This movement is at a significant crossroads

Which do you support?

  • Emerging 3rd Party

    Votes: 29 32.2%
  • incorporate ideas into existing party

    Votes: 61 67.8%

  • Total voters
    90
As I just posted, I feel that at this point, the movement is neither big enough nor powerful enough to do either of the things listed in the polls. We need to gather a larger group of congressman, senators, and other political figures and ultimately make our decision if we tell the GOP to get their **** together, or if we bail.

I'm not sure what the number might be, but it certainly has to improve from what we have now.
 
what about both. GOP definately needs an overhaul. And i would also like to see more choices.
 
neither option in the poll is particularly inviting, but its what we have at the moment. I would love a truly motivational and inspirational figure that could bring over new people to our side now that Ron Paul has retired...but I dont see anyone at the moment.

We need an Obama like charismatic figure to stand up and get this thing going. As previous posters alluded too, we need to build enough power and momentum before we can really attempt to take over the republicans or create an effective third party

What about a coalition of liberty Senate and House members? What if we got enough of them elected in 2014 to join Amash, Rand, etc. and become that voice, that leader?
 
What about a coalition of liberty Senate and House members? What if we got enough of them elected in 2014 to join Amash, Rand, etc. and become that voice, that leader?

That would certainly help, and obviously the more we have the more likely someone will step up to the plate. The question then becomes where is the breaking point, where is the point that the GOP cant ignore us anymore, and if they do, us threatening to leave will be a legitimate threat.
 
In my opinion, there has not been a politician mentioned on this board who could do half the job that Ron has already done. Ron's role as an inspirational figure and as an educator cause me to be optimistic that somewhere out there a great leader is taking shape right now. We haven't seen them yet. More importantly, we will know them immediately because we won't doubt them for a second when we do see them. If they are to possess the necessary qualities, they will take the lead of their own volition and they certainly won't need us, we will need them.
 
A lot of people are saying we can win through GOP precinct reorganization, state by state, county by county, precinct by precinct.

I don't see enough interest left over to actually do this.

I think the revolution is about to be dead.

How will it be dead with a bunch of new ron paul republicans who just won seats in congress?

The movement is just starting we have to keep electing liberty minded candidates into office.

Some people may not like Rand for 2016 but he is much better than the alternatives...
 
The Republican Party and the Democratic Party are corrupt vessels. They are tainted and will never be repaired, the party establishment and cronyism is ingrained in its very existence.
 
A lot of people are saying we can win through GOP precinct reorganization, state by state, county by county, precinct by precinct.

I don't see enough interest left over to actually do this.

I think the revolution is about to be dead.

It's going to be finished off when Rand calls for keeping 75+ military bases open around the world.
 
How about we focus on things outside of politics? We need to use our time and resources much more effectively going forward.
 
It's going to be finished off when Rand calls for keeping 75+ military bases open around the world.

Half-serious question: Have you ever made an optimistic or non-judgmental post? Just because you prefer a more "all or nothing" approach does not mean that quickly closing down 90% of bases and leaving the rest for another debate would somehow be the end of this movement...if that were even what Rand would propose. Is it? I don't know, and as far as I'm concerned, it sounds like you're just bringing up Rand out of the blue for the sole sake of bashing him with melodramatic pronouncements.

Yes, I'm familiar with Ron Paul's quote in your signature, and he's correct that the state has an intense hunger and tendency to steadily grow, but he didn't exactly rigorously back up his assertion that liberty "cannot" be regained incrementally. This mentality is extremely popular among hardcore libertarians, yet it's little more than unsubstantiated dogma, because showing the tendency of government to grow in the absence of an organized effort to scale it down to zero does not prove the impossibility of such an organized effort to work. (No, the establishment Republican Party's failure does not even remotely count, because they have no earnest libertarian or limited government ideology whatsoever.) This whole attitude is based not on logic or reason but on an emotional revulsion to the idea of incrementalism...even huge "leaps and bounds" incrementalism.

Make no mistake: I'm no advocate of "baby steps," and I prefer Ron's approach to Rand's, but I'm not going to go out of my way to crap all over someone if they [might] want to knock out the easy spending/bases/etc. first to get a foothold, either...IF that's even what Rand would propose. Moreover, I'm certainly not going to bash someone based on a mere guess of what he'd propose. Sheesh.
 
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Creating new significant party is nearly impossible in Europe.... In US it is even harder... and in Europe we dont have only 2 significant parties.

Be realistic. 3rd party got 0.1% chance.
 
Creating new significant party is nearly impossible in Europe.... In US it is even harder... and in Europe we dont have only 2 significant parties.

Be realistic. 3rd party got 0.1% chance.
That makes it sound more possible than it is. You can change voter psychology that has been ingrained in American society for centuries. Not in three lifetimes could you do this. Libertarians need to drop the pie-in-the-sky stuff and start living in reality.
 
Back to the subject of the thread: Third party advocates seem to focus almost exclusively on miraculously winning the Presidency if "just enough" people vote third party, either suddenly or after a gradual increase of credibility with each election. The results of Ross Perot's 1992 effort demonstrated that both scenarios are incredibly difficult to pull off: He was a billionaire with a mainstream ideology telling Americans exactly what they wanted to hear at a less politically polarized time, and he still didn't produce a miracle. Moreover, instead of third party credibility growing from year to year after that, it quickly tapered off again (and laws have since been instituted making it even more difficult to break in). On top of that, third parties are deeply fragmented, which further destroys their effectiveness; you can't even get the Libertarian Party and Constitution Party to cooperate unless Ron Paul is running for the Republican ticket. Even after recognizing the platform that would bring them together, they STILL don't have the sense or modesty to merge under it. ;)

However, those arguments sidestep the larger issue: Even if Perot had won in 1992, and even if he were actually Ron Paul wearing a mask, winning the Presidency is only enough to buy time. It is not enough for lasting political change, because for that, we need Congress as well. To take Congress, we need an enormous national infrastructure for simultaneously funding hundreds of races at once.

Simply destabilizing the two-party system with a third party Presidential win is not enough to achieve this:
After a sudden breakthrough, there would only be a small window of a "chaotic" political system where third parties had a chance, so it's unlikely that any would surpass either the Republican or Democratic Party in enough elections to become the new party of a two-party system...and make no mistake, the two-party system would reestablish itself within two election cycles or so, because that's how our "first-past-the-post" winner-take-all plurality voting system works. The reason it would be so difficult for one of the third parties to supplant either major party is because they'd all be scrambling and fighting each other for the same piece of pie during their brief window of opportunity...even similar ones like the LP and CP. If we created a new third party, that would simply be another to add to the mix, because the others have already proven they aren't willing to merge or go anywhere. The third party route is the road to completely splintering the liberty vote, as proven by the Barr/Baldwin/Write-in-Paul/Abstain campaigns in 2008 and the Johnson/Goode/Write-in-Paul/Abstain campaigns in 2012.

With plurality voting, splitting the vote doesn't exactly do much for us...and as much as that applies to Presidential races, it applies doubly to Congressional races: During the brief window of "third party opportunity" following a miraculous Presidential win, a single third party starting from an extremely limited funding base and infrastructure of nearly zero would need to win a huge number of Congressional seats immediately to even build the credibility to build the donor infrastructure for further wins in the future. (Otherwise, the system will settle again on the R's and D's.) This is a chicken-and-egg problem, because you can't win that many Congressional seats if you don't already have the donor infrastructure.

Under the current voting system, you need a huge preexisting donor infrastructure and mindshare to win a lot of simultaneous elections, and you need to have a proven track record of winning a lot of simultaneous elections to build up a huge donor system in the first place. This completely rules out third parties as a viable choice for taking Congress: The only way third parties will ever have a hope of taking power is if we change the voting system entirely...but we need to take power first to do that, so a third party-focused strategy is completely futile. Voting for third parties in general elections is still a great idea when there are no major party liberty candidates in the race, because after all, why not? Still, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to pursue third parties as our primary political strategy: Just because buying a lottery ticket for $1 gives you a chance to win does not mean it's a good idea to spent all your money on lottery tickets. There's a huge opportunity cost.

The strategy to take over the Republican Party has already shown gains in a very short amount of time with a very small number of backers, considering we've already taken over some state parties with activists alone. The rest of the state parties can be taken over the same way, and the RNC can be taken over the same way. The ONLY obstacle here great enough to cause failure is people's emotional unwillingness to have anything to do with the Republican Party...oh, they're too corrupt, too tainted, too dirty, blah blah, and we'll get the taint on us and end up just like them. (The latter is untrue, because unlike every other political movement ever, each of us have firm principles we're unwilling to compromise; we each differ on exactly what they are, but we present a stark contrast to every other political movement in the history of mankind, which has been based entirely on subjective utilitarianism in the pursuit of some abstract goal or religion.) If enough of us let that deter us, the strategy will fail...but at least there's a scenario where it can be successful, unlike the third party strategy.

Are there ifs, ands, and buts? Sure. Even after we take over, we'll have to fight the MSM's attempts to delegitimize the party and establishment attempts to create a new party to replace us...but even that will be a relative win over the current situation, because it has a better chance of giving other third parties an opening than any other strategy. If we instead pursue a third party political strategy from the outset, we'll get as far as the LP has gotten and continues to get...unless we split the third party vote up farther by creating a new party, in which case the additional fragmentation will cause us to come up even shorter. (Now, if the entire country collapses before we can stop it, THEN the party system could really be shaken up, but nobody can accurately predict what will happen at that point.)

Now, pursuing political action is the only way to actually change laws and policies: Agorism won't bring down the state, because an economy without famine is an economy that relies on large-scale capital goods to produce consumer goods, and those can't exactly be hidden from the IRS. The state will always be able to tax enough to exist and enact violence, so it cannot be ignored. However, there are a LOT of other things that need to be done aside from - that is in addition to, not instead of - political action:

We need to become influential voices in our communities and beyond. We need liberty teachers, professors, economists, journalists, talking heads, authors, artists, comics, TV/film directors/producers/writers, lawyers, and pastors. We need people to take on influential roles in their communities...but that said, a lot of community roles come back to government and politics: Sheriffs, county commissioners, prosecutors, school board members, etc...we can avoid these positions to avoid becoming corrupted by them, but that guarantees they'll be filled by total statists. Weighing exposure and influence and denying positions to statists over hazards of the job are difficult judgment calls to make on an individual basis. (Is none of that your calling? Become an entrepreneur and try to make it big, so you have the funds to spread influence that way. ;)) These are the ways we will convert the masses to a libertarian or Constitutionalist or anti-federalist ideology: Not through logical argumentation, but by demonstrating influence, popularity, and ubiquity.
 
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