Time For Libertarians To Leave The GOP?

[Swordsmyth]

The problem with the Libertarian Party is that its filled with a bunch of beta males who run beta male candidates. If the party spend the past few decades running people with alpha male personalities, the party wouldn't be having a lot of issues right now. They don't even need to be alpha males in the same vain as Trump. They just have to be alpha males in general. I love Ron, Rand, Massie, and Amash. I appreciate everything they have done over the years. But until they start acting like alpha males, nothing is ever doing to get done. Trump is an alpha male whether we want to admit it or not. Trump gave us the blue print on how to win elections. Whether he did that on purpose or not I have no idea. In fact, all the GOP has to do from this point onward is to have every Republican candidate campaign the exact way Trump did, and you'll probably go a couple decades without a Democrat in office.

Sheeple need leaders to lead them to liberty.

 

[Anti Globalist]

Also how the fuck do you expect people to take libertarians seriously when you have shit like this:

 

[Cap]

Also how the $#@! do you expect people to take libertarians seriously when you have $#@! like this:

I agree!

 

[juleswin]

I agree!

Trump is not a libertarian and the weirdo sexual performance by Trump wasn't done during party function, these 2 don't compare. I still think someone is trying to sabotage the libertarian party because this help the D and R party.

I think if all the libertarians LARPing in the republican party all came back to the libertarian party, we could be able to clean the trolls out and make something good out of it. At it is, there is no way we can make any meaningful change in the democrat or republican party, our numbers are too small and our voices will be drowned out by the noise from both parties.

 

[devil21]

Also how the fuck do you expect people to take libertarians seriously when you have shit like this:

I have it on good authority that the crowd was ready to dismember that man for that stunt. Crap like that (and Sarwark, eg) is to intentionally discredit the LP.

The problem with the Libertarian Party is that its filled with a bunch of beta males who run beta male candidates. If the party spend the past few decades running people with alpha male personalities, the party wouldn't be having a lot of issues right now. They don't even need to be alpha males in the same vain as Trump. They just have to be alpha males in general. I love Ron, Rand, Massie, and Amash. I appreciate everything they have done over the years. But until they start acting like alpha males, nothing is ever doing to get done. Trump is an alpha male whether we want to admit it or not. Trump gave us the blue print on how to win elections. Whether he did that on purpose or not I have no idea. In fact, all the GOP has to do from this point onward is to have every Republican candidate campaign the exact way Trump did, and you'll probably go a couple decades without a Democrat in office.

This I can mostly agree with. A lack of alpha-ness and military style thinking/campaigning does hurt 3rd parties. I've been working on an LP congressional candidate to be more assertive and more about following the typical campaign roadmap, instead of writing long op-eds that no one reads. We'll see if it yields any improved results.

 

[Champ]

It probably goes without saying, but it is not only time for libertarians to stop working with the GOP, but for all people to abandon both of these parties that hate and despise every last person that makes up their voting base. Some liberal minded people have their #walkaway movement going and I'm seeing ordinary folks taking notice of it too. All of these parties are already in the process of dying, same with the legacy media that has helped prop them up. In my estimation, Trump gave some of these disenfranchised citizens a last bit of hope in some ways, or a last gasp attempt for the GOP to do something right, but Trump is going to be gone in 2-6 years regardless of what you think of him and regardless of what happens in 2020 and then they are going to be left with reality. It isn't happening today or tomorrow, but it's happening within all of our lifetimes and it may be happening sooner than any of us could have imagined. People are moving on and not buying into the garbage anymore. The Iran false flag(s) in recent days and the response by "normies" even rolling their eyes at the entire thing is a sign of this.

There will be those that say "nope, we're screwed" or "I'm not holding my breath" and will stick to that mantra to their dying breath. If that's what they want to do with their time here, then that's their prerogative. There is still a lot of work to do, but you can see all of this is already in the process of happening thanks to forums like this , video sharing sites, and even social media networks that many of us despise, and all of these are having a hand in the enlightenment of the people to the debt, the corporate control and influence, the illusion of liberty and free elections, and fraud that is our current nation building, Israel protecting, fascist/communist welfare for all empire.

I pray to God that we can accomplish this all without too many people dying. Some days it feels like we can, other days it feels like some ridiculous battle with various factions fighting leftism/communism/socialism that will not let go of the idea of having everyone live under their vision of "equality for all" must be enforced by "any means necessary." I think they will cower in the end, but as this country (and others throughout history) has proven, propaganda can get just about anyone to do evil things in the name of perceived justice and victory.

 

[Ender]

It probably goes without saying, but it is not only time for libertarians to stop working with the GOP, but for all people to abandon both of these parties that hate and despise every last person that makes up their voting base. Some liberal minded people have their #walkaway movement going and I'm seeing ordinary folks taking notice of it too. All of these parties are already in the process of dying, same with the legacy media that has helped prop them up. In my estimation, Trump gave some of these disenfranchised citizens a last bit of hope in some ways, or a last gasp attempt for the GOP to do something right, but Trump is going to be gone in 2-6 years regardless of what you think of him and regardless of what happens in 2020 and then they are going to be left with reality. It isn't happening today or tomorrow, but it's happening within all of our lifetimes and it may be happening sooner than any of us could have imagined. People are moving on and not buying into the garbage anymore. The Iran false flag(s) in recent days and the response by "normies" even rolling their eyes at the entire thing is a sign of this.

There will be those that say "nope, we're screwed" or "I'm not holding my breath" and will stick to that mantra to their dying breath. If that's what they want to do with their time here, then that's their prerogative. There is still a lot of work to do, but you can see all of this is already in the process of happening thanks to forums like this , video sharing sites, and even social media networks that many of us despise, and all of these are having a hand in the enlightenment of the people to the debt, the corporate control and influence, the illusion of liberty and free elections, and fraud that is our current nation building, Israel protecting, fascist/communist welfare for all empire.

I pray to God that we can accomplish this all without too many people dying. Some days it feels like we can, other days it feels like some ridiculous battle with various factions fighting leftism/communism/socialism that will not let go of the idea of having everyone live under their vision of "equality for all" must be enforced by "any means necessary." I think they will cower in the end, but as this country (and others throughout history) has proven, propaganda can get just about anyone to do evil things in the name of perceived justice and victory.

AMEN!

 

[Swordsmyth]

Trump is not a libertarian and the weirdo sexual performance by Trump wasn't done during party function, these 2 don't compare. I still think someone is trying to sabotage the libertarian party because this help the D and R party.

I think if all the libertarians LARPing in the republican party all came back to the libertarian party, we could be able to clean the trolls out and make something good out of it. At it is, there is no way we can make any meaningful change in the democrat or republican party, our numbers are too small and our voices will be drowned out by the noise from both parties.

The libertarians in the GOP have done far more good than the LP ever has or ever could.
The Constitution party might give the GOP a run for their money if the real small government supporters left the GOP and joined it but they would have to keep the anarchists and weirdos out.

 

[RonZeplin]

I agree!

+rep

Weeks is..... Better Than Trump

 

[devil21]

Trump is not a libertarian and the weirdo sexual performance by Trump wasn't done during party function, these 2 don't compare. I still think someone is trying to sabotage the libertarian party because this help the D and R party.

I think if all the libertarians LARPing in the republican party all came back to the libertarian party, we could be able to clean the trolls out and make something good out of it. At it is, there is no way we can make any meaningful change in the democrat or republican party, our numbers are too small and our voices will be drowned out by the noise from both parties.

Actually, in my experience, at the leadership levels of the GOP and DNC at least, it's the simple fact that they don't care for playing by any set of rules and simply do what they want to maintain control over the parties. The sheep follow along, yes, but the head is where the poisoning starts. They don't mind rigging conventions, lying about votes, engaging in bribes (see: NCGOP Chairman Robin Hayes recent indictment) and every other type of corruption imaginable. Anybody that was involved in the convention processes during RP's campaigns knows what I'm talking about. It's a combination of sociopath/psychopath need to engage in dirty pool but also to maintain their cushy jobs that pay them to do mostly nothing.

 

[Cleaner44]

The libertarians in the GOP have done far more good than the LP ever has or ever could.
The Constitution party might give the GOP a run for their money if the real small government supporters left the GOP and joined it but they would have to keep the anarchists and weirdos out.

Rand Paul alone has done more than the Libertarian party ever has in my opinion.

The best path forward seems obvious to me. While the Marxists are dividing themselves in the Democrat party, libertarians should work like Rand to advance limited government ideals within the Republican party. Bill Kristol and his ilk are weakened and should be completely pushed out of the Republican party and back to the Democrat party from whence they came. Many Republican voters that very recently nominated John McCain now see him as a traitor when it came to killing Obamacare. The GOP has been moved away from the neocons and more of that is what we need.

I see the best path as remaking the GOP as much as possible to be a conservative alternative to the Marxist party.

Unfortunately the reality is that America is a 2 party nation. Given this reality and the fact that the Democrat party is publicly dedicated to communism, there is only 1 viable alternative. It seems to me the best choice is to work on making the GOP adhere to the small government philosophy that the party stands for on paper.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Rand Paul alone has done more than the Libertarian party ever has in my opinion.

The best path forward seems obvious to me. While the Marxists are dividing themselves in the Democrat party, libertarians should work like Rand to advance limited government ideals within the Republican party. Bill Kristol and his ilk are weakened and should be completely pushed out of the Republican party and back to the Democrat party from whence they came. Many Republican voters that very recently nominated John McCain now see him as a traitor when it came to killing Obamacare. The GOP has been moved away from the neocons and more of that is what we need.

I see the best path as remaking the GOP as much as possible to be a conservative alternative to the Marxist party.

Unfortunately the reality is that America is a 2 party nation. Given this reality and the fact that the Democrat party is publicly dedicated to communism, there is only 1 viable alternative. It seems to me the best choice is to work on making the GOP adhere to the small government philosophy that the party stands for on paper.

You are probably correct but if the Demoncrats shatter there might be an opportunity to break up the GOP and switch to the Constitution Party.

 

[cruzrulez]

Some people just want to be contrarian and an outsider no matter what the cost is. That's just who they are. They will never win. They love losing. It's a martyrs complex, self defeating, and a loser attitude.

We can lead the people. The people need leaders. Leaving the GOP is a fools errand at this time.

 

[Anti Globalist]

If Amash loses his seat he should run for president in 2020 and get his own back on Trump. This is becoming personal and I prefer to stand with Amash

Amash does that and his political career will be over.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Amash does that and his political career will be over.

If it isn't already.

It's a shame to lose him.

 

[RonZeplin]

MAGA, never vote D or R again

No loss if Donnell & Joe Biden along with the D&R party disappears .

The Constitution & Libertarian parties etc. can then offer the voters a choice, between some pro-American candidates.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

I don't dislike libertarians. I dislike their methods. The very premise of the thread is to give bad advice on what libertarians should do to become even more politically impotent than they already are. What exactly is that going to solve?

We have no political power now and we won't till our numbers increase dramatically. The only question is how to grow our numbers. One, very stupid strategy is to actively support our enemies, merge with them, and lose our identity altogether: i.e. bring our numbers down to 0. That might provide some delusional good feelz about "having a seat at the table," but it's political suicide. The better alternative is to become an opposition party, which has several major advantages:

--You don't have to worry about the short-term political consequences of your actions (you're not competing in elections).
--You can blame your enemies for the status quo (because they're in power), while they can't blame you (because you're not)
--You appear to be more honest and well-meaning, even to people who disagree with you (power doesn't corrupt if you have none)
--People fundamentally like an underdog.

Ask yourself if Ron would have been able to build the movement that he did if he had been a "team player" in the GOP. He wouldn't have. Those advantages listed above are what enabled Ron to appear as the telling-truth-to-power outsider that he was. And by that method he was able to massively increase the size of the libertarian movement. All of those gains have been lost in recent years through excessive fraternization with the GOP.

This is especially effective during times of crisis. Ron's success was a result of the application of the "outsider" strategy at the right moment (Great Recession). With the US heading toward another recession, the stars are aligning again. It is the perfect time to slip out the back door of the palace and start blaming the government for what's about to happen.

 

[Libertea Party]

Finally read through the whole thread.

Some people just want to be contrarian and an outsider no matter what the cost is. That's just who they are. They will never win. They love losing. It's a martyrs complex, self defeating, and a loser attitude.

We can lead the people. The people need leaders. Leaving the GOP is a fools errand at this time.

Agreed and I think this insight is related to the concept of "rational irrationality" (more that see below) and applies to most politics regardless of philosophy. Not sure how to address it except for have as many credible people that can make the case when our ideas are more appealing. Trump ran for President and didn't go anywhere in 2000 but because of the issues of 2016 he was more appealing and was able to win.

I think we keep our ideas in the mix and wait for a moment for objective conditions to improve. I realize there's a pro-government bias in politics but if the self identified democratic socialists can elect representatives (AOC) and Senators (Sanders) in a major party so can we.

A tangent (optional reading) on Rational Irrationality since I think it explains politics and potential strategy a lot.

"In typical large democracies, each individual voter has a very low probability of influencing the outcome of an election or determining whether a particular policy will be implemented. Thus, the expected cost of supporting an erroneous policy (obtained by multiplying the cost of the policy by the probability that the individual voter will have a decisive role in influencing the policy) is very low. The psychological benefits of supporting policies that feel good but are in fact harmful may be greater than these small expected costs. This creates a situation where voters may be rationally irrational for practical morale reasons."

Admittedly Stereotypical examples:
For Democrats: "I believe in equality and so should any decent person. Democrats support closing the gap by taxing the rich and I vote for them because I'm a good person and not evil"

For Republicans: "I believe in America and so should any decent person. Republicans support building a wall and I vote for them because I'm a good person and not evil"

For Libertarians: "I believe in liberty and so should any decent person. Libertarians support letting people consume what they want I vote for them because I'm a good person and not evil"

For Greens: "I believe in protecting the environment and so should any decent person. Greens support carbon taxes and I vote for them because I'm a good person and not evil"

etc

So I am still thinking about what the best approach to strategy is and i think it a part of it is doing a better job of appealing to peoples desire to do the right thing and show that being pro-liberty helps them accomplish what they really want in most cases. For example to prospective Democrat voters emphasizing that high taxes and a bad economy hurt lower income brackets more and that if they really wanted to help we should focus on growth.

 

[Champ]

Maybe this is not the thread to put down these thoughts, but what the heck.

Although I see a ton of disagreement and different strategies laid out in the thread, I find myself agreeing with just about everyone for different reasons.

The thing that matters the most to me, is putting in some level of effort and work into realizing these strategies and talking to people with some sense of passion or conviction about what you feel is going wrong right now with political parties, the country, and the world. Doing nothing and letting reality pass you by while other more ambitious folk decide your future for you and everyone you know will certainly not result in a desired outcome.

I'm talking to anyone and everyone that will listen (and those that will not) about all of the topics we see pop up here on a daily basis. All of my neighbors, locals, friends, and family are informed about this stuff, and many of them were not until I let them know. Social media is one avenue, you can reach a lot of people there and through videos etc, but there are a ton of people that do not use those platforms, you've gotta look local too. And yeah, you get some eye rolls, oh well, but it has opened up a lot of surprisingly productive conversations with people that I figured would despise talking about any of these topics. When I brought some of this stuff up circa 2007, people laughed, when I bring it up now, those same people seem engaged. People are fed up with what's happening in the government and the endless supply of lies we are being fed from all angles. It's not reflected on the msm news or other pre-approved forms of media, but I think the reality of the situation is starting to sink in.

This is not nearly enough to make a difference on it's own, not even close, but it's a start. If everyone is educating (unlearning) people around them, then I truly feel we will see things moving in a different direction soon and this pivot away from the status quo has surely already begun.

 

[TheCount]

I will report violations of the forum rules to the forum staff when they are egregious enough.

You should remember that.

The face of liberty.