There's no unlimited right to bear arms

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There's no unlimited right to bear arms

Op-Ed LA Times


Even Justice Antonin Scalia, whose opinion in Heller is a gun rights landmark, had to agree with 2nd Amendment framer James Madison that the right to bear arms has limits.


September 08, 2013|By Joseph J. Ellis



The opinion that the Bill of Rights supports and the high court acknowledges… (David Gothard / For The Times )



There is an opinion abroad in the land that the right to bear arms is unlimited, an absolute right, like the right to vote or the right to a fair trial.


This heartfelt conviction has surfaced lately in state legislation that attempts to nullify federal gun regulations. For the nullifiers, and many others, the broadest possible right to bear arms is purportedly enshrined in the 2nd Amendment and recognized in the Supreme Court case Heller vs. District of Columbia.


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And yet, no matter how prevalent or fervently held, the opinion that the Bill of Rights supports and the high court acknowledges an absolute right to gun ownership is just plain wrong.


The language of the 2nd Amendment is quite clear: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." As the minority in the Heller decision argued, and more than a century of judicial precedent at the federal level established, the right to bear arms was not an inherent right of citizenship but rather

a right that derived from service in the militia.



The historical context in which these words were crafted clarifies what was in James Madison's mind when he wrote them. In 1787-88, seven of the states that ratified the proposed Constitution did so on the condition that Congress give consideration to adding several amendments if and when it went into effect. These states proposed 124 amendments, none of which mentioned the right to bear arms but several of which mentioned the fear of a standing army.


When Madison sat down to write what became the Bill of Rights in the summer of 1789, those 124 proposed amendments served as the basis for his deliberations. He distilled from them an essence of 12 amendments, subsequently reduced by the states to 10. The 2nd Amendment represented Madison's attempt to respond to the fears of a standing army by assuring that national defense would reside in the states and in militias, not at the federal level in a professional army. The right to bear arms derived from the need to assure that state militia could perform its essential mission.


All this was what constitutional scholars call "settled law" until Heller, in which the high court ruled that the right to bear arms, despite the language of the 2nd Amendment and the historical context of its creation, existed independent of service in the militia. Justice Antonin Scalia's majority opinion is a tour de force of legalistic legerdemain, a lengthy journey through English common law, colonial charters, state constitutions and obscure 19th century court cases. Given Scalia's judicial philosophy as an "originalist" — meaning he believes his opinions should be guided by the original intent of the framers — his failure to assess Madison's motives in drafting the 2nd Amendment is strange, much like a devout Christian explaining his faith without mentioning Jesus.


But even Scalia, fully aware of the legal precedents he was overturning, saw fit to insert the following caveats near the end of his opinion:


"Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited…. Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on long-standing prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."



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These caveats create a crack through which significant gun control legislation might flow. Indeed, expanded background checks and limits on automatic weapons, the key provisions in the post-Sandy Hook gun legislation debated (and defeated) by Congress earlier this year, fit comfortably within this space.


But gun control advocates need to be realistic. The Heller decision, no matter how misguided, is itself "settled law," and the current composition of the Supreme Court will defeat any challenge to its sweeping, if limited, mandate. In addition, Congress is demonstrably hogtied by the National Rifle Assn., and even though many states (Colorado, Connecticut and New York among them) have tightened gun ownership laws since the massacres in Newtown, Aurora and Tucson, another half a dozen are trying the nullification gambit.


Given all this, the only alternative is to go back to "the people" themselves, where there remains good reason to believe a clear majority wants sensible reform at odds with the agenda of the NRA and the nullifiers. Remember: As 2013 began, an astonishing 89% of voters, including 75% of NRA members, were in favor of expanded background checks, and sizable majorities favored a ban on sales of semiautomatic weapons. Months later, polls still find most Americans are in favor of checks, "assault rifle" bans and restrictions on who is allowed to purchase guns.

The terms of a national discussion would no doubt include the gun violence tragedies we've faced, but it should also focus on the legal core of the gun rights issue: the 2nd Amendment and the Heller decision. These two tools, so often used to fight gun control, can and should be used to affect reasonable reform.
The intent of the founders needs to be heard and understood. The men who hammered out the Constitution, argued for its ratification and underlined our liberties with the Bill of Rights, would urge us to think about the issue this way: How do we balance the right to bear arms against the collective security of the American people?




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Framed in this fashion, we can all come together as fellow citizens to discuss in a sensible rather than strident tone where the line needs to be drawn between our rights and our responsibilities.


All that's required is that we channel our inner James Madisons, and even our inner Scalias. There is no unlimited right to bear arms — on that these two men agree, and so should we.


Joseph J. Ellis is the author of "Founding Brothers" and, most recently, "Revolutionary Summer."
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/08/opinion/la-oe-ellis-gun-control-nullification-20130908


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Thomas Jefferson “No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”
 
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Yup... same losing argument. They come to court every time with that argument - I'm hoping they continue.

Repetition, wailing, and gnashing of teeth - I guess it must be hell for these guys.
 
From the Militia Act of 1792:

"And whereas sundry corps of artillery, cavalry and infantry now exist in several of the said states, which by the laws, customs, or usages thereof, have not been incorporated with, or subject to the general regulation of the militia.

XI. Be it enacted, That such corps retain their accustomed privileges subject, nevertheless, to all other duties required by this Act, in like manner with the other militias."
 
We are all the militia and are subsequently responsible for national security. The State never issued small arms to militia members... they had to provide their own. You first have to own weapons in order to use them in a militia. Having an armed populace which could be called into a regulated militia was advantageous.
 
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We are all the militia and are subsequently responsible for national security. The State never issued small arms to militia members... they had to provide their own. You first have to own weapons in order to use them in a militia. Having an armed populace which could be called into a regulated militia was advantageous. expected.
FTFY
 
The constitution provides, at least, that the public should have enough "arms" to overcome a "military force", and that any attempt to deprive the public of such arms would amount to a "breakdown in the constitutional order", justifying armed resistance:

SCOTUS said:
During the 1788 ratification debates, ... It was understood across the political spectrum that the right helped to secure the ideal of a citizen militia, which might be necessary to oppose an oppressive military force if the constitutional order broke down.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2739870581644084946
 
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James Madison argument against the idea that the Federal government could overpower the states:

James Madison said:
The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.
 
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Anyone know off the top of their head which of the Federalist Papers goes into the 2nd. Amendment?
 
My favorite anti-second amendment argument: "Citizens with rifles can never stand up to the vast powers of the Federal army. So we shouldn't even think about trying to resist tyranny and should just totally disarm ourselves now."
 
Anyone know off the top of their head which of the Federalist Papers goes into the 2nd. Amendment?

I don't imagine any of them cover the 2nd Amendment. The Federalists advocated against a Bill of Rights.

Nevertheless, they do cover the base issue:

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.
-- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
--James Madison, The Federalist Papers, No. 46

" ... but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights ..."
-- Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist 29

The Antifederalist Papers

http://www.barefootsworld.net/antifederalist.html

don't really address the subject at all. If you read them in context they work from a presumption that the right to keep and bear arms could never be infringed in America. So you have BOTH opposing factions, really, supremely confident that Americans would, and should be able to freely bear arms in perpetuity.
 
I don't understand why people can't understand basic English and logic.

Let's pretend the 2nd amendment says:

"A nice silver colored fork, being necessary to enjoy the consumption of a well cooked meal, the right of the people to keep and bear forks shall not be infringed."

Tyrannical dictator says, "You can only have silver colored forks, and they must remain put away at all times unless you are about to eat a cooked meal!!"

Tyrannical dictator doesn't understand english.

The law says the right to keep and bear forks cannot be infringed, PERIOD. The beginning is a justification of why the govt. CANNOT INFRINGE ON PEOPLE'S RIGHTS TO KEEP AND BEAR FORKS.

If somebody has a pink fork and they are eating a meal that wasn't cooked, you still cannot infringe on their right to keep and bear forks!! PERIOD! That is exactly what the sentence says, in english.
 
I found this guy's contact e-mail, I am e-mailing him an updated version of the post above^

This is your article, correct?

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/08/opinion/la-oe-ellis-gun-control-nullification-20130908

Let's pretend the 2nd amendment says:

"A nice silver colored fork, being necessary to enjoy the consumption of a well cooked meal, the right of the people to keep and bear forks shall not be infringed."

Tyrannical dictator says, "You can only have silver colored forks, and they must remain put away at all times unless you are about to eat a cooked meal!!"

Tyrannical dictator doesn't understand English or logic.

The law says the right to keep and bear forks cannot be infringed, PERIOD. The beginning is a justification of why the govt. CANNOT INFRINGE ON PEOPLE'S RIGHTS TO KEEP AND BEAR FORKS.

If somebody has a pink fork and they are eating a meal that wasn't cooked, you still cannot infringe on their right to keep and bear forks!! PERIOD! That is exactly what the sentence says, in English.

So it is not a criteria for when it can be enforced, it is simply a justification. If it was a criteria, it would say something like, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms within the confines of the state militia shall not be infringed." Do you see the difference?

“No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” -Thomas Jefferson



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P.S. I also have a lot of philosophical reasons why gun control = violence itself and how peace is attained through freedom and being able to protect ones self. For example, think about how a frail weak woman would not be able to protect herself from a large adult male attacker - yet give this woman a gun and suddenly she has the ability to thwart the attacker. By disarming citizens you create the disparity between people where guns create more equality in our ability to protect ourselves and our property. Where guns are illegal, crime is higher. Criminals don't follow the law, so if you make guns illegal the only people who you are disarming are law abiding citizens. Criminals know this and exploit it. Crime rates rise in places where there is strict gun control.

If you want to talk about mass shootings, well that is a whole other can of worms. First I will ask for you to name a single mass shooter in the last 12 years who was NOT on or coming off of an SSRI or similar type of medication. Then I would ask you why witnesses said they saw two shooters/smoke grenade throwers in Aurora, why they found two gas masks in the theater and why the perp was talking to people on the phone and opening the back door of the theater and leaving before the movie (in my estimation, never to return.. I believe he was drugged and thrown out back, professionals came in and staged the attack to trick people like you into creating propaganda articles in newspapers to trick the American people into disarming..then the police arrived and picked up a VERY drugged and only semi-conscious patsy to pin it on).
 
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Joseph J. Ellis said:
There is an opinion abroad in the land that the right to bear arms is unlimited, an absolute right, like the right to vote or the right to a fair trial.

DA FUQ?
 
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