They say illegals take jobs Americans don't want - they LIE!

[torchbearer]

not advocating for anything but the freedom to earn a living and to not be exploited by your employer. If you are making less than $100k then minimum wages is all you can afford. The profit margins just aren't there. Some farmers are pulling in $300k a year while paying 3 to 5 illegals $7 an hour. To me this is exploitation.

There are benefits to being the owner and Im not advocating some sort of socialist utopia of we all get paid the same. But paying yourself $300k while hiring illegals $5 an hour because you dont want to pay some legal citizen $10 an hour is just screwed up. Greed is good, but in moderation. Greed brings about the entrepreneurial spirit. But to much greed screws yourself and the country as a whole in the long run. If everyone decided to pay crap wages where would the money come from to buy products from to keep the economy rolling? More credit bubbles?

i'd love to meet these "rich" farmers you are talking about. (you must be thinking of trent lot)
our family farm went out of business because we didn't use illegal labor. so go fuck yourself you stupid ignorant dip shit.
farmers aren't rich, and only those who farm 1000s of acres can even hope to make a decent living, using cheap labor.

have you ever thought about what happened to everyone's crops during katrina?
they lost them all. you spend $200,000 in production cost to generate an average of $100,000 net profit after crops are sold, but then next year a huricane comes through, you spend $200,000 in production to get zero back. you aren't back at even you in a deep fucking hole. every year requires capital to start the process over again. you lose your crops you are finished or you going into dept and roll the dice again.
that is the life of a farmer. don't see people jumping around for that fate.

 

[silverhandorder]

Farmers going away in America will simply confirm that government fucked them over. Taxes, regulations on labor and land hurt them. So in essence we can opt in for more government intervention or for eliminating it all. I find it hard to justify subsidies and tarifs.

I don't want to be dependent on Venezuela either.

 

[tjeffersonsghost]

i'd love to meet these "rich" farmers you are talking about. (you must be thinking of trent lot)
our family farm went out of business because we didn't use illegal labor. so go fuck yourself you stupid ignorant dip shit.
farmers aren't rich, and only those who farm 1000s of acres can even hope to make a decent living, using cheap labor.

have you ever thought about what happened to everyone's crops during katrina?
they lost them all. you spend $200,000 in production cost to generate an average of $100,000 net profit after crops are sold, but then next year a huricane comes through, you spend $200,000 in production to get zero back. you aren't back at even you in a deep fucking hole. every year requires capital to start the process over again. you lose your crops you are finished or you going into dept and roll the dice again.
that is the life of a farmer. don't see people jumping around for that fate.

go fuck myself? Ignorant dip shit? Really sounds like talk of a business owner

Where are all the rich farmers? All over. Between huge government subsidize and higher commodity prices farmers are loving life right now. I know 3 farmers personally who don't own thousands of acres and they pay American workers around $10 an hour. They still have room to pay themselves a little over $100k and live in beautiful houses in Iowa. Are there bad years? Yup but that is just like in any other industry out there so you'll get no tears from me.

As far as the downfall of the small farmer (300 or less acres) don't blame illegals for that. Blame the local and federal government for subsidizing huge farming conglomerates. Once again that is happening in every other industry so you will get no tears from me.

The fact is there are indeed farmers out there paying themselves big money while hiring illegals. There are also some farmers who could pay themselves a ton of money and hire illegals and they don't. You say make a decent living, define decent. As a business owner who makes a little over $100k per year I pay my employees around $30k. I could go hire some illegals and pay them $10k per year and pocket the rest which would push my income to over $200k. I'm happy making what I am making, I make a decent living and my employees dont have to be subsidized by welfare to make ends meet because I am paying them shit wages.

 

[Jeros]

In a certain light it is and I had a sneaking suspicion someone would jump at the opportunity to wave their hands ecstatically and point it out. Regulation of immigration definitely takes away freedom to do whatever you please, but it's an inherent aspect of having a border. I'm not sure how you can have both free immigration and a border. I realize it's a dirty word here, but regulation doesn't necessarily have to prevent an employer from hiring who they need.

If the state doesn't define those borders, the state/country on the other side will do it for you.

Other than the first sentence which is simply too generalized to mean much of anything, I don't disagree with what you're saying here.

You're arguing against government in general. It's a nice dream and I don't discourage you from exploring it - I may even share it in spirit. I'm just not in agreement that it's of any practical use to find a workable solution in our current situation.

It does sound like much of the disagreement revolves around the practicality of any certain policy. Those that advocate regulated migration say that because the government regulates so many other aspects of our lives, millions of legal immigrants will just make the situation that much worse. More welfare, more health care costs, more law enforcement and court costs and so on; this problem makes an already bad situation worse. I think this perspective fails to understand that immigration is only a problem because of socialism, so we are basically attempting to fix a problem caused by government by allowing the government more power over us. Free migration is good for markets and compatible with freedom. Without government interference, it would be self regulating. The government has indirectly tricked people into thinking that migration is the problem, and not government programs. Lets also not forget that every attempt to reduce the size of government since the creation of the united states has been an eventual failure. So any argument of impracticality is sort of baseless. Migration is a none issue, though the state loves it because those who ask for it grant the state more power and control.

I am not actually arguing against government in general. I am arguing against involuntary government in general. Wouldn't it be nice if you could opt out of the requirement to fund the Iraq war? That only those who wanted war would fund the war? Or if roads were covered by fees just like rails? If you don't use the road, you don't have to pay for it? If on a local level, you could sway just about any policy that might affect you? I don't think of any of these as impractical, and further, would argue that they are more practical than the alternative, which is command and control. I find it interesting that people so quickly dismiss ideas because they are not compatible with the current absolutely corrupt doomed to fail system. The current unsustainable course is that which is impractical. Luckily, even Ron Paul says that although he will try to slow the decline, Americans are not ready to truly fix the system so the collapse of it is a matter of time. Now would be a good time to determine what policies are compatible with morality, and relegalizing free migration and voluntary association would be a good first step. At the very least, concepts compatible with liberty should not be demonized, which some on this thread are attempting to do.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

The planet already is one. Borders are purely conceptual. They only exist on maps because we imagine them to.

So let's say that the world has fully transformed. There are no borders. People can move and work at will. Labor laws are essentially the same in the entire world. Tax laws are essentially the same in the entire world. Environmental laws are essentially the same in the entire world.

Where does the new supply of cheap labor come from? We keep hearing that a continuous and increasing stream of cheaper labor is the only way for certain businesses or even the entire economy to function. Now that the planet has "stabilized", where do you get the new, cheaper labor?

What you just said is that they're running an inefficient, technology-challenged business, kept alive only by illegal labor and import tariffs, because there's no signficant demand for their product.

You've just illustrated why they shouldn't even be in business, not why they deserve to hire illegal labor.

That sounds like the answer.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

not advocating for anything but the freedom to earn a living and to not be exploited by your employer. If you are making less than $100k then minimum wages is all you can afford. The profit margins just aren't there. Some farmers are pulling in $300k a year while paying 3 to 5 illegals $7 an hour. To me this is exploitation.

There are benefits to being the owner and Im not advocating some sort of socialist utopia of we all get paid the same. But paying yourself $300k while hiring illegals $5 an hour because you dont want to pay some legal citizen $10 an hour is just screwed up. Greed is good, but in moderation. Greed brings about the entrepreneurial spirit. But to much greed screws yourself and the country as a whole in the long run. If everyone decided to pay crap wages where would the money come from to buy products from to keep the economy rolling? More credit bubbles?

Forget farming. How about one of the most powerful advocates for immigration: Bill Gates. Now your scenario if very appropriate. Bill was on American Idol last week asking for donations to his "One" fund so that he can lobby for more government spending. You give him money, he doesn't even use it for charity, he uses it to lobby government to spend more taxpayer money! He certainly shares the "greed is good" motto. Unfortunately, he's also an Oligarchist and a big government socialist.

i'd love to meet these "rich" farmers you are talking about. (you must be thinking of trent lot)

Farming is a tough business, there's no doubt about it. Many of us had ancestors that were farmers, but the old farms are long gone, and everyone works in other areas now. There are some rich farmers and farming corporations though. They bought up all the smaller family farms. ADM isn't hurting for money.

 

[dwdollar]

go fuck myself? Ignorant dip shit? Really sounds like talk of a business owner

Where are all the rich farmers? All over. Between huge government subsidize and higher commodity prices farmers are loving life right now. I know 3 farmers personally who don't own thousands of acres and they pay American workers around $10 an hour. They still have room to pay themselves a little over $100k and live in beautiful houses in Iowa. Are there bad years? Yup but that is just like in any other industry out there so you'll get no tears from me.

As far as the downfall of the small farmer (300 or less acres) don't blame illegals for that. Blame the local and federal government for subsidizing huge farming conglomerates. Once again that is happening in every other industry so you will get no tears from me.

The fact is there are indeed farmers out there paying themselves big money while hiring illegals. There are also some farmers who could pay themselves a ton of money and hire illegals and they don't. You say make a decent living, define decent. As a business owner who makes a little over $100k per year I pay my employees around $30k. I could go hire some illegals and pay them $10k per year and pocket the rest which would push my income to over $200k. I'm happy making what I am making, I make a decent living and my employees dont have to be subsidized by welfare to make ends meet because I am paying them shit wages.

You shouldn't base your opinion on 3 people. 95% of farmers are dirt poor.

This is so f*cking ridiculous. Are we really going to argue about farm subsidizes and the fabled "rich farmer" when the banks are looting us for trillions. Give me a f*cking break. It seems to me some of you are just picking on easy targets, because you don't have the guts to look your banker in the eye and say what you really want to say.

 

[Jeros]

So let's say that the world has fully transformed. There are no borders. People can move and work at will. Labor laws are essentially the same in the entire world. Tax laws are essentially the same in the entire world. Environmental laws are essentially the same in the entire world.

Where does the new supply of cheap labor come from? We keep hearing that a continuous and increasing stream of cheaper labor is the only way for certain businesses or even the entire economy to function. Now that the planet has "stabilized", where do you get the new, cheaper labor?



That sounds like the answer.

That's sort of a short sighted question and answer. Economies balance, the entrepreneurial spirit will even partially compensate for the mistakes of the economic managers you seem to trust. The world economy would also balance if we deported all immigrants who did not get the permission of our caretakers, but there will be immediate and long term consequences that have a net negative impact on output. Economic efficiency is inversely proportional to central economic management. What you call "illegal immigration" benefits immigrants and long term residents.

I am not arguing in favor of cheap labor, I am arguing in favor of free labor. Are you arguing that free labor is a detriment to prosperity? That we need to control human movement to become more prosperous? I think certain austrian economists would disagree with you.

 

[Danke]

You shouldn't base your opinion on 3 people. 95% of farmers are dirt poor.

Say what?

Not up here in the Midwest.

 

[dwdollar]

Say what?

Not up here in the Midwest.

Yep it's true. Maybe "dirt" was the wrong word to use, as it gives the image of some poor barefoot from the Oklahoma dustbowl. Those new tractors and trucks you see farmers driving around aren't owned by them. They're either leased from a dealer or part of a hopelessly large farm loan that will never be paid up. They need that new equipment in order to compete. If they don't have the latest equipment, they're out of business. The reasons for this predicament are too numerous to mention, just pick a topic on this forum.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

That's sort of a short sighted question and answer. Economies balance, the entrepreneurial spirit will even partially compensate for the mistakes of the economic managers you seem to trust. The world economy would also balance if we deported all immigrants who did not get the permission of our caretakers, but there will be immediate and long term consequences that have a net negative impact on output. Economic efficiency is inversely proportional to central economic management. What you call "illegal immigration" benefits immigrants and long term residents.

I am not arguing in favor of cheap labor, I am arguing in favor of free labor. Are you arguing that free labor is a detriment to prosperity? That we need to control human movement to become more prosperous? I think certain austrian economists would disagree with you.

Nice dodge. What's short sighted about a scenario that represents the desired endgame of world-wide open borders? That is a long way off. Of course economies balance. That's why I used the word "stabilized". Where does the constant stream of cheaper labor (that many say is necessary) come from once the end-game is established?

Don't try to put words in my mouth. I don't trust any economic managers.

 

[Inflation]

The subtle, eternal self, in Mother-Energy samadhi

The planet already is one. Borders are purely conceptual. They only exist on maps because we imagine them to. Legal enforceable national borders are the result of tyranny. Their practical existence rest on the premise that all land is owned by the government. The only ethical borders are those surrounding private property, or those surrounding collective property where agency is voluntarily granted by all contractual stakeholders.

It's like. All of the universe is a continuous field. Separateness is an illusion.

There has never been an object. If you see the Buddah, kill him.

Wow, man. We all just, like, need to come together as ONE.

Who cares about illusions like borders, politics, and death? I'd rather embrace New Age nihilism and purge my brain of all concepts.

Dude, the answer to everything is KOSMIK UNITY!!!11ONE

IT'S ALL ONE MAN!!!​

/Anarchist Lobotomy

 

[Jeros]

Nice dodge. What's short sighted about a scenario that represents the desired endgame of world-wide open borders? That is a long way off. Of course economies balance. That's why I used the word "stabilized". Where does the constant stream of cheaper labor (that many say is necessary) come from once the end-game is established?

Don't try to put words in my mouth. I don't trust any economic managers.

I didn't dodge at all. It is very very simple. Let me explain.

1. You support centralized management of human migration for economic ends. How is that putting words in your mouth? You obviously trust economic managers.

2. It is shortsighted to believe that peaceful immigration is illegal. It is shortsighted to believe deporting "illegal" immigrants will produce an economic benefit.

And here you go again bringing up the subject of cheap labor. I am not defending cheap labor. Like I already said, I am defending free labor (free from management). Now please answer my question, do you believe free labor is detrimental to economic prosperity?

 

[Jeros]

IT'S ALL ONE MAN!!!

/Anarchist Lobotomy

If you are unable to debate, denigrate instead.

You quoted a technical logical straightforward portion of my argument and associated it with abstract concepts more comparable with imaginary borders than social philosophy.

 

[The Patriot]

YouTube - south park-they took our jobs!!!

Looks like they got the jobs back. The funny thing is, this bill changes nothing. Arizona police aren't doing anything differently. The only difference now is that cops can arrest people for being illegal as opposed to just detaining them and moving them into the Federal Custody. Obama and the MSM, indirectly and unintentionally actually did the right thing. They are trying to hype it up to rally support for Amnesty, but it backfired because Americans want to deport illegals and now the illegals are s*******g their pants. They hyped up this bill so much and scared the hell out of the illegals, now they are fleeing the state. Hopefully more states do this, the media hypes it up, and all the illegals run scared out of the country.

 

[Inflation]

Breaking News: Satire is now a form of argument.

If you are unable to debate, denigrate instead.

You quoted a technical logical straightforward portion of my argument and associated it with abstract concepts more comparable with imaginary borders than social philosophy.

All is One, therefore America is Mexico? I don't think so!

Logical debate is only one form of argument.

Have you never studied rhetoric?

My satirical send-up of your far-left lovey-dovey borders critique was on point.

Instead of LOGICALLY EXPLAINING why your open-borders fantasy world matters any more than the rest of the Neo-Marxist New Age nonsense, you whine about denigration. Poor you, nobody cares about your Ever-So Important Critical Theory.

This is a trippy fractal, therefore your "technical logical straightforward" is invalid.

I know, I know. Drawing borders on Mother Gaia is violent and violates our freedom of movement.

We get it, so save it for your La Raza seminar at The Aspen Institute.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I didn't dodge at all. It is very very simple. Let me explain.

1. You support centralized management of human migration for economic ends. How is that putting words in your mouth? You obviously trust economic managers.

My scenario didn't have borders.

If you want to come back to reality, we can talk about that too. As long as labor laws, environmental laws, tax laws, entitlement laws are different in all nations, then borders are about a lot more than just people moving around. There are a ton of "imaginary" laws that go along with those "imaginary" borders. Eliminate all the inconsistencies first, then we can talk. And as for the US, we pretty much ignore all immigration law anyway, so open borders are the current default.

2. It is shortsighted to believe that peaceful immigration is illegal. It is shortsighted to believe deporting "illegal" immigrants will produce an economic benefit.

My question was about a scenario where borders do not exist. It had nothing to do with immigration, legal or illegal.

And here you go again bringing up the subject of cheap labor. I am not defending cheap labor.

The number one reason that immigration law is ignored in the US, and that we have open-borders by default is cheap labor. There are also other reasons, but cheap labor is top of the list. You may not care about cheap labor, but your powerful allies do. Go talk to Bill Gates about his global socialist utopia, where enlightened masters such he and Alan Greenspan secretly centrally plan the economy (and everything else).

 

[The Patriot]

...

 

[The Patriot]

white people won't do the hard work in the sun. unless you want to being back slavery theres no alternative but to hire illegal immigrants

It is total nonsense Americans won't do construction jobs(only jobs illegals supposedly will do). They are just being priced out by cheap foreign labor. My best friend(White American Citizen) is taking a Construction job for the summer for above minimum wage. Illegals take jobs teenagers and low skilled low income citizens should be taking. Only 3% of illegals work in the farming industry, so it is a misnomer that they are only taking farming jobs.

 

[Inflation]

Breaking News: Satire is now a form of argument.

If you are unable to debate, denigrate instead.

You quoted a technical logical straightforward portion of my argument and associated it with abstract concepts more comparable with imaginary borders than social philosophy.

All is One, therefore America is Mexico? I don't think so!

Logical debate is only one form of argument.

Have you never studied rhetoric?

My satirical send-up of your far-left lovey-dovey borders critique was on point.

Instead of LOGICALLY EXPLAINING why your open-borders fantasy world matters any more than the rest of the Neo-Marxist New Age nonsense, you whine about denigration. Poor you, nobody cares about your Ever-So Important Critical Theory.

This is a trippy fractal, therefore your "technical logical straightforward" is invalid.

I know, I know. Drawing borders on Mother Gaia is violent and violates our freedom of movement.

We get it, so save it for your La Raza seminar at The Aspen Institute.