The Vatican supports NWO...

[Sola_Fide]

Point being owning slaves is just about as stupid as denying Catholics the ability to serve in office. There was no justification for it as you claimed.

Read the article I posted before you say there was no justification. Whether you agree or not, they seemed to have a justification (like not being ruthlessly slaughtered like their ancestors had been in Europe for generations).

 

[Sola_Fide]

Here is the article again. It's one of the best I've read explaining the religious history of America. You won't get this history anywhere else:

http://kevincraig.us/protestant.htm

 

[swissaustrian]

Based on what evidence?

The Italian book "Vaticano S.p.A." (Vatican ltd) by Gianluigi Nuzzi condenses 5000 documents about the mafia connections of the Vatican Bank. It´s a bestseller in Italy. I don´t know whether there is an English version, couldn´t find one on Amazon.
English summary of the book here: http://www.alternet.org/story/14043...ry,_money_launde ring_and_mafia_connections/

Italian trailer

 

[phesoge]

No one said the Church is immune from stupid things, but wether you want to admit it or not the Church has done a lot for western Civilization and the cause of Liberty. Woods has written extensively on this.

 

[Nathaniel1984]

I was thinking when I mentioned the Italian city-states about the work of Rodney Stark in his books, how he demonstrates that it was all laid in the 12th century, and that by the time the structures were moved north, it was about 100 years before the Reformation (that is, the 'capitalist' structures). After all, Italy decreased in finance and importance once the Americas and other routes were discovered.

Also, a freer economy arose in those areas of Europe that had historically resisted centralizing monarchies (England, Scotland, for example). So, Dr. Stark points out that the conditions were a Christian society that believed in an Omnipotent God, who made laws of the universe that human reason could identify (thus, the scientific discoveries, the natural sciences, and then the economic theories that came out of Europe, like Salamanca), AS well as a decentralized political system, if not one that allowed a good degree of personal freedom. In the case of England, people had been fighting for their rights since Archbishop Stephen Langton and the Barons had enought (and Langton pointed out that by custom and law they didn't have to take that kind of abuse in taxes from the King, that is, it was already known.

Europe, after all, didn't come out of a vacuum in the 16th century.

The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success

 

[CaptainAmerica]

pope=anti-christ figure in the fact that his "priest" position is not only contradiction to the new testament,its blaspheme.

 

[Nathaniel1984]

Yes, and even Confucianists can discover gun-powder and Greek pagan can make discoveries in Mathematics.

 

[jmdrake]

My dear sir, I think you misunderstand me partially. I didn't say that Sweden was a Reformed country. I said that the other Western and Central European nations were examples of Lutheran and Reformed countries. Sweden was a Lutheran country, but, it was very despotic.

I shouldn't have said Calvin 'ran' Geneva, but, he was undoubtedly influential in the city, to the point where he was able to have people arrested for heresy, and executed (as in the case of Servetus. who was burnt at the stake, though Calvin did request he be behead instead). Ofcourse, he confirms such sentiments as executing heretics in his works.

Does the teachings of the Reformation leaders that you can executed heretics mean that Protestants didn't make advances in the field of economic liberty? Certainly not, but, it does mean that they cannot exclusively accuse the Papist authorities of having the monopoly on such thoughts and activities.

Where you have de-centralized state power structures, you will ultimately have a freer society.

+rep. I'll take Mennonite "socialists" (as AB describes them) over John Calvin's persecution of "heretics" any day of the week. Jesus said "By this will all men know you are my disciples, that you have love one for the other." Burning people at the stake or asking that they be "beheaded" instead is not how you show love. Religious persecution whether it's done by Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Pagans or Atheists, is always wrong.

As for the OP, there's no doubt that the Vatican is joined at the hip to the NWO. But pointing that out doesn't make one anti Catholic. Even some Cardinals have been recently and publicly dissing the pope. That should tell you something.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...s-Bishops-Refuse-to-Shake-Pope-Benedicts-Hand

 

[jmdrake]

What's with all the anti-Catholic threads the last couple days? Are we trying to hurt Ron Paul?

1) There is a difference between being anti Vatican and anti Catholic. Or do you think the Catholic bishops who recently dissed the pope by refusing to shake his hand are somehow "anti Catholic"?

See: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...s-Bishops-Refuse-to-Shake-Pope-Benedicts-Hand

2) Recently the pope made some inflammatory statements regarding an economic new world order. Ignoring that just to avoid offending Catholics would be like ignoring similar statements from Barack Obama just to avoid offending blacks.

So basically what you're saying is barring Catholics from certain jobs is actually logical? Or was logical? Seriously?

I'm not speaking for AB but for myself. Understanding the motivations of why terrorists attacked us on 9/11 isn't the same as supporting terrorism. Similarly understanding the motivations of why people in the past were concerned about Catholics holding office isn't the same as agreeing with those decisions.

The early colonies also thought it was logical for people with too much melanin to pick cotton all day. Guess that wasn't just blind bigotry either.

That's an apples and orangutans of a comparison. If you want a more apt comparison it would be people today who are concerned about Muslim judges imposing Sharia law.

 

[robert68]

What made Christian Church decentralization possible was the printing press and personal bible ownership, not the “wisdom” of Martin Luther, John Calvin etc. No printing press, no Protestant Reformation.

 

[Nathaniel1984]

I was really refering to the Mennonites of the last few centuries (excluding the crazed initial anabpatist groups), the people we know as the Amish today. I don't agree with their theology, but, they still behave, largely (there are probably notable and bad exceptions and currents) in a non-aggressive manner. That's all I really meant.

 

[Sola_Fide]

What made Christian Church decentralization possible was the printing press and personal bible ownership, not the “wisdom” of Martin Luther, John Calvin etc. No printing press, no Protestant Reformation.

Do you think inventions happen in a vacuum? Do you think that necessity is the mother of invention or do you just think that inventions arise out of thin air for no reason at all?

The worldview of Reformation Christianity gave birth to that technology and the Reformers utilized it because it mirrored their own decentralized world view. Haven't you ever read any Marshal Macluhan? The medium is the message bro.



Learn about the Reformation doctrine of "the priesthood of all believers": http://kevincraig.info/priesthood.htm

The common man now understood that he was a king and a priest under God. The individual was the final authority under God, not any human institution. It shattered the medieval power structure and gave birth to liberty of conscience and democratic capitalism.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Bump.

 

[robert68]

Do you think inventions happen in a vacuum? Do you think that necessity is the mother of invention or do you just think that inventions arise out of thin air for no reason at all?

The worldview of Reformation Christianity gave birth to that technology and the Reformers utilized it because it mirrored their own decentralized world view. Haven't you ever read any Marshal Macluhan? The medium is the message bro...

Do you think maybe Martin Luther and John Calvin made it possible for the wheel to be invented too?

Some facts:

Gutenberg was the first European to use movable type printing, in around 1439. Wiki

The Protestant Reformation, also known as the Protestant Revolt, was a 16th century split within Western Christianity, and was initiated by Martin Luther, John Calvin and other early Protestants. Wiki

 

[Sola_Fide]

Do you think maybe Martin Luther and John Calvin made it possible for the wheel to be invented too?

Some facts:

Some facts: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hus
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wycliffe


John Wycliffe and Jan Huss were already busy leading what was called the pre-reformation. Wycliffe was the first to translate the Bible into English, a grievous offense. He was an outspoken opponent of the papacy. His followers were called Lollards. This was the mid 1300's. His followers were slaughtered and his body was exhumed from the grave and burned by the Roman Church state...just for good measure.

Jan Huss translated the Bible into Chech and led the Hussite wars against the Roman church-state in the early 1400's. He was burned at the stake and the Hussites were slaughtered. All before the printing press...and laid the foundation for the necessity of the printing press.

Like I said before which you didn't understand, THE MEDIUM IS THE MESSAGE. TECHNOLOGY IS THE RESULT OF IDEAS. The printing press would have been useless to the Roman church-state power structure, who burned anyone at the stake who tried to translate the Bible into anything but Latin (which common people couldnt read).

The printing press was simply the individualism and decentralization of Reformation philosophy applied to technology.

 

[robert68]

There have always been different interpretations of scripture. That has no baring on the fact the invention of the printing press predates the Protestant Reformation.

 

[Sola_Fide]

There have always been different interpretations of scripture. That has no baring on the fact the invention of the printing press predates the Protestant Reformation.

The printing press does not pre-date the Reformation. I just showed you that. If you are going to be willfully ignorant, at least don't be so public about it, because you are showing everyone how unread you really are.

Secondly, no, there haven't always been different interpretations. The Roman church state actively supressed and terrorized anyone who opposed them for hundreds and hundreds of years. The Roman church then and now represents centralization and tyranny. I just showed that the printing press was the decentralized philosophy of the Reformers applied to technology. The Roman church would have had no use for either the technology or the theology of the Reformation because it cut at the heart of their entire ecclesiastical/statist power structure.

Please educate yourself. I'm not going to keep repeating it.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Further reading for you Robert:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...f-The-Protestant-Reformation&highlight=luther

And:

http://kevincraig.us/protestant.htm

What began as a debate over fundraising quickly turned to a more fundamental and serious issue: How is salvation obtained? Luther's answer--that men are saved by the righteousness of Christ alone ascribed to them through faith in Christ alone--shattered the entire medieval structure of ecclesiastical and political authority. Luther's appeal was to "Scripture and clear reason," not to the statements of church councils, nor to the decrees of popes, nor to the hierarchy of the church. Unless an idea or a practice is taught by Scripture, Luther argued, it has no authority and is anti-Christian.

The medieval structure of ecclesiastical authority could not withstand the Protestant idea of sola scriptura--the Bible alone. One Christian man with a Bible was superior to any pope or council or tradition without it. Luther translated the Bible from Greek and Hebrew into German so the people could read it in their own language and not be subject to an ecclesiastical ruling class. By translating the Bible into the common language, Luther freed the German people from ecclesiastical totalitarianism: The Bible was the written constitution of the church, which the people could now read for themselves. His second major contribution to Western political thought was the idea of a written constitution--the Bible--limiting the power and authority of church (and later political) leaders. There is a direct connection between the Reformation cry of sola scriptura and the American idea of the Constitution--not any man or body of men--as the supreme law of the land.

Harold Berman of Emory University has pointed out that "the key to the renewal of law in the West from the sixteenth century on was the Protestant concept of the power of the individual, by God's grace, to change nature and to create new social relations through the exercise of his will. The Protestant concept of the individual became central to the development of the modern law of property and contract...." This, along with Luther's idea that all callings--all labor, not just the labor of monks and nuns-could be done to the glory of God, led to the development of the free market economy. A free society and a free market were the political and economic expressions of the religious ideas of the Reformation. Capitalism was the economic practice of which Christianity was the theory.

Luther argued that Christians were free of the arbitrary control of either the church or the state. God alone is lord of the conscience. He wrote. "It is with the Word that we must fight, by the Word we must overthrow and destroy what has been set up by violence. I will not make use of force against the superstitious and unbelieving...No one must be constrained. Liberty is the very essence of faith...I will preach, discuss, and write; but I will constrain none, for faith is a voluntary act...I have stood up against the pope, indulgences, and papists, but without violence or tumult I put forward God's Word; I preached and wrote--this was all I did. The Word alone did all. If I had wished to appeal to force, the whole of Germany would perhaps have been deluged with blood."

Religious liberty, freedom of conscience, is an idea that Luther derived from the Bible's teaching about faith: Belief is a gift of God; it is not a work of man's free will. Men cannot believe the Gospel unless God causes them to. Luther wrote: "God's Word should be allowed to work alone, without our work or interference. Why? Because it is not in my power to fashion the hearts of men as the potter molds the clay...I can get no further than their ears; their hearts I cannot reach. And since I cannot pour faith into their hearts, I cannot nor should I, force anyone to have faith. That is God's work alone, who causes faith to live in the heart...We should preach the Word, but the results must be left solely to God's good pleasure. By articulating the Biblical doctrine of faith as wholly a gift of God, Luther undermined the Catholic inquisition and formulated the theological rationale for religious liberty.

 

[robert68]

The printing press does not pre-date the Reformation. I just showed you that.

No you didn't.

The protests against the corruption emanating from Rome began in earnest when Martin Luther, an Augustinian monk at the university of Wittenberg, called in 1517 for a reopening of the debate on the sale of indulgences and the authority to absolve sin and remit one from purgatory. Luther's dissent marked a sudden outbreak of a new and irresistible force of discontent. The Reformers made heavy use of inexpensive pamphlets (using the relatively new printing press invented by Johannes Gutenberg) so there was swift movement of both ideas and documents, including The Ninety-Five Theses. Wiki

Secondly, no, there haven't always been different interpretations.

To those either ignorant of much of Christian history or who have no respect for interpretations of scripture they don’t like.

 

[TER]

Secondly, no, there haven't always been different interpretations.

In fact, it wasn't until the Reformation when we really start seeing some widely differing interpretations. Ironic, isn't it, that the tradition of Sola Scriptura created the most amount of dogmatic and theological divisions and varying interpretations then ever known in the history of Christianity before it. When one idolizes a book and makes their own fallen mind the infallible interpreter of the Scriptures above the authority of the Church which wrote, compiled and selected the books of the Scriptures, then it is easy to see why tens of thousands of divisions have occurred in the past few centuries, straying wildly from the most fundamental practices of the Church, most notably the Holy Eucharist. In fact, such personal interpretations existed even in the early Church, even before there was a New Testament book, leading St. Paul to write entire epistles warning the believers to stay true to the teachings of the faith handed down to them and to go against any gospel that was different from the one they were given and explained to them. And yet, where is the Holy Eucharist in many of today's churches? To think that some here would attack the Catholic Church from which their own modern church is a child of and drew much of its beliefs from and not look into their own divisions and failings is the height of arrogance and blindness.

AB, you do a disservice to Christians and to this forum in general when you continue to make ignorant statements knowing next to nothing about the history of the Church, making accusation against the early saints and martyrs who did more to witness for Christ in a single quiet day in their lives then you will likely do your entire life. When you start referring to the early Church, your ignorance really shines through and you lose all credibility. Why don't you read a little more (preferably from sources other than the skewed ones you have been using that like to paint a false generalized history) and then you can make more informative and educational posts. If you wish, I can recommend some books, although I highly doubt you would make the effort to read them, being that you would only say that you have been predestined not too.