The War on Religion

[PaulConventionWV]

You're most likely just waisting your time. I've tried explaining it to tttppp before. He can't comprehend that God could be infinite with a finite universe for some strange reason.

I don't even know what he means by 0 = infinity and what he means by that the universe is infinite, infinite in its existence in time or in its volume or both?

I don't think there are even any scientists today that believe that the universe is infinite in either in time or space.

Exactly. Like I said, you have to define infinite.

Also, you are probably right that scientists, which are somehow always the standard for determining unadulterated truth, do not believe in an infinite universe. That's because it is ridiculous to believe that there was no initial cause that led to us being here today.

 

[KingNothing]

Exactly. Like I said, you have to define infinite.

Also, you are probably right that scientists, which are somehow always the standard for determining unadulterated truth, do not believe in an infinite universe. That's because it is ridiculous to believe that there was no initial cause that led to us being here today.

You guys sound like idiots right now. Plenty, maybe even most, scientists believe in an infinite universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

 

[PaulConventionWV]

You're talking about a priori and a posteriori knowledge, and then you're begging the question that the Universe had a beginning. Even if one were to say that the Big Bang is the earliest measurable event, it would not necessarily imply that it was the event that started the universe, or multiverse.


You're not the first person to toss these ideas around. Cosmologists have made careers out of debating the possible scenarios regarding our Universe's beginning and end, and guys like Kant and Schopenhauer worked to make Epistemology an entire philosophical field.

You're right in saying that the big bang didn't necessarily create the universe. However, the truth is that it was conceived to do just that because "scientists", in order to complete the naturalistic theme of evolution and to eliminate the need for a Creator, had to explain how the universe could come into being without being caused. That is why the Big Bang is taught in public schools as truth even though it defies all rational thought. They are trying to eliminate the need for an intelligent, purpose-driven force behind the universe's operating mechanism.

 

[KingNothing]

You're right in saying that the big bang didn't necessarily create the universe. However, the truth is that it was conceived to do just that because "scientists", in order to complete the naturalistic theme of evolution and to eliminate the need for a Creator, had to explain how the universe could come into being without being caused. That is why the Big Bang is taught in public schools as truth even though it defies all rational thought. They are trying to eliminate the need for an intelligent, purpose-driven force behind the universe's operating mechanism.

The Big Bang doesn't defy rational thought. It really does an awesome job of explaining the current state of the things we can observe, as does evolution. They require leaps of faith that are less great than those in any religious text. But they don't answer all the questions. At a very basic level, one could just argue that our latest Big Bang occurred on the 6th Day, or something, because God wanted it to and that it happened 13.75 billion years ago, but in God Years that is really only 6,000 human years, so the Bible is right.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

This is all begging the question. Why must the universe be an effect following a cause?

Because everything that begins to exist must have had a cause. Otherwise, it would not exist. We began to exist, therefore, there must have been a cause. This is novice level philosophy. It's not complicated.

 

[KingNothing]

Because everything that begins to exist must have had a cause. Otherwise, it would not exist. We began to exist, therefore, there must have been a cause. This is novice level philosophy. It's not complicated.

How don't you understand that you're begging the question in the exact same manner that the guy who wanted to know what event begat the existence of God was begging the question?

Before you go tossing around claims about what is "novice level," I think you should step back for a second and make sure that you're not the one that has close to no understanding of philosophy or logic.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

The Big Bang doesn't defy rational thought. It really does an awesome job of explaining the current state of the things we can observe, as does evolution. They require leaps of faith that are less great than those in any religious text. But they don't answer all the questions. At a very basic level, one could just argue that our latest Big Bang occurred on the 6th Day, or something, because God wanted it to and that it happened 13.75 billion years ago, but in God Years that is really only 4,000 human years, so the Bible is right.

Thanks for admitting that the big bang and evolution require leaps of faith and are therefore not scientific. Everything you said after that is mere speculation. I don't have to twist my definitions of day to fit the 13.75 billion year time span because there is plenty of evidence that contradicts the universe being anywhere close to that old.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

How don't you understand that you're begging the question in the exact same manner that the guy who wanted to know what event begat the existence of God was begging the question?

Before you go tossing around claims about what is "novice level," I think you should step back for a second and make sure that not the one that has close to no understanding of philosophy or logic.

I'm not begging the question. You and I had a beginning. We did not always exist. Therefore, we had a beginning. You, as a person, did not always exist. That is self-evident.

 

[matt0611]

The Big Bang doesn't defy rational thought. It really does an awesome job of explaining the current state of the things we can observe, as does evolution. They require leaps of faith that are less great than those in any religious text. But they don't answer all the questions. At a very basic level, one could just argue that our latest Big Bang occurred on the 6th Day, or something, because God wanted it to and that it happened 13.75 billion years ago, but in God Years that is really only 4,000 human years, so the Bible is right.

Believing the universe starting with a bang out of nothing with no cause defies rational thought in my mind. I honestly don't have enough "faith" to believe that. Same goes for an infinite universe.

Thinking about this stuff hurts my brain.

I guess it really comes down to is do you think existence has a reason or is the universe here "just because".

 

[KingNothing]

If God were real, I'd kill to know what he plans to do to prevent a Universal Big Freeze, as the amount of energy in the universe is finite and the universe appears to be expanding, at an ever increasing rate, to infinity. The temperature of the Universe will asymptotically approach absolute zero. Button up. It's going to get really cold in the universe in another dozen billion years or so.

 

[KingNothing]

I'm not begging the question. You and I had a beginning. We did not always exist. Therefore, we had a beginning. You, as a person, did not always exist. That is self-evident.

And you beg the question when you say that the Universe has the same constraint.

 

[KingNothing]

Thanks for admitting that the big bang and evolution require leaps of faith and are therefore not scientific. Everything you said after that is mere speculation. I don't have to twist my definitions of day to fit the 13.75 billion year time span because there is plenty of evidence that contradicts the universe being anywhere close to that old.

You can't actually believe that the Universe is 4,000 years old.... can you?

I hesitate to ascribe any sort of intelligence to you, so I'm not sure if I can count "NO WAY!" as a certainty for your response.

 

[KingNothing]

I'm an idiot. I know so little about the planet I live on, the lives of others, and the Universe we're a part of. But I know exponentially more than so many other people out there, that I'm genuinely confused about how many of you even make it through a day.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

And you beg the question when you say that the Universe has the same constraint.

We ARE the universe. If we exist, then something had to exist to cause us to come into existence. If you follow the regression of causes, you will eventually come to an original cause for our existence. That is what I am talking about. The universe is not independent of us.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

If God were real, I'd kill to know what he plans to do to prevent a Universal Big Freeze, as the amount of energy in the universe is finite and the universe appears to be expanding, at an ever increasing rate, to infinity. The temperature of the Universe will asymptotically approach absolute zero. Button up. It's going to get really cold in the universe in another dozen billion years or so.

If the universe is expanding, then that means it is not infinite (in volume, at least). If it is not infinite, it can never expand to the point where it is infinite.

Also, you act like God is some sort of superhero in a movie who has to figure out how to prevent the natural universe from this "big freeze." If God is not constrained by the laws that govern the universe, then He can simply create more energy. Also, that assumes that He would want to prevent it.

 

[KingNothing]

Believing the universe starting with a bang out of nothing with no cause defies rational thought in my mind. I honestly don't have enough "faith" to believe that. Same goes for an infinite universe.

Thinking about this stuff hurts my brain.

I guess it really comes down to is do you think existence has a reason or is the universe here "just because".

As a Christian, if you believe the reason for being is to follow the word of God, what reason for being did the people who lived prior the publication and wide(r)spread knowledge of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible have?

For those with no knowledge of God, life would have no inherent meaning by your definition.

I don't believe in God, but at the fork in the road I opted for existentialism instead of nihilism and chose to create my own meaning.

 

[KingNothing]

We ARE the universe. If we exist, then something had to exist to cause us to come into existence. If you follow the regression of causes, you will eventually come to an original cause for our existence. That is what I am talking about. The universe is not independent of us.

I understand what you're saying. You are not confusing me. Your logic is just not correct because you're prescribing a set of constraints to phenomena that don't necessarily require them. You're just making an assumption.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

You can't actually believe that the Universe is 4,000 years old.... can you?

I hesitate to ascribe any sort of intelligence to you, so I'm not sure if I can count "NO WAY!" as a certainty for your response.

It's interesting that you bring that up. Why do you automatically assume that the universe must be billions of years old? Why would it be so unthinkable to you that I might believe that? For your information, no, I do not believe the universe is 4000 years old. It is slightly more than 6000 years old. I do not believe that the universe came into being with the introduction of Christ's teachings, which is what you are implying. The Old Testament times existed. The fact that you just automatically revert to the time of Christ shows that you know nothing about the Bible, and you also know nothing about creationism.

 

[KingNothing]

If the universe is expanding, then that means it is not infinite (in volume, at least). If it is not infinite, it can never expand to the point where it is infinite.

I don't think you understand anything about this, or how the idea of an infinite universe or multiverse works.

It's really interesting stuff. I encourage you to Google it, and read as much as your fingers will lead you to. Then check out Youtube. You can find lots of great videos there.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I'm an idiot. I know so little about the planet I live on, the lives of others, and the Universe we're a part of. But I know exponentially more than so many other people out there, that I'm genuinely confused about how many of you even make it through a day.

You are also quite arrogant. You assume that the things you know are the truth.