron Paul supporters post.

Well because you are ranting about how bad RP supporters are at understanding your favored topics. Remember these are your topics. Not everyones. Supporting RP means you like him more than the other candidates, nothing more. I actually disagree with RP about quite a few things. Some of them are on these topics.....

Why don't you create a quest to inform other candidates supporters about ...well anything substantive. At least get them to RP supporters level....

This is an RP forum, isn't it?

I didn't say that was RPs stance. I wrote it, its mine.... And as for the other things I have never seen anyone decide that Microsoft's stuff was cheap. The "standard" version of Office 2007 is $314! That is about half the price of many entry level computers. And it is just software and most people only need Word and Excel..... Most people have no idea what Windows costs as it is bundled on new computers. Microsoft has made its empire with bundling the OS and forcing people to buy work/friend compatible Office suites. Not from some economy of scale or cheap prices.

Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy anything. Providing bundles, aka discounts on software, is a great thing that cuts costs for everyone. You can't criticize Microsoft as being bad when people voluntary buy their products. There is no coercion.

If anything, you should be arguing for less government intervention by abolishing patent and copyright laws that prevent competition from lowering the prices of Microsoft products.

Who said I was? I am just stating that Coca Cola is not superior in taste or health aspects. In fact it has a history of not being healthy. Especially if you get in their way. Killer Coke But remember monopolies are not bad, and sometimes kill just for fun, not that they know monopolies can get a strangelhold on an industry.

Thanks for providing more proof of government failing. :)

You still have to provide an example of a free market monopoly though!

And I like how you marginalize the other drinks. I am talking about top quality, niche and imported drinks and you make it sound like white label drinks.

... yet nobody buys them? Why? Because they prefer Coca Cola and/or Pepsi. People like you want to raise the price of those products by adding needless regulations and breaking up companies like that, decreasing efficiency and killing entrepreneurship.

Who said I parrot RPs ideas? I dont. But I think deceptive packaging is obviously bad when there are drugs in the foods. If someone wants a bag of cocaine that is stupid but fine in my opinion. But putting cocaine in a drink to addict people? WTF?

Cocaine was in a lot of products back then and people actually sought it out. There was demand and they filled it.

I might spend some time on thinking about this if you define "actual monopoly" and "free market". Is the United States with its corporate and legal realities one now? And can you give me an example following your definitions to the two above that have had LONGTERM good effects? Long term in my definition is at least 10 to 20 years.

Monopoly is 100% market share. Free market is a market without any regulations beyond basic protection or natural rights.
 
Good job ignoring what I said. I was talking about non-RP forums where Ron Paul supporters post.



This is an RP forum, isn't it?



Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy anything. Providing bundles, aka discounts on software, is a great thing that cuts costs for everyone. You can't criticize Microsoft as being bad when people voluntary buy their products. There is no coercion.

If anything, you should be arguing for less government intervention by abolishing patent and copyright laws that prevent competition from lowering the prices of Microsoft products.



Thanks for providing more proof of government failing. :)

You still have to provide an example of a free market monopoly though!



... yet nobody buys them? Why? Because they prefer Coca Cola and/or Pepsi. People like you want to raise the price of those products by adding needless regulations and breaking up companies like that, decreasing efficiency and killing entrepreneurship.



Cocaine was in a lot of products back then and people actually sought it out. There was demand and they filled it.



Monopoly is 100% market share. Free market is a market without any regulations beyond basic protection or natural rights.

Kaju, it's great to have another person here who knows what he's talking about. It seems like you shut Kade up, because he hasn't responded. I go at it with him all the time and he just ignores facts and responds with insults.

Thanks for quieting some of the naysayers.
 
Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to buy anything. Providing bundles, aka discounts on software, is a great thing that cuts costs for everyone. You can't criticize Microsoft as being bad when people voluntary buy their products. There is no coercion.
Ya keep telling yourself that. No coercion as in none at all? I would say there is some coercion. If Microsoft was really the saint you say they are they would have made all their products save copies to open source formats. Not .doc .xls .ppt etc..... They did that for a reason.

Bundles are not discounts. Bundles are two or more products sold together. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_(marketing) Discounts are Discounts. You can give one on any product. Even one product...

Sometimes there are natural reasons for bundling like cellular phones and service. But bundling in a monopolistic industry is an intrusion to competition in my opinion.

Microsoft did this to create a standard. I can understand this, but dont think Microsoft did this to benefit anyone but themselves and their shareholders. The reason the internet is so big is because Microsoft did not understand it and get their hands on it first.

.html is an open source and most successful standards that have truly helped people have been open source.

Microsoft has only relaxed some strangles they were putting on systems because of legislation. Not because of some concern for the consumer.

If anything, you should be arguing for less government intervention by abolishing patent and copyright laws that prevent competition from lowering the prices of Microsoft products.
LOL - Abolish one of the last bastions of American ingenuity? Intellectual Property? Why would I want to support that? Besides if little copyright enforcement helped spur IP development China would be designing all our software and France would still be in the Pharmaceutical business. Since the patents left, the French Pharma companies stopped researching drugs. No incentive....

... yet nobody buys them? Why? Because they prefer Coca Cola and/or Pepsi. People like you want to raise the price of those products by adding needless regulations and breaking up companies like that, decreasing efficiency and killing entrepreneurship.

I don't believe people prefer Coca Cola because of a superior product or some economy of scale you talk about. Whenever I go shopping Coke costs the same or more as everything else.

Coca Cola sells because of marketing and distribution. If you had blind taste tests I could pick 20 beverages that I think taste better and could be sold retail at the same as Coca Cola. I think other people would do the same. But it would not be in the vending machine 20 feet away...

Cocaine was in a lot of products back then and people actually sought it out. There was demand and they filled it.

Most were medicinal. And why not just write it on the label? I don't think they ever did....O ya the stigma of being an addict.... You are imagining this demand. Do you have proof? Or were people simply addicted to one of the most addicting substances in the world and could buy it without going to a drug pusher?
 
Ya keep telling yourself that. No coercion as in none at all? I would say there is some coercion. If Microsoft was really the saint you say they are they would have made all their products save copies to open source formats. Not .doc .xls .ppt etc..... They did that for a reason.

Bundles are not discounts. Bundles are two or more products sold together. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_(marketing) Discounts are Discounts. You can give one on any product. Even one product...

Sometimes there are natural reasons for bundling like cellular phones and service. But bundling in a monopolistic industry is an intrusion to competition in my opinion.

Microsoft did this to create a standard. I can understand this, but dont think Microsoft did this to benefit anyone but themselves and their shareholders. The reason the internet is so big is because Microsoft did not understand it and get their hands on it first.

.html is an open source and most successful standards that have truly helped people have been open source.

What's your point? Are you against more products for one, cheaper price (or DISCOUNTS)? Again, nobody was forced to buy Microsoft products, there have been, there are, and there always will be competitors to Microsoft. The reason Microsoft was so successful was because they created a product consumers liked.

Is there anything wrong with that? Why should anti-trust laws

Microsoft has only relaxed some strangles they were putting on systems because of legislation. Not because of some concern for the consumer.

Really, what you're talking about is a problem with government granted monopolies, eg intellectual "property," and not anything to do with the free market.

LOL - Abolish one of the last bastions of American ingenuity? Intellectual Property? Why would I want to support that? Besides if little copyright enforcement helped spur IP development China would be designing all our software and France would still be in the Pharmaceutical business. Since the patents left, the French Pharma companies stopped researching drugs. No incentive....

Maybe you forgot about this little thing called competition. If you're a big Pharma company of course you don't want intellectual property to be abolished because smaller businesses will then compete with you.

Why do you think ibuprofen, a chemical only found in certain trees in the South American jungle, is so cheap? Because where no government monopolies exist the price system is allowed to work as normal, when prices are high producers have an incentive to produce more driving prices down. But in a gov't enforced monopoly situation there is no such thing as it is in the interest of a single controlling company to keep supply low and prices high.

Also, you really need to provide a source.

I don't believe people prefer Coca Cola because of a superior product or some economy of scale you talk about. Whenever I go shopping Coke costs the same or more as everything else.

You're obviously not getting something: People buy Coca Cola because they value coke more than other drinks. You don't buy coke if you like pepsi more. You don't buy Coke or Pepsi if you like Dr. Pepper more. You don't buy Coke, Pepsi, or Dr. Pepper more if you like Mott's Apple Juice more.

Do you get it now? It's about voluntary transactions and the freedom of choice. Why anyone would want to destroy Coca Cola or Pepsi and therefore driving the prices of those brands up and destroying the stocks of thousands of people, I have no clue.

Coca Cola sells because of marketing and distribution. If you had blind taste tests I could pick 20 beverages that I think taste better and could be sold retail at the same as Coca Cola. I think other people would do the same. But it would not be in the vending machine 20 feet away...

What a huge fallacy. You really think you know better than everyone else, don't you? You really think that your values, your preferences, and your tastes are universal?

And if Coca Cola became #1 by advertising, then so what? You want to destroy their freedom of speech?

Most were medicinal. And why not just write it on the label? I don't think they ever did....O ya the stigma of being an addict.... You are imagining this demand. Do you have proof? Or were people simply addicted to one of the most addicting substances in the world and could buy it without going to a drug pusher?

Drugs used to be legal and cocaine quite popular as a medicine, you know, and many people knew when they were taking products with coca. Here is a link, and as you can clearly see many of the medicines have coca listed either in their name or somewhere on them. Also, please note Coca-Cola. It was no secret that there was cocaine in Coca-Cola, there's a reason the "coca" was in the name.
 
Your 1000 post count, and my 3800 post count, and Kaju's 30 post count, are meaningless. Meaningless. It is clear after reading the content of Kaju's remarks and observing his written thought processes, that he has a level of intelligence that fits in nicely with the majority of Ron Paul supporters. I welcome him to the forum and hope that he continues to teach us a thing or two.

+ infinity
 
Remember these are your topics. Not everyones.

I'm enjoying the discussion and explanations Kaju is providing! This is GREAT STUFF!

Why don't you create a quest to inform other candidates supporters about ...well anything substantive. At least get them to RP supporters level....


NO!!!!! Stay here, Kaju, please! I love what you're doing!


:D
 
It is also impossible to prevent murder in a free society. What is your point?

fees on top of loans aren't murder is the point. Many have tried to explain how a commodity backed economic system handles it.

Your graphs might make sense on paper, but real world economics aren't so simple.

The only analogy I can think of is to argue that flying an airplane is impossible in a free society because if too many people fly utter chaos would erupt so nobody can fly and then compare airplane flight with murder as something government can naturally oppose.
 
No, they did the only logical thing possible to keep a flawed system functioning.

There was nothing wrong with the system. But if there was, then our current system is much worse.

Human resistance to change overwhelms conscience and/or intelligence.

Yes. That is why krazy kaju keeps schooling you but you won't admit that your claims are flawed.


They either figured the flaw out then, or had their economic "PNAC" in place planned ahead of time knowing simple mathematics.
If we were all herded into state of the art detention centers with food, shelter, and sustenance for all, would our standard of living not increase? It's seductive but we know from history it will fail because tyranny is inconsistent with the human spirit. Likewise, compound interest is seductive but it is inconsistent with simple physical/natural laws.

Huh? Moving from a free society to a detention center is an improvement in the standard of living?


Thus, we have sacrificed liberty and ownership for false prosperity. We have chosen to rent many things instead of owning a few outright(as RP says 'living within our means'), and in doing so we have given up our sovereignty. We chose seduction instead of intelligence.

i'm trying to figure out how you went from "rent many things" to "given up our sovereignty"

In 1913 or 1971 we could have changed the system knowing we were approaching a physical impossibility - a mathematical slope of infinity.

...???
 
I don't think you understand they way our healthcare system works.

You got it avaroth.......the only way to fix the healthcare system.....is to take the profit out of being sick......profit in the medical industry can only be given to those who keep people well........

The easiest way to make this happen is regulations within the FDA......

The regulations that would need to be made....is to......

1.) Make the leadership in the FDA electable......

2.) No one who had EVER worked for a food producer, pharmecutical company, or been involved in the health care industry would be barred from running for FDA positions of power........

3.) No one who served the FDA in an employment opportunity could ever take a job in the food , medical, or drug industry or could receive payments legally from the food, drug , or medical industry.....after finishing their term in the FDA......

This is a sure fire way to stop the medical industry from keeping people sick for profit.....by not being able to help people profit from doing their will

The profits of the health industry should go to those who keep people well.........
 
:mad:
You got it avaroth.......the only way to fix the healthcare system.....is to take the profit out of being sick......profit in the medical industry can only be given to those who keep people well........

The easiest way to make this happen is regulations within the FDA......

The regulations that would need to be made....is to......

1.) Make the leadership in the FDA electable......

2.) No one who had EVER worked for a food producer, pharmecutical company, or been involved in the health care industry would be barred from running for FDA positions of power........

3.) No one who served the FDA in an employment opportunity could ever take a job in the food , medical, or drug industry or could receive payments legally from the food, drug , or medical industry.....after finishing their term in the FDA......

This is a sure fire way to stop the medical industry from keeping people sick for profit.....by not being able to help people profit from doing their will

The profits of the health industry should go to those who keep people well.........

yes. because we all know our elected officials at the federal level keep us safe.
 
:mad:

yes. because we all know our elected officials at the federal level keep us safe.

actually...we know that those who are supposed to keep us safe have sold out to corporate entities who would keep us sick so they can profit off the sickness they have created.....

That is why I feel we need to take the profit out of sickness....and give it those whose product is wellness......
 
Kaju, here's a heads up. Don't listen to bufallokid. He will spew nonsense on topics he knows nothing about.

So, buffalokid...you're at it again? Do you have any evidence to back up your claims this time, or will you be spewing rhetoric with your fingers in your ears again.
 
Kaju, here's a heads up. Don't listen to bufallokid. He will spew nonsense on topics he knows nothing about.

So, buffalokid...you're at it again? Do you have any evidence to back up your claims this time, or will you be spewing rhetoric with your fingers in your ears again.

we all know your dan berkley.....I only stop in here once and awhile for an I told you so....

like freddie mac...fannie mae......wow $100,000 in shorts to $188,000 in about a 1/3 of a year, nice gains :)

hows that shearson lehman, ubs, and merryl lynch stock treating you rockandrollsouls/danberkeley?

HAHAHAHAHA........
 
we all know your dan berkley.....I only stop in here once and awhile for an I told you so....

you told us what? nothing you've said has been true or come true.

like freddie mac...fannie mae......wow $100,000 in shorts to $188,000 in about a 1/3 of a year, nice gains :)

hows that shearson lehman, ubs, and merryl lynch stock treating you rockandrollsouls/danberkeley?


lehman is down....

actually...we know that those who are supposed to keep us safe have sold out to corporate entities who would keep us sick so they can profit off the sickness they have created.....

That is why I feel we need to take the profit out of sickness....and give it those whose product is wellness......

take the profit out of sickness? sound great, Obama fan! (sarcasm). besides, hostipals were once run by churches and other charitable organizations and provided services for free or at very low prices. however, government regulation put them out of business. next, i expect you to give us an ad hominem about the church followed by another statement that is totally irrelevent to this topic.
 
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Again, thanks for all the good words everyone.

And buffalokid: are you saying that profit needs to be eliminated in the health care industry? Then let me enlighten you with this little quote from Adam Smith:
It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our necessities but of their advantages.

You can't take the profit motive out of the health care industry and expect it to work. The profit motive is what drives everyone to do what they do. Hospitals won't be built on a massive scale to fill demand if you can't make a profit. People won't become doctors unless they can make a profit. Insurance companies will cease to exist if they can't make a profit.

The key to fixing our health care industry is to eliminate the regulations making health care expensive. For example, we could start by deregulating the health insurance industry. Regulations force insurance companies to cover more things than they otherwise would, which drives costs and prices up. Other things which we should do is eliminate Medicare and Medicaid which drives prices up by introducing a lot of artificial demand into the system. It's not unknown for doctors to cheat Medicare and Medicaid by millions of dollars which is a major reason for high medical costs.

Other things which could be done would be eliminating union control over businesses. When businesses are forced to purchase expensive insurance coverage instead of setting aside HSAs for their employees, it again causes health care costs to rise due to an influx of artificial demand.

Finally, I'd like to point out that the US still has the best health care quality ever. If you would've read the sources I provided earlier in this thread you would've seen that Americans with fatal diseases have better survival rates than Europeans and that the WHO report on health care quality actually ranks the US number one in terms of quality.
 
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