They say illegals take jobs Americans don't want - they LIE!

[Brian4Liberty]

I have worked for 6 dollars an hour washing dishes at a restaurant.

I did it for $2.25 an hour. :o

 

[ClayTrainor]

You don't think it's possible to get the same labor force by way of legal immigration?

What do you mean by legal?

 

[Depressed Liberator]

dey turk er jerbs

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Slavery used to be an important part of many business models...

 

[lester1/2jr]

why would you want them to come here legally? then they'd be entitled to social security!! illegal immigration is the best of both worlds

 

[ClayTrainor]

why would you want them to come here legally? then they'd be entitled to social security!! illegal immigration is the best of both worlds

Wow, that's actually a really great point... Thanks!

 

[Jeros]

coming from a farm community. most of the farmers who owned the land were white, but finding labor at the worth of the job was very hard.
minimum wage laws may have something to do with it, but some jobs just aren't worth minimum wage.

i invite lynn to come work a mexican's job on the farm. it will require her to leave her family for 9 months, live in a shack, eat lots of beans and rice. work from sun up to sun down in louisiana summer. The local farmer will be gracious enough to give her $5/hr for her labor and she can feel smug to know that an illegal didn't take that job from her.

but...but...our jobs! Damn your logic!!!

 

[Jeros]

You don't think it's possible to get the same labor force by way of legal immigration?

All immigration that doesn't involve trespass is legal. It is the anti immigration laws that are illegal, unless you believe the government owns all land. If that is the premise you are operating from, then your argument would be consistent. You should therefor ask yourself, does the government own all land?

 

[puppetmaster]

The fact of the matter is ALL people will, and do work for food!

Answer me this: what good is a border if we don't enforce immigration laws?
Do so called real libertarians want no borders?....one country one planet?

 

[ItsTime]

coming from a farm community. most of the farmers who owned the land were white, but finding labor at the worth of the job was very hard.
minimum wage laws may have something to do with it, but some jobs just aren't worth minimum wage.

i invite lynn to come work a mexican's job on the farm. it will require her to leave her family for 9 months, live in a shack, eat lots of beans and rice. work from sun up to sun down in louisiana summer. The local farmer will be gracious enough to give her $5/hr for her labor and she can feel smug to know that an illegal didn't take that job from her.

So I guess it is true, people in the south are lazier than the people in the north

 

[torchbearer]

So I guess it is true, people in the south are lazier than the people in the north

welfare is king.

 

[foofighter20x]

It's all about wages.

Exactly. The illegals are willing to do the same work for less. I think the real objection amounts to jealousy. Sure, illegal aliens get benefits they don't pay for, but they have a good incentive not to pay. For us, paying avoids greater consequences in the future. For illegals, not paying keeps them from exposure. Minus the new exception of AZ, illegals can get away with so much more than citizens.

It's not just the wages. It's the expense of employment incurred too.

When you hire illegals, you save on wages, but you also save on the expense of complying with OSHA. Because who are the legals going to complain to if they get injured on the job? The government?

 

[Lord Xar]

see post 12 for personal testimony.

LOL. Dude. I have personal experience too and my experience tells me you are an apologist with an agenda.

When validating the "illegals" being here, you use the free market to justify their need. When the shadow of them not being here, the free market argument is never part of the equation. No "americans will fill the void" etc.. argument - nothing of the sort. Instead we get tales of "your" experience validating the lazy american stigma and why illegals are needed.

Try not to be so obvious in your open border apologist agenda. It is rather discouraging to know another libertarian promoting the globalist goal is hiding behind "Liberty" to further the collapse.

 

[Marenco]

The fact of the matter is ALL people will, and do work for food!

Answer me this: what good is a border if we don't enforce immigration laws?
Do so called real libertarians want no borders?....one country one planet?

 

[Jeros]

The fact of the matter is ALL people will, and do work for food!

Answer me this: what good is a border if we don't enforce immigration laws?
Do so called real libertarians want no borders?....one country one planet?

You answered your own question. Good job.

The planet already is one. Borders are purely conceptual. They only exist on maps because we imagine them to. Legal enforceable national borders are the result of tyranny. Their practical existence rest on the premise that all land is owned by the government. The only ethical borders are those surrounding private property, or those surrounding collective property where agency is voluntarily granted by all contractual stakeholders.

 

[Jeros]

LOL. Dude. I have personal experience too and my experience tells me you are an apologist with an agenda.

When validating the "illegals" being here, you use the free market to justify their need. When the shadow of them not being here, the free market argument is never part of the equation. No "americans will fill the void" etc.. argument - nothing of the sort. Instead we get tales of "your" experience validating the lazy american stigma and why illegals are needed.

Try not to be so obvious in your open border apologist agenda. It is rather discouraging to know another libertarian promoting the globalist goal is hiding behind "Liberty" to further the collapse.

hahaha! So you want him to be secretive about his open borders agenda??? Are you promoting the stigma of the word agenda? Doesn't everybody have an agenda? Is liberty not a credible concept to hide behind? Is being an apologist of liberty a bad thing? Are you promoting the stigma of the word apologist? hahaha! Give me a break. Think before you type please.

Your argument more or less boils down to less liberty = more liberty. Orwell would be proud.

 

[jbuttell]

coming from a farm community. most of the farmers who owned the land were white, but finding labor at the worth of the job was very hard.
minimum wage laws may have something to do with it, but some jobs just aren't worth minimum wage.

i invite lynn to come work a mexican's job on the farm. it will require her to leave her family for 9 months, live in a shack, eat lots of beans and rice. work from sun up to sun down in louisiana summer. The local farmer will be gracious enough to give her $5/hr for her labor and she can feel smug to know that an illegal didn't take that job from her.

That would make perfect sense, assuming it didn't factor some very important factors. However I see it a bit differently.

If the illegal labor wasn't available, you'd initially have a lot of vacant farm jobs. The cost of domestically produced food would rise dramatically, only mildly suppressed by imported good goods from other nations. For domestic farms to compete, a combination of higher wages and/or progressive agriculture technique would have to be implemented.

I agree with the first post, it's a lie that legal residents, regardless of ethnicity and free from government obstruction can't or won't produce what they need to survive.

Perhaps as a side effect, people would also be less wasteful as well... I'd imagine McDonalds, BK etc wouldn't be so quick to sell volume over quality with such an unnaturally cheap food supply.

 

[torchbearer]

That would make perfect sense, assuming it didn't factor some very important factors. However I see it a bit differently.

If the illegal labor wasn't available, you'd initially have a lot of vacant farm jobs. The cost of domestically produced food would rise dramatically, only mildly suppressed by imported good goods from other nations. For domestic farms to compete, a combination of higher wages and/or progressive agriculture technique would have to be implemented.

I agree with the first post, it's a lie that legal residents, regardless of ethnicity and free from government obstruction can't or won't produce what they need to survive.

you don't know much about the farm market. farmers have to compete against world prices. which are low. those jobs can't earn any more pay unless you had high tariffs to artificially increase market price in the states. then you could pay domestic labor more than they get on their welfare checks. and it will have to be a lot more to do a job as shitty as tending/harvesting crops.

 

[Free Moral Agent]

One thing is for sure, we are paying for anchor babies to take jobs Americans want
see http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=224183

 

[jbuttell]

you don't know much about the farm market. farmers have to compete against world prices. which are low. those jobs can't earn any more pay unless you had high tariffs to artificially increase market price in the states. then you could pay domestic labor more than they get on their welfare checks. and it will have to be a lot more to do a job as shitty as tending/harvesting crops.

I'm well aware of world markets. Rather than just saying I'm wrong, what point do you disagree with, specifically? Keep in mind, the volume of food that the US produces is not a drop in a bucket... what the US produces most definitely affect the world prices.

Are you saying that if illegals weren't undercutting the market, prices would not rise? In this scenario, I believe a couple things might happen. Either the farm goes out of business since it can't produce, or it increases wages to attract workers.

I would argue that an employer's motivation for paying higher wages has more to do with the availability of workers, than the chance that they might have tariffs available to compensate.

If the people here can't afford to pay for the higher priced domestic product, their needs will be met with foreign.