thirty-thousand.org ... 435 can not faithfully represent 300,000,000.

I think another part of this equation is, your representative shouldn't be spending all their time in Washington D.C., they need to spend MORE time in their district talking to constituents. They're in D.C. all the time because they're working on too many f'ing laws and need to stop it!! By them being in D.C. all the time, it also makes them an easy target for lobbyists, since they're all there, ALL THE F'ING TIME!!!!


FF
 
... Why do we need any representatives? ... LET THE STATES GO
I suggest this thread be split between those who, like me, are committed to supporting the republican form of government and those who want to dissolve the federal government. When these two groups combine in one forum it's impossible to continue an intelligent discussion on this topic.

The folks who want to dissolve the federal government should start their own topic or forum (or those of us who want to preserve the republic for future generations need to go elsewhere).
 
I think another part of this equation is, your representative shouldn't be spending all their time in Washington D.C., they need to spend MORE time in their district talking to constituents. ...
You are exactly right. The Constitution was written decades before the invention of fancy new technology (like trains or the telegraph). In order for real communication to occur, people had to convene in one location.

Let's keep our representatives at home where we can keep an eye on them. The only travel that is really required is for committee meetings. If we had 6,000 Representatives (1:50,000) then a few hundred of them would serve on committees, and the rest can be at home to protect us from the federal government.

See Question 10: How do all those Representatives fit into one building?
(Hint: they don't.)
 
How about keeping a stable number of congressmen, but weight their votes according to the the # of people in their constituencies and base the constituencies on actual communities, like counties or something? The only flaw I see is the possibility of congressmen wrangling to get more people into their districts and wrangling for higher pop districts.

I registered an account just to reply to this.

I had a similar idea upon reading Thirty-Thousand.org, with an alteration. The alteration is this: The states are allowed to choose how many federal legislators they have, with the weight of the votes apportioned to the number of citizens in each district.

I think this would tend to states wanting more legislators (especially in small states), due to the increased likelihood of having representatives in more committee positions, etc.... It might also be mandated that the states would fund their representatives, and their representatives would meet in the building housing the state's legislature, when necessary.

I didn't particularly like the idea of 4 or 5 "federal cities" the thirty-thousand FAQ spoke of, especially as the increased infrastructure and federalization of existing (probably populated) land is unnecessary in this networked age. It's bad enough the people of D.C. don't have complete representation, it would suck to (possibly) do that to other people unnecessarily. At it's worst, maybe the members of a committee would have to be in the same location, all representatives wouldn't have to be.

Just now read the following comment :D
Let's keep our representatives at home where we can keep an eye on them. The only travel that is really required is for committee meetings. If we had 6,000 Representatives (1:50,000) then a few hundred of them would serve on committees, and the rest can be at home to protect us from the federal government.
 
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Neither repealing the 17th Amendment nor increasing the size of the house of reps can be done without getting rid of the Federal Reserve. I don't find it a coincidence that both the 16th amendment was passed and the House stopped growing around the same time the Federal Reserve came into power...
 
I had a similar idea upon reading Thirty-Thousand.org, with an alteration. The alteration is this: The states are allowed to choose how many federal legislators they have, with the weight of the votes apportioned to the number of citizens in each district.
I don't see where that would benefit the citizenry better than would allocating 6,000 Reps to the 50 states (rather than 435). Moreover, there are two fundamental problems with that approach. First, it could violate the one-person-one-vote principle even more than it is already (1P1V requires federal districts to be the same size population-wise). Second, that would require a major structural amendment to the Constitution to implement.

In contrast, the number of Representatives can be increased (from 435) without any amendment at all and it would bring us much closer to 1P1V. However, if we want to require the number of Reps to increase with the population, then that would necessitate an amendment. That was, in fact, the intended purpose of the very first amendment inscribed on our Bill of Rights (see: http://enlargethehouse.blogtownhall.com).


I didn't particularly like the idea of 4 or 5 "federal cities"...
I'm only trying to get people to think outside of the box. The point is, in this day and age, it is no longer necessary to assemble in one location. They don't assemble now, all at the same time, except for show (e.g., the State of the Union address). Perhaps they could be working out of expanded state house facilities, as you suggested.
 
It would reduce the amount of money required to run an effective campaign.

Not unless you get rid of the National committee loopholes...

the DNC spent 10's of millions on tv ads for U.S. representatives... how does your local good guy compete against a big wealth political establishment smearing the airwaves.

I think Bill McClintock (R-CA) brought this up... the mail-in votes are still being counted and a winner may not be known for weeks.


It's the Loopholes that the government parties design into legislation for them to use, yet look totally inconspicuous!

Very difficult to oppose this 2 party charade game over the people.
 
Site would be better called "WHY 435?"

30,000?

Why not 3,000 or 300,000 or 3 million or 30 million, etc.? :rolleyes:

Methinks you haven't actually visited the website... and/or have taken the site's name to mean something different than it does. Personally, I think a MUCH better name for the site would be "Why 435?"

Instead, he chose the 30,000 because that was the original number of citizens per representative... it is NOT the "number of REPRESENTATIVES" the site is proposing that we have NOW.

(In fact the site proposes a number of reps of approximately 6,000 [which would be six-thousand.org] -- to return us to a ratio of 1 rep per 50,000 [which would be fifty-thousand.org] -- and the reason behind that is so it would be in line with the TOP provision in the original proposed "Article the First" that was [sadly] not ratified.)

I like the website, and the basic concept, and agree with MANY of the proposals, the exception being the proposed number of 6,000 reps. While I agree with increasing the number (and that substantially) I do not think it is necessary to try returning SO DRAMATICALLY to a 1 per 50,000 ratio -- and indeed, I think the founders would have understood that such a large number was relatively unworkable; but they failed to comprehend the possibility of the extent and speed with which the population would grow.

Thus the original "proposal" was for the following:
Reps....PerPop....Total Population
~60.....30,000....~2,000,000 +
>100....40,000....~4,000,000 +
>200....50,000....~10,000,000 +
...and there the founders stopped, because I think they simply couldn't IMAGINE a country with a population greater than 10 million people! (In their defense, this WAS pre Louisiana Purchase and pre industrial revolution, heck, the entire population of England at the time was far less than ten million -- and since the founder envisaged an agrarian "farmer" society, they couldn't estimate the explosion of urban areas... even still, estimating a growth of 5x was a good try and demonstrated long-term thinking, just not exponential growth thinking!)

But they DID lay down a principle -- an equation for an increasing ratio -- and if we extrapolate on the "equation" that was inherently proposed, then with greater populations, it would look something like this:
Reps....PerPop....Total Population
~60.....30,000....~2,000,000 +
>100....40,000....~4,000,000 +
>200....50,000....~10,000,000 +
>300....60,000....~18,000,000 +
>400....70,000....~28,000,000 +
>500....80,000....~40,000,000 +
>600....90,000....~54,000,000 +
>700....100,000...~70,000,000 +
>800....110,000...~88,000,000 +
>900....120,000...~108,000,000 +
>1,000..130,000...~130,000,000 +
>1,100..140,000...~154,000,000 +
>1,200..150,000...~180,000,000 +
>1,300..160,000...~208,000,000 +
>1,400..170,000...~238,000,000 +
>1,500..180,000...~270,000,000 +
>1,600..190,000...~304,000,000 +

>1,700..200,000...~340,000,000 +
...etc
Thus, currently we would have between 1,500 and 1,600 Congressman -- or between 3 to 4 times as many as we have currently. (THAT would be possible -- in my state it would mean that instead of my congressman's "district" covering about 4 counties, there would be one congressman for each county).

How could they all "sit" together at one time?

I think by proposing ADDITIONAL "Federal Cities" -- i.e. that Washington D.C. does not need to be the ONLY place -- AND the use of modern communications technologies -- who says they all HAVE to be in one city (heck who says they have to TRAVEL at all... this isn't 1789... we have telephones and internet now)! Indeed, by expanding the number and SPREADING them around... think how more difficult it would be for lobbyists and "cartels" to form. Corrupting 1,600 people in four or five (or maybe even 10) locations would be a bit more difficult -- no, not impossible -- but definitely more expensive and difficult.

The OTHER place I think the website is wrong is in saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to get this to happen!

While he certainly understands the desire of those IN POWER to retain and enhance that power...

What he fails to contemplate is AMBITION.

Nearly every county supervisor aspires to become a state assemblyman, and every state assemblyman aspires to be a US Congressman (and nearly every Congressman aspires to be a Senator, and every Senator {even freshmen senators -- aka BHO} aspire to be President/Emperor.)

The point in effective political movement is not to deny the reality of human nature (especially vices), but to USE human nature to achieve a goal.

Thus, the effort to expand Congress would be best aimed at STATE LEGISLATURES -- where every assemblyman would easily be capable of imagining him or herself thus becoming a Federal Congressman -- especially in a scenario where the "bar" that needs to be jumped is significantly LOWER than it currently is.

And, interestingly enough -- the original proposed Congressional Apportionment Amendment has NO EXPIRATION... and if ratified by an additional 27 state legislatures (which are FULL of ambitious politicians) it would become law.

Now granted, if that OLD amendment were passed -- we would, in fact end up with about 6,000 Congressman. But THAT in and of itself... get just one or two legislatures to pass that amendment would probably be sufficient to SCARE the SH*T out of the current gang of 435 -- enough that they MIGHT be willing to contemplate writing and passing an alteranate "compromise" amendment -- one that would say, only double or triple the number of representatives (rather than multiply it by 14)

So it IS possible -- and immensely MORE possible than, say, the repeal of the 17th amendment.
 
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Not unless you get rid of the National committee loopholes...

the DNC spent 10's of millions on tv ads for U.S. representatives... how does your local good guy compete against a big wealth political establishment smearing the airwaves.
Hollywood, when districts are 50,000 people in size, how much money does a candidate need to raise? If my rep (in a district of 50,000) were not performing well, I could probably defeat him with no more expense than several pairs of walking shoes and several thousand photocopies (campaigning door to door). If my opponent somehow raised vast sums, to win in my little 50,000-person district, I could successfully make a campaign issue of that.

Small districts eliminate the primary need for the two-party duopoly. The oligarchy depends on the political parties' corporate oligopoly of mass media.
 
Hollywood, when districts are 50,000 people in size, how much money does a candidate need to raise? If my rep (in a district of 50,000) were not performing well, I could probably defeat him with no more expense than several pairs of walking shoes and several thousand photocopies (campaigning door to door). If my opponent somehow raised vast sums, to win in my little 50,000-person district, I could successfully make a campaign issue of that.

Small districts eliminate the primary need for the two-party duopoly. The oligarchy depends on the political parties' corporate oligopoly of mass media.

Actually, SMALL DISTRICTS (50,000 or even 200,000) would make TV commercials, and other forms of "mass marketing" to be INEFFECTIVE and very WASTEFUL (and in most areas, almost impossible).


When people run for County Supervisor and/or other "local" offices, they do NOT typically waste money on fancy-schmancy TV commercials.

The other thought is that if the number were increased substantially (even double or triple) then the chances of getting some third-party people elected would increase dramatically -- especially from rural areas.
 
Methinks you haven't actually visited the website... and/or have taken the site's name to mean something different than it does. Personally, I think a MUCH better name for the site would be "Why 435?"
WRellim, you've done a very good job of summarizing the issue.

I did think of "Why435" too, but then figured they would just raise it to 437 and then I would need to get an URL for every integer between 435 and whatever! Regarding "30,000", read this brief account of how George Washington introduced that minimum size into the Constitution:
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/pages/GeorgeWashington.htm

Later, in the first Congress, James Madison proposed changing 30,000 from the minimum size to the maximum district size (in the Constitution). That led to "Article the first", which you referenced in your post. The problem is that "Article the first" became corrupted in the joint committee; as a result, the version inscribed on the Bill of Rights contains a material defect that rendered it meaningless. It's a long story. Here is the short version of it:
http://enlargethehouse.blogtownhall.com

For a very detailed explanation of Article the first, with citations, please download this big PDF:
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/documents/QHA-04.pdf

The point is, it needs to be ratified as it was originally worded by the House (left side of graphic below) prior to be made defective in the Joint Committee (right side of graphic below).

A1_Before-After.png


The plot thickens.
 
Anyone know how much the average congressperson costs annually with staff, franking privileges and other perks included?
 
Anyone know how much the average congressperson costs annually with staff, franking privileges and other perks included?
This does not answer your question directly, but this gets to the points you are wanting to make:

Q7: Wouldn’t more Representatives mean a bigger government?
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/#Q7

Q8: Even with reduced federal expenditures, wouldn’t it be too costly to add all these Representatives?
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/#Q8

On top of that, their some of their benefits, especially their vesting in the pension, need to be scaled back to what would be offered by a typical large corporation. Their retirement perks are outrageous.
 
The OTHER Amendment from the original Bill of Rights WAS ratified in 1992!

VERY INTERESTING... the "other" one of the two remaining amendments from the original proposed TWELVE amendments in the "Bill of Rights" was "resurrected" by the efforts of ONE GUY back in 1982 and set on a path to ratification, which was achieved in 1992!

The first 6 states to ratify it did so within the 1789 to 1792 time frame.

Ohio ratified it in 1873 as a protest against a "Salary Grab Act" by Congress that year... and then it laid there...

And up until 1978, only 7 (or 8 if you count Kentucky) states had ratified it (for some unknown reason Wyoming ratified it in 1978 & then it was forgotten again...)

But this time only for another 4 years -- until Gregory Watson began his efforts in 1982.

End result -- by a letter writing campaign this amendment was ratified in 1992 and became officially known as the 27th Amendment.

How did this guy achive it?

[After getting a 'C' on a report because his teacher felt he "...had failed to make a convincing case that the amendment was still subject to being approved..."] Watson immediately set out to secure the amendment's incorporation into the Federal Constitution. Using a letter-writing campaign begun in early 1982 to strategically-targeted states, the reaction was swift. The first result was ratification by Maine lawmakers during April 1983, then came success in Colorado—where both houses of the Colorado General Assembly were controlled by Republicans—during April 1984. With each passing year, the legislatures of more and more states ratified the ancient proposal. On May 5, 1992, when lawmakers in Alabama became the 38th to approve it, the measure became the Constitution's 27th Amendment—there being 50 states in the Union at the time. The Archivist of the United States issued a proclamation to that effect on May 18, 1992. And on May 20, 1992, both houses of Congress adopted resolutions agreeing with the Archivist's conclusion.
In total, he needed to get an additional TWENTY NINE states (he THOUGHT it needed THIRTY Kentucky RE-ratified it in 1992) to ratify and make it law -- he actually succeeded in getting THIRTY-SEVEN states to ratify (or re-ratify if you count Kentucky).

The "bar" to getting the Congressional Apportionment Amendment ratified and made law is actually LOWER... because ELEVEN states already ratified it by 1792, only TWENTY SEVEN more states are needed to ratify this and make it law.

And Congress cannot take any LEGAL action to stop it... because the original proposal had NO expiration.

They can exert POLITICAL pressure... and do all kinds of other things... (including propose an amendment that is an "alternative" but they could no nothing "legal" to actually stop it from being ratified).


Hmmm... I wonder what Mr. Watson is up to these days? Think he's up for another round?
 
Anyone know how much the average congressperson costs annually with staff, franking privileges and other perks included?

SHIT... Congress itself is the LEAST of the expenses of the Federal Government Behemoth. The TINIEST department within the Executive Branch costs us FAR more than all of congress (Assembly, Senate, plus perks & retirees, etc) put together.

And if doubling, tripling or multiply by 14 would create gridlock then I'd be ALL for it.

Besides... if the number increased that much, you KNOW we'd finally have a chance to get some NON-professionals in there.

THIS could actually make their plotting BACKFIRE -- after all, had they just kept increasing the number slowly there would be ZERO opportunity for a BIG CHANGE.

And a BIG CHANGE is what ratification of this (or one like it) would cause.
 
WRellim, you've done a very good job of summarizing the issue.

I did think of "Why435" too, but then figured they would just raise it to 437 and then I would need to get an URL for every integer between 435 and whatever! Regarding "30,000", read this brief account of how George Washington introduced that minimum size into the Constitution:
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/pages/GeorgeWashington.htm

Later, in the first Congress, James Madison proposed changing 30,000 from the minimum size to the maximum district size (in the Constitution). That led to "Article the first", which you referenced in your post. The problem is that "Article the first" became corrupted in the joint committee; as a result, the version inscribed on the Bill of Rights contains a material defect that rendered it meaningless. It's a long story. Here is the short version of it:
http://enlargethehouse.blogtownhall.com

For a very detailed explanation of Article the first, with citations, please download this big PDF:
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/documents/QHA-04.pdf

The point is, it needs to be ratified as it was originally worded by the House (left side of graphic below) prior to be made defective in the Joint Committee (right side of graphic below).

A1_Before-After.png


The plot thickens.


Why435?

Is MUCH better from a "marketing" perspective... if forces people to ask the question... "Yeah, why are there EXACTLY 435 Congressmen?" which will then lead them to "discover" the chicanery at work.

In addition, "thirty-thousand" is too misleading -- people read that and think you are advocating 30,000 congressmen (yikes) -- and in fact you are not even advocating a rep for each 30,000 people, you are advocating one per 50,000 -- so it's confusing.

BTW, have you REALLY already gone through the legal work to start a full blown 501(c)3 for this?
 
... Congress itself is the LEAST of the expenses of the Federal Government Behemoth. The TINIEST department within the Executive Branch costs us FAR more than all of congress (Assembly, Senate, plus perks & retirees, etc) put together.
Exactly right. I'm trying to make that point here:
Q8: Even with reduced federal expenditures, wouldn’t it be too costly to add
all these Representatives? http://www.thirty-thousand.org/#Q8
 
Why435?

Is MUCH better from a "marketing" perspective... if forces people to ask the question... "Yeah, why are there EXACTLY 435 Congressmen?" which will then lead them to "discover" the chicanery at work.

In addition, "thirty-thousand" is too misleading -- people read that and think you are advocating 30,000 congressmen (yikes) -- and in fact you are not even advocating a rep for each 30,000 people, you are advocating one per 50,000 -- so it's confusing.

BTW, have you REALLY already gone through the legal work to start a full blown 501(c)3 for this?
I agree with all that. "Why 435?" is a better marketing question. That question can still be used to market. The good news is that if you Google "Why 435?" you get Thirty-Thousand.org at the top of the list.

Thirty-Thousand.org, Inc., is indeed a tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization.

Here is my personal page for "virtual networking" links:
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/pages/JEQuidam.htm
 
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