The rise and fall of the libertarians?

I wouldn't count libertarianism dead just yet. Libertarian Party registrations have doubled as many are leaving the GOP after Trump's GOP victories. "Bye Bye, GOP!" is becoming a phrase as Gallup Polls indicate 27% of voters consider themselves libertarians.

Right, so I think part of the lesson is to work to position yourself and wait for the right conditions to leverage. There wasn't anything great or magical that the LP just did. When you consider it, Ron Paul did the same thing, he positioned himself for 20 years and then things just went crazy with the right conditions.
 
Can you please cite for me amply cases of where Trump is being promoted such that this is a safe zone?

The staff just can't read every post so members flagging guideline violations plays an important role.

Thanks.

Here we have someone fresh off of a temporary ban, and who came back with a vengeance, as you yourself admitted.

A nationalist certainly can be an imperialist, but it takes a globalist to conspire to destroy ones own nation.

Who do you honestly believe is more keen to start endless wars?

Now, everyone knows that Hitler was no globalist, beyond his desire to take the globe from the globalists. Yet he started a war that didn't end in his lifetime, and destroyed his own nation with it. And every schoolchild knows it.

There's no reason for a libertarian to rewrite history in this manner. But it certainly does qualify as a sales pitch for Trump, doesn't it?

Donald Trump, who wants to find an efficient, low-cost way to take the oil, or Hillary Clinton, who wants to continue endless wars for the purpose of sinking the USA into as much debt as possible so that the nation can be swallowed up by its international debtors?

Let's imagine for a moment that LLS is considering rejoining us, and is lurking at this very moment. Is the admission that Trump is trying to steal the world's oil, combined with a contention that he's trying to do it as efficiently as possible, going to entice her to log in and join the conversation?

Sanders supporters absolutely are stupid (insomuch as the truly believe in socialism) but that does not mean that even they might not be able to tell that Donald Trump is simply a lot less evil than Clinton.

Painting with a broad brush (is a Sanders supporter not capable of deciding that socialism is bad, but war is worse?), insulting potential supporters, and nakedly promoting Trump (and not using any provable facts to do it).

And not a single voter anywhere who is going after Clinton with a vengeance is going to sabotage themselves by voting for any third party that can only really hurt Donald Trump.

Since when is it a given that the antiwar faction is afraid of 'third' parties, and what is there about Mr. Conquer the Middle East and Take Their Oil is going to attract the antiwar faction?

Our best hope to form a winning coalition, and your best hope of restoring traffic to this place, lies in forming coalitions, and the antiwar group is about as big and active a group as any of us could ever hope to coalesce with. Would it not be wise to make this place attractive to them, now that their horse is about to be eliminated from the race?

Trump people have about a hundred echo chambers they can hang out in. Those who are here, therefore, are pretty likely to have an agenda. And a coalition for liberty is not it.
 
I'm not following your point, could you explain?

Thanks.

Community Values
As a community:

* We value a plethora of viewpoints. All are welcomed except those based on negativity in collectivist mindsets that view humans as members of groups rather than as individuals. Sexism, racism and anti-semitism are the antithesis of our values.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1989

Seems more than pretty obvious to me. Is "community" NOT a collectivist mindset with human group membership?

Shall we tackle authoritarian Internet forums based on liberty, next?
 
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I agree, especially about the "Losertarian" business. It's posts like this that made me realize there is a definite push on RPF to keep RPF-goers voting for the Republican candidate, even if that candidate represents the complete opposite of anything the Pauls believe in. We already know Ron Paul isn't voting for Trump. So we, as Ron Paul supporters, know we cannot support Trump, and must vote for a third party candidate. Then someone comes along, scoffing about "Losertarians", shilling for Trump, in nearly every political thread. The "Losertarian" comments, for me, are an instant red flag: this person is shilling for the GOP.

1. Issue 1: This site isn't a libertarian site, as some wish to tell others so often. From my understanding it is for anyone and everyone who will respect the guidelines and the mission.

2. Issue 2: He's darn good, but Ron Paul is not a god. Just because RP is doing or not doing something, doesn't mean we all have to walk lockstep.

3. Issue 3: Again, this site is not limited to Libertarians or libertarians. You criticize with one breath, someone saying Losertarian, but with the other, call someone who supports Trump to be "shilling" for both Trump and the GOP. I have seen all kinds of names being used on this forum to describe Ron and Rand supporters, who, after Rand dropped out, decided to support Trump; Trumpsters, Trumptards, Trumpaloopas and worse. They have been called idiots, stupid, etc. And it has been constant.... But, someone who brow-beat forum members for daring to mention that their 2nd choice was Trump, is now advocating for all Rand supporters to vote Libertarian is not described as "shilling"? If not, why the double standard?
 
Here we have someone fresh off of a temporary ban, and who came back with a vengeance, as you yourself admitted.

Now, everyone knows that Hitler was no globalist, beyond his desire to take the globe from the globalists. Yet he started a war that didn't end in his lifetime, and destroyed his own nation with it. And every schoolchild knows it.

There's no reason for a libertarian to rewrite history in this manner. But it certainly does qualify as a sales pitch for Trump, doesn't it?

Let's imagine for a moment that LLS is considering rejoining us, and is lurking at this very moment. Is the admission that Trump is trying to steal the world's oil, combined with a contention that he's trying to do it as efficiently as possible, going to entice her to log in and join the conversation?

Painting with a broad brush (is a Sanders supporter not capable of deciding that socialism is bad, but war is worse?), insulting potential supporters, and nakedly promoting Trump (and not using any provable facts to do it).

Since when is it a given that the antiwar faction is afraid of 'third' parties, and what is there about Mr. Conquer the Middle East and Take Their Oil is going to attract the antiwar faction?

Our best hope to form a winning coalition, and your best hope of restoring traffic to this place, lies in forming coalitions, and the antiwar group is about as big and active a group as any of us could ever hope to coalesce with. Would it not be wise to make this place attractive to them, now that their horse is about to be eliminated from the race?

Trump people have about a hundred echo chambers they can hang out in. Those who are here, therefore, are pretty likely to have an agenda. And a coalition for liberty is not it.

Hitler was a globalist tool.

He destroyed Germany in order to further the agenda of the Rothschild's - and every other inbred family of weirdo aristocrats that control the world behind the scenes.

Nouveau riche Trump is nowhere near so controlled, and if the only choice is between a crass billionaire mercantilist, and just another standard, globalist stooge, then the choice should be clear.

Donald Trump's likely victory is going to open the Pandora's Box for every manner of alternative candidate anyway.

Rather ironic that you seem to want to murder that baby while it's still in the cradle.
 
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people started listening and supporting Ron Paul because of the financial crisis and the decade of bullshit wars. I imagine it'll have to get really bleak once more for more people to wake up and realize traditional democrats and republicans don't have the solutions and are instead part of the problems.

There is some truth to this. Ron Paul came along at a time when a lot of the issues he had been preaching about for 30 years were coming to the forefront..... but now the situation is somewhat different. Inflation is significantly lower than it was 8 years ago, the dollar is stronger, and another financial crisis has yet to occur. Our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan is much reduced and we haven't gotten into another major war. Also huge progress has been made on the drug war which is an issue that brought a lot of people into the libertarian movement and Ron's campaign (such as myself). I think these things significantly bolstered the support for both of Ron's presidential campaigns, and have worked to take some of the steam out of the movement since. On the bright side, the fact that we haven't gotten into another major war and that great progress has been made on the drug war are positive developments. And the liberty movement has no doubt had an influence in making that happen. Of course there are many ways in which we are worse off than in 2008, but I think the stuff mentioned above drew a lot of people to Ron Paul and the liberty movement... especially liberals... and now that dynamic is much less in play. That is at least part of the story of what is going on.
 
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1. Issue 1: This site isn't a libertarian site, as some wish to tell others so often. From my understanding it is for anyone and everyone who will respect the guidelines and the mission.

Please explain, LE, how supporting a non-liberty candidate is supporting the forum's mission to provide a forum for those who seek individual liberty.

2. Issue 2: He's darn good, but Ron Paul is not a god. Just because RP is doing or not doing something, doesn't mean we all have to walk lockstep.

So you would ignore Ron Paul's advice not to support Trump? Well, that's ridiculous.

3. Issue 3: Again, this site is not limited to Libertarians or libertarians. You criticize with one breath, someone saying Losertarian

Yes, I do: it's a red flag for me, and it indicates to me that someone wants to denigrate the LP as much as possible. Which, of course, makes me wonder why. Rand Paul isn't in the race anymore, so there are no libertarian-leaning candidates running in the GOP presidential race. Why would libertarian-leaning forum-goers, or even conservative forum-goers want me (or anyone else on these forums) to vote for Donald Trump, who has no liberty values, and who has no conservative values he won't sell out? And why, for that matter, would anyone on RPF repeatedly argue against voting for candidates espousing actual liberty positions?
 
Here we have someone fresh off of a temporary ban, and who came back with a vengeance, as you yourself admitted.
Petar is honest and sometimes blunt. You yourself are quite blunt. He doesn't promote open borders or globalism, which is not in vogue with some here these days.

Now, everyone knows that Hitler was no globalist, beyond his desire to take the globe from the globalists. Yet he started a war that didn't end in his lifetime, and destroyed his own nation with it. And every schoolchild knows it.
By bringing up Hitler, you seem to be attempting to equate anyone who believes in putting their own country first as like Hitler. Do you really believe that? Putting your own country first used to be called being an American.

There's no reason for a libertarian to rewrite history in this manner. But it certainly does qualify as a sales pitch for Trump, doesn't it?
If you are saying that globalists and their useful idiots left a door wide open for an American who actually put America first to walk though, I would say, ABSOLUTELY! Imagine that.

Let's imagine for a moment that LLS is considering rejoining us, and is lurking at this very moment. Is the admission that Trump is trying to steal the world's oil, combined with a contention that he's trying to do it as efficiently as possible, going to entice her to log in and join the conversation?
Possibly not. But, imagine if the many who left this site when it took an observable swing leftward, in addition to other Americans who love their country, might think if they see other people who aren't trying to run what is left of their nation in the dirt and spit on it.

Painting with a broad brush (is a Sanders supporter not capable of deciding that socialism is bad, but war is worse?), insulting potential supporters, and nakedly promoting Trump (and not using any provable facts to do it).
You mean like all the names that Ron and Rand supporters have been called, after they said they were going to vote for Trump, after Rand dropped out? Like that?
(and not using any provable facts to do it)
Many provable facts have been posted, but they are ignored and the libel is continued.

Since when is it a given that the antiwar faction is afraid of 'third' parties, and what is there about Mr. Conquer the Middle East and Take Their Oil is going to attract the antiwar faction?
I haven't seen anyone say that. But, you do realize that the "antiwar" faction is but one small sliver of what was the Ron Paul movement, right? In fact, just the term alone sends shivers up the spine of most traditional conservatives, because the people using it were leftist pacifists back in the day.

Our best hope to form a winning coalition, and your best hope of restoring traffic to this place, lies in forming coalitions, and the antiwar group is about as big and active a group as any of us could ever hope to coalesce with. Would it not be wise to make this place attractive to them, now that their horse is about to be eliminated from the race?
You want this place to be limited to libertarians. Just be honest about it.

Trump people have about a hundred echo chambers they can hang out in.
And here you are suggesting Ron and Rand supporters, who, after Rand dropped out have chosen to vote for Trump, should get the hell out. How quaint. Maybe you should start your own forum.

Those who are here, therefore, are pretty likely to have an agenda.
Yes, and that agenda is the same as it always has been. Attempting to save my nation from total destruction and my liberty with it. But, I will admit, that it's rather frustrating to run into some here who claim to be such liberty-supporters, yet promoting the same agenda as the globalists who are trying to destroy us.

And a coalition for liberty is not it.
Sure it is. But, it doesn't include the destruction of the nation, which some here apparently believe is a necessity for their version of "liberty".
 
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Please explain, LE, how supporting a non-liberty candidate is supporting the forum's mission to provide a forum for those who seek individual liberty.
He is in several regards, in my opinion and not on a whole lot of others. Have you listened to his foreign policy speech?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW8RqLN3Qao

Given where our country is right now in the big scheme of things, I am concerned we won't have a country at all, if at least a screwdriver is put in the globalists' spokes. I think Trump will try to do that. Again, listen to the video.

So you would ignore Ron Paul's advice not to support Trump? Well, that's ridiculous.
Absolutely. I think he is very wrong on this.

Yes, I do: it's a red flag for me, and it indicates to me that someone wants to denigrate the LP as much as possible. Which, of course, makes me wonder why. Rand Paul isn't in the race anymore, so there are no libertarian-leaning candidates running in the GOP presidential race. Why would libertarian-leaning forum-goers, or even conservative forum-goers want me (or anyone else on these forums) to vote for Donald Trump, who has no liberty values, and who has no conservative values he won't sell out? And why, for that matter, would anyone on RPF repeatedly argue against voting for candidates espousing actual liberty positions?
Which LP candidate would that be? Gary Johnson stinks. He made an ass of himself on his foreign policy last time he ran. Isn't he also pro-abortion? It's not my number one issue, considering the state of our country right now, but if you are holding him out as a liberty candidate, you need to go back to the drawing board.

Trump is far from perfect and yes, he may be full of hot air. We always run that risk with most any candidate, with exception of Ron. Listen to Trump's foreign policy speech. Maybe you will start to understand then. Beyond that, I'm trying my best not to promote Trump, per Bryan's wishes.
 
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I haven't seen anyone say that. But, you do realize that the "antiwar" faction is but one small sliver of what was the Ron Paul movement, right? In fact, just the term alone sends shivers up the spine of most traditional conservatives, because the people using it were leftist pacifists back in the day.

Sure it is. But, it doesn't include the destruction of the nation, which some here apparently believe is a necessity for their version of "liberty".

And you have actively driven off anyone you consider a leftist, back in the day and to this very day. Yet they are active, they vote, they are concerned about civil liberties, and they have demonstrated a willingness to be open and work with us.

Either this site is a place where the disaffected can be brought together and rallied in the cause of liberty, or this is Trump Echo Chamber #284. It is unlikely to be both. You whine about globalism, but being fooled into giving up our liberties for security and putting American Imperialism before Global Imperialism is to go down the exact same road, but with blinders on. Eventually, it will lead us to the same place.

Trump is not Monroe, and his 'better deals' are not alliances that will not entangle us. Even if he is what you say he is, the place he will leave us after eight years (assuming he can win at all, which is also highly doubtful) is just the place the globalists want us--about three baby steps away from the New World Order. And that's your best case scenario.

I'll take my chances with the leftists, provided they're principled. Thanks anyway. Any leftist who supports the Libertarian Party is not promoting globalism, because what they are supporting is more localized control, which obviously moves a nation farther from the New World Order, not closer.
 
And you have actively driven off anyone you consider a leftist, back in the day and to this very day.
That's not true. I never drove you off.

Yet they are active, they vote, they are concerned about civil liberties, and they have demonstrated a willingness to be open and work with us.

Either this site is a place where the disaffected can be brought together and rallied in the cause of liberty, or this is Trump Echo Chamber #284. It is unlikely to be both. You whine about globalism, but being fooled into giving up our liberties for security and putting American Imperialism before Global Imperialism is to go down the exact same road, but with blinders on. Eventually, it will lead us to the same place.

Trump is not Monroe, and his 'better deals' are not alliances that will not entangle us. Even if he is what you say he is, the place he will leave us after eight years (assuming he can win at all, which is also highly doubtful) is just the place the globalists want us--about three baby steps away from the New World Order. And that's your best case scenario.

I'll take my chances with the leftists, provided they're principled. Thanks anyway. Any leftist who supports the Libertarian Party is not promoting globalism, because what they are supporting is more localized control, which obviously moves a nation farther from the New World Order, not closer.
Of course you will.
 
That's not true. I never drove you off.

But we do keep trying, don't we.

Of course you will.

Of course I will. I have no irrational fear of the term 'left'. Anyone who is willing to work for local control, and therefore willing to work for a situation where a globalist has to work at integrating fifty states and seven territories, instead of just corrupting Washington to achieve their goal, is an ally that can actually impede globalism.

Someone focused on condensing power in Washington, conquering the Middle East and cutting deals is not.
 
But we do keep trying, don't we.
Apparently not, or you would have been gone long ago. But, I (mod edit) anyone who doesn't hate Trump and is not willing to run around here lying about his positions.

Of course I will. I have no irrational fear of the term 'left'. Anyone who is willing to work for local control, and therefore willing to work for a situation where a globalist has to work at integrating fifty states and seven territories, instead of just corrupting Washington to achieve their goal, is an ally that can actually impede globalism.
Maybe you are the person who can pull the left together to get rid of Agenda 21, locally, and the like. We certainly need people to do that.

...instead of just corrupting Washington to achieve their goal, is an ally that can actually impede globalism. Someone focused on condensing power in Washington, conquering the Middle East and cutting deals is not.
Trump is anti-globalist. You need to watch that video.
 
He is in several regards, in my opinion. Have you listened to his foreign policy speech?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW8RqLN3Qao

Trump has contradicted himself at every juncture. You cannot take anything he says at face value. This is a man who supported the War in Iraq, and indeed called for an invasion of Iraq, in the media, before it happened. Link. He has called for "boots on the ground" (what he means is US soldiers: humans, not boots) to fight ISIS. Link. He has called for troops to remain in Afghanistan. Link. He has called for strengthening our military, already the largest on the planet. He has called for bombing oil fields in Iraq. He has called for stopping Iran's nuclear program "by any means necessary", and has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea. Link.

How are any of these positions liberty positions? They are pro-war, ultra-war-hawk positions which would/will involve the US in even more overseas military quagmires.


Which LP candidate would that be? Gary Johnson stinks. He made an ass of himself on his foreign policy last time he ran. Isn't he also pro-abortion? It's not my number one issue, considering the state of our country right now, but if you are holding him out as a liberty candidate, you need to go back to the drawing board.

Johnson called for a 43% reduction in military spending. This is exactly what needs to happen. We need to bring our troops home from overseas entanglements. Any of the LP candidates have a better foreign policy than Donald Trump, who of course has two positions on any issue.
 
Either this is a place where we cower in fear of 'leftists', and promote the GOP, and pat each other on the back and try to reassure each other that Trump might do something for us if we get on our knees and beg him to, or this place is a force for liberty.

Given the fact that we would have to ignore about 75% of the stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth to pull the former off...

And just because no one has run me off...

Maybe you should start your own forum.

..is no indication that no one has tried. But it's the sort of rhetoric one expects from someone who wants us to ignore 75% of what their candidate has said over time.
 
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,...and as soon as we get the Socialists on board, somebody should give La Raza a call.
 
Either this is a place where we cower in fear of 'leftists', and promote the GOP, and pat each other on the back and try to reassure each other that Trump might do something for us if we get on our knees and beg him to, or this place is a force for liberty.

Given the fact that we would have to ignore about 75% of the stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth to pull the former off...

And just because no one has run me off...



..is no indication that no one has tried. But it's the sort of rhetoric one expects from someone who wants us to ignore 75% of what their candidate has said over time.

False dichotomy, neither option is acceptable. How about pure revulsion at their perpetual dishonesty and mega statism?

"By their body counts ye shall know them."
 
I was a libertarian before Ron Paul came along. I liked and respected Ron, but I was never hugely excited about what he was doing. 70%-80% of the people supporting Ron were not libertarian in any meaningful way. And the people Ron did encourage to become libertarian didn't necessarily learn the right lessons.

Rand was the best libertarian shot probably ever but his chances were were still low single digits. The excitement for libertarianism was always overstated.

There is value in keeping ideas alive and conversing with like minded people. It doesn't take that many people to shift policy. You could have looked back at many points in the 20th Century and be very pessimistic. But a small number of free market intellectuals changed world history for the better.
 
Either this is a place where we cower in fear of 'leftists', and promote the GOP, and pat each other on the back and try to reassure each other that Trump might do something for us if we get on our knees and beg him to,
No one has asked anyone to get on your knees and beg Trump to do anything at all, or to even like him. You make those statements about the GOP, yet, you have said your goal is to replace the GOP with the LP. Does that mean that you want everyone to pat each other on the back and try to reassure each other that whomever the LP nominates will be the way, the truth and the light?

Seriously, this is whacko bird stuff, Tulsa. Instead of getting so upset that a few Paul supporters are going to vote for Trump, why don't you do your own thing. Promote the LP or whatever. I personally am not going to join with that, because I think it fruitless, but we don't all have to take the same path.

or this place is a force for liberty.
Yes, it's a place for liberty and not just YOUR version of it. You seem to not have a problem with those promoting the illegal alien overrun of our borders, cultural marxism and globalism as a whole, but damn, if you see someone who doesn't hate Trump, all hell breaks loose.

Given the fact that we would have to ignore about 75% of the stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth to pull the former off...
That's interesting, because at least 75% of the Trump griping around here is taking his words out of context. Something that was often done to Ron and we hated it. Yet, some of us are willing to turn around and do it to someone else.

And just because no one has run me off...
:rolleyes: A bit disingenuous, don't you think. Since I said that to you in response for YOU telling Petar to get lost.

..is no indication that no one has tried. But it's the sort of rhetoric one expects from someone who wants us to ignore 75% of what their candidate has said over time.
I don't think anyone gives a rat's damn what you think. People only care if lies are told. Because those who lie show that they are unable to argue against his actual positions. Instead preferring to make shit up, or take his statements completely out of context and post them repeatedly, including in juvenile pictures and cartoons. Even when the complete interview from which said statements were excerpted that proves his actual position is posted, it doesn't stop the libelous ones. No, can't have that.
 
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I don't think anyone gives a rat's damn what you think.
This won't come as a shock to you, but I care what @acptulsa thinks. Because I know he's not taking Trump's words out of context as you claim he is (no, it's not at all the same thing that was done to Dr. Paul, unless you're also accusing Ron of doing the same thing, too.)
 
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