The War on Religion

[KingNothing]

Correct, because God is personal and infinite.

I've found him to be quite impersonal and kind of stand-offish, myself.

 

[KingNothing]

Also, it's ludicrous to say the establishment supports God.

Yeah, Deists: The persecuted, powerless minority. Maybe someday, if we're lucky, we'll have a person of prominence proclaim faith in a God to break this stranglehold atheists have on the establishment and modern society.

 

[tttppp]

You just said it. God IS infinity. Infinity, devoid of any intelligence, cannot spontaneously begin moulding the universe. Only a personal, intelligent source can do that.

I know they're not needed to exist. That still doesn't solve the problem. The difference between infinity and God is that God can act. God is personal. Your idea of infinity is impersonal. No matter how infinite your infinity is, it cannot accomodate the spontaneity of beginnings. That is logically impossible, not just impossible according to the laws of the universe. If you believe the universe has always existed, that brings back the infinite regression of causes problem.

You don't seem to have a complete grasp on infinity. You do realize that infinity includes every possible outcome or reality including our reality. So if infinity exists, we exist. Otherwise its not infinity you are talking about. If we exist, we wouldn't need God to create us.

 

[tttppp]

And yet you won't tell me what the theory is. Gotcha.

My arguments are based on logical absolutes, not on "because I said so." Everything I said is logical.

I've already explained my theory is zero equals infinity. I've already explained it in depth to you in other threads. I don't feel like getting into the details, but for this argument, it explains how the universe has always existed and does not need a creator. Read my above post which points out a flaw in your understanding of infinity.

 

[tttppp]

What's your idea of a business based on infinity? Let's hear your idea.

Also, it's ludicrous to say the establishment supports God. Everything in modern science is secular. It is also mainstream because it is taught in all public schools. It is adhered to by nearly every atheist. That makes it pretty mainstream. I can only believe the establishment supports religion if I see ONE example of the established scientific community supporting a non-secular conclusion. I have never seen that in any magazines, any studies, any textbooks (especially not textbooks).

You know what, you might be right. Every politician out there tries to hide their faith and family and core values, and instead tries to push his crazy athiest beliefs on us. I'm personally sick of all these damn athiests in congress.

A business using infinity would be able to make dramatic improvements to technologies. Too often, the new businesses I have seen try to address the smallest of problems. An example of something not infinite would be car companies adding one or two miles per gallon every decade, then charging extra for it.

 

[KingNothing]

It is adhered to by nearly every atheist. That makes it pretty mainstream. I can only believe the establishment supports religion if I see ONE example of the established scientific community supporting a non-secular conclusion. I have never seen that in any magazines, any studies, any textbooks (especially not textbooks).

About 10-percent of the population is atheist/agnostic.

.....and you really want to see a public school or a "text book" come out and say the universe is 6,000 years old because the Bible says so? Really? Just scrap the scientific method and the Separation of Church and State and roll with something like that?

Say what you will about the tenants of modern cosmology, but at least it has its roots in the scientific method. Religious faith requires nothing but blind obedience to dogma. There is no hypothesis to test, or theory to prove or disprove. There is just the Word. Education should be based on breaking dogma and blind obedience, not reinforcing it.

 

[KingNothing]

You don't seem to have a complete grasp on infinity. You do realize that infinity includes every possible outcome or reality including our reality. So if infinity exists, we exist. Otherwise its not infinity you are talking about. If we exist, we wouldn't need God to create us.

That's how I've always thought, though it doesn't answer every question. It just puts the questions in a better looking package.

If the universe is infinite in time or scope, all possible things happen. Therefore we happen.

 

[libertyjam]

You don't seem to have a complete grasp on infinity. You do realize that infinity includes every possible outcome or reality including our reality. So if infinity exists, we exist. Otherwise its not infinity you are talking about. If we exist, we wouldn't need God to create us.

"An infinite expanse of space devoid of matter requires no less logical justification than an infinite expanse of matter devoid of space."

 

[tttppp]

Well, that's progress. Maybe you should spend a few days surfing the site. It's www.carm.org

Also, I never saw the assumption you say he is making.

What is the point of that site? What should I be looking for?

It was pretty clear he assumed all atheists believe time is infinite but nothing else is. He didn't address my beliefs at all. He said there was no third option.

 

[KingNothing]

What is the point of that site? What should I be looking for?

It was pretty clear he assumed all atheists believe time is infinite but nothing else is. He didn't address my beliefs at all. He said there was no third option.

Well, in all honesty, He Who Is I Am is the only real option anyway. So, second options, third options, fourth options... bah! All pointless!

 

[brooks009]

You're not understanding. Both options are equally viable. I don't have to prove God exists any more than you have to prove He doesn't exist. Both belief in God and belief in no God require substantial evidence because both are supernatural beliefs. You can't say "I won't believe in God until I see evidence" and remain consistent because you would have to say the same for no God, i.e. "I won't believe there's no God until I see evidence." They are both equally valid beliefs until the the question is examined in any depth

Wrong, until proof exists, God does not exist. Its the same as saying unicorns exist because we have not proved they don't exist.

Now, I believe in God because of the impossibility of an infinite regression of causes. All that means is that there had to be a first cause that led to all the other causes that finally resulted in us being here.

God would have to have a cause by your logic. And don't use your Magic argument because I don't believe in Magic.

Atheism cannot answer the question, "Why are we here?" It has nothing to offer, so it reverts to arguments from ignorance by saying the universe is so vast and impossible to understand that there may not be a God, and therefore, that's what I'm going to believe. It's fallacious at its very core.

Atheism does not need to answer the question "Why are we here?". That question has nothing to do with the question “Does God exist”. “Why are we here” could have many answers that do not include God.

The universe can't just spontaneously begin

Why not? It is just as logical as your God Theory.

 

[KingNothing]

Why are we here? George Carlin already answered that question. The Earth, or Universe, wanted plastic and couldn't make it on its own. Boom. Problem solved. And it's just as possible as the "to follow God's Word" response.

Deists can't prove this is wrong. Therefore, plastic is our raison d'etre.

 

[KingNothing]

I hate people who try to use logic, reason, or science to prove their faith in God. It's just silly. And it assumes that there is something inherently wrong or stupid with their world-view, which makes them defensive or belligerent. It's alright to say "I believe in God because I choose to believe in God." You don't have to bend over backwards and perform a variety of amazingly logical leaps to try to defend yourselves.

 

[tttppp]

And yet you won't tell me what the theory is. Gotcha.

My arguments are based on logical absolutes, not on "because I said so." Everything I said is logical.

Here is a quote from another thread on the same topic discussing zero=infinity.

Lets make this simple.

Lets say there are only ten pencils in the world. Whats the value of 1 pencil? Probably pretty valuable.

Lets say there are 1,000 pencils in the world. Whats the value of 1 pencil? Less than if there is only 10 pencils.

Lets say there are an infinite amount of pencils in the world. Whats the value of 1 pencil? Zero.

If a pencil equals zero and there are an infinite amount of them, that means infinity equals zero.

Check out this thread:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...-became-a-fan-of-Rick-Santorum-tonight./page4

I spent the entire thread explaining it to you, and here you are bashing me for not explaining it to you, and acting like you never heard this before. There was at least one other thread where I also explained the same thing before.

 

[jmdrake]

This thread = Christians (Rationalists) vs Atheists (Empiricists)

The need to prove that independent objects exist outside of our thinking subject is irrelevant when you can just take it as it is. You can't doubt that you are conscious of something.

Then there's the atheist that believes that "fake" atheist scientists are part of a conspiracy to only release science that allows for the existence of God while they "pretend" to believe God doesn't exist.

 

[jmdrake]

No. I'm saying the science that does not support religion is not mainstream. How often do you hear of a new company starting up based on pricinples of infinity? Almost every new business is based on the idea the universe is limited, and they try to solve the smallest of problems.

I'm sure there will be plenty of new theories. The establishment will pick one and determine its correct and supports God.

Yes. The establishment pushes the idea that science shows God doesn't exist so that they'll fool people into believing God exists. Okay.....

 

[tttppp]

Yes. The establishment pushes the idea that science shows God doesn't exist so that they'll fool people into believing God exists. Okay.....

If religion didn't pick new scientific discoveries and make them their own, the Earth would still be flat and the sun would be orbiting the Earth.

 

[jmdrake]

If religion didn't pick new scientific discoveries and make them their own, the Earth would still be flat and the sun would be orbiting the Earth.

The Bible actually teaches that the earth is round. See: http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm That said, you honestly believe that the reason creationism is taught in public schools and not intelligent design is because of religion? And what about countries where religion is suppressed like China? As for your whole "zero equals infinity" thing (actually zero is the inverse of infinity) that neither affirms nor refutes the existence of God. Many religious people believe in zero point energy. I could believe a conspiracy by energy companies to suppress ZPE, but not religion. I think you're just making stuff up as you go along.

 

[tttppp]

The Bible actually teaches that the earth is round. See: http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm That said, you honestly believe that the reason creationism is taught in public schools and not intelligent design is because of religion? And what about countries where religion is suppressed like China? As for your whole "zero equals infinity" thing (actually zero is the inverse of infinity) that neither affirms nor refutes the existence of God. Many religious people believe in zero point energy. I could believe a conspiracy by energy companies to suppress ZPE, but not religion. I think you're just making stuff up as you go along.

I'm not the first person to suggest religion supresses thought. Ill bet you the majority of atheists would agree with that. I've even been told by many religious people that the Pope is really in charge of everything. If you look at the private sector, government, education, media, etc all those entities supress thought. The private sector might be new to you, but as far as the government, media, and education are concerned, almost everyone on this site recognizes they supress thought.

Zero equals infinity does refute the existence of a God that created everything. It shows the universe never was created and always existed. It does allow for the possibilty of a God that created us. But where religious people are wrong is when they claim God created everything.

 

[jmdrake]

I'm not the first person to suggest religion supresses thought. Ill bet you the majority of atheists would agree with that.

I bet you're one of only a handful of atheists that believe that the big bang theory is a biproduct of religion suppressing thought. That's really just insane.