the right to commit suicide is not a RIGHT! - everyone should understand this!

I really don't see how euthanasia is even up for debate.

Preventing a friend from committing suicide is one thing, that is debatable to a point, but if someone is in debilitating pain or terminally ill and wishes to go peacefully who the hell is the State to tell them no?

Make them suffer while the DEA simultaneously makes it harder and harder to receive the pain medication needed even going so far as to downright restrict certain drugs.

The medical system is ass backwards.

Its not the State pulling the strings there, its the Medical Industrial Complex demanding to milk Insurance Industrial Complex for every penny they can squeeze out of the sick and otherwise unable to defend themselves or end their own lives.

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Neither the Medical or Medical Insurance Industrial Complexes make money off of healthy people. Where do you think Obamacare came from? The intention to keep us fat, sick, and hopelessly dependant on the very system that makes us fat and sick in the first place. Then you wonder why people want out, by any means necessary?
 
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I do get your logic. Problem is that you think we have LIMITED RIGHTS. I believe we have nearly UNLIMITED RIGHTS, the only limitation is when our Rights impose on the Rights of others around us. And I do not believe we have to be alive to have Rights. What you are saying could also be twisted so that when we die of natural causes, that WILLS would and should always have been invalidated.

As far as saving someone that is dying, thats your choice, but since it is an interaction with another person, saving a life is NOT a Right. Yes, it is expected, but it isnt a Right.
when one dies from natural causes, all of his properties rights will be transfered to other people, even his pets. when one dies, the entity of himself doesn't exist any more. so right of speech, etc all vanishes when one dies. his body will be burned or buried. what rights are left of him? nil, naught, nothing. so death means all rights are terminated. suicide is to DIE, so it is NOT a RIGHT. we can't have a RIGHT to terminate all RIGHTS, logically.
saving someone is perfectly a RIGHT. any action that doesn't violate other people's RIGHTS is within my rights to carry out. since suicide is NOT a RIGHT, saving someone is NOT violating his rights. so saving someone else is within anyone's rights. so when i'm going to save a suicidal peron, and somebody stops me because this person hates the suicidal person and wants him dead, i can charge him for violating my rights and indirectly cause the suicidal person's death.
 
Rights exist because WE exist, not because the Law exists. Jefferson had something to say about the existence of Rights and the Law as well:

I agree with Jefferson...you've missed my point. I never said that law creates Rights, it is the law (ideally) where one's Rights are protected. If the law fails to protect our Rights, then we have firearms as a back-up plan.
 
when one dies from natural causes, all of his properties rights will be transfered to other people, even his pets.

judejin, this is completely false. Did you know that? Your statement above is totally and completely false! I'll bet you didn't know that!

You see, in a libertarian world, and indeed in the current world as it is as well, you can make all kinds of contracts, pretty much unlimited contracts of any and all sort, contracts covering whatever your imagination can dream up which are rightly and lawfully enforceable and enforced long after you are dead. You can, for example, make a contract with a trust that all your assets are transferred to them upon your death (or long before your death). You can make all kinds of complex and ridiculous stipulations and rules about exactly, precisely, how your property is to be managed. So long as there are no other outstanding debts overriding your rules, the trust gets the assets and is absolutely legally bound to carry out your wishes. Forever. You can tell them to take care of your pet. You can tell them to take care of your pet's children, to the 100th generation! You can tell them whatever you want.

In short, a person with an unusually long time horizon can continue controlling things long, long, long after he is dead in a libertarian world that respects property rights. His property does not necessarily stop being his when he's dead. Not if he plans ahead. He can keep his property doing exactly what he wants it to do, forever. Well, at least what he had wanted it to do when alive. If he changes his mind at some point in the afterlife, he is unfortunately out of luck unless he has arranged some legally acceptable way to communicate his new instructions.
 
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Simple solution- make sure you are alone.
So, do you leave? Because that was the question. Could you please answer the question? I feel like it's an important question. It should not be difficult to answer. It's not particularly tricky.

Here it is again:

Or after I tell you in no uncertain terms to "leave me alone so I can kill myself", do you leave?

Do you ever leave, Ender? Or do you never leave, foisting your will upon him for the rest of your life?
 
judejin, this is completely false. Did you know that? Your statement above is totally and completely false! I'll bet you didn't know that!

You see, in a libertarian world, and indeed in the current world as it is as well, you can make all kinds of contracts, pretty much unlimited contracts of any and all sort, contracts covering whatever your imagination can dream up which are rightly and lawfully enforceable and enforced long after you are dead. You can, for example, make a contract with a trust that all your assets are transferred to them upon your death (or long before your death). You can make all kinds of complex and ridiculous stipulations and rules about exactly, precisely, how your property is to be managed. So long as there are no other outstanding debts overriding your rules, the trust gets the assets and is absolutely legally bound to carry out your wishes. Forever. You can tell them to take care of your pet. You can tell them to take care of your pet's children, to the 100th generation! You can tell them whatever you want.

In short, a person with an unusually long time horizon can continue controlling things long, long, long after he is dead in a libertarian world that respects property rights. His property does not necessarily stop being his when he's dead. Not if he plans ahead. He can keep his property doing exactly what he wants it to do, forever. Well, at least what he had wanted it to do when alive. If he changes his mind at some point in the afterlife, he is unfortunately out of luck unless he has arranged some legally acceptable way to communicate his new instructions.

I disagree with this. I don't see why your wishes should be respected anymore after you're dead. Of course you can transfer your physical property to whoever you want but I don't think there can possibly be a human right to be able to control property after you are now dead and therefore no longer care what is done with it.
 
Exactly, it's an arbitrary distinction. And once you get into the realm of arbitrary distinctions, the "right" to invade and control your personal life, only expands, until eventually (as today), you can be thrown into an institution on the mere testimony of a single person who chose to call the cops on you. Or, as is getting more common, just a simple facebook post JOKING about suicide.

It's better to keep it simple. You have ZERO right to use force against me if I am not infringing upon your rights.

Yeah, if I see you about to jump off a freaking bridge, I'm going to grab you and hope you don't decide to kill yourself later. If you do, you do, and if you don't, you don't have any right, logically, to press any sanctions against me for doing what I did.
 
Yeah, if I see you about to jump off a freaking bridge, I'm going to grab you and hope you don't decide to kill yourself later. If you do, you do, and if you don't, you don't have any right, logically, to press any sanctions against me for doing what I did.

You do what you got to do. But you still have no right to do it.
 
I disagree with this. I don't see why your wishes should be respected anymore after you're dead. Of course you can transfer your physical property to whoever you want but I don't think there can possibly be a human right to be able to control property after you are now dead and therefore no longer care what is done with it.
Another word for Libertarian would be Contractarian. Do you see now?

To elaborate: The person who is dead may or may not have any more rights, but that does not matter. If he was smart, he has set up contracts such that his wishes must be followed. Contracts must be followed.

But, you say, if one of the parties is a dead person, then violating the term of the contract would not be an infringement on any living person's rights! Violate away! No one's around to press charges! Right?

Not quite. For one thing, companies specializing in fulfilling contracts with the dead, such as trusts, have a reputation to uphold. If they start violating their trustee's clear written contracts, who else is going to entrust them with their stuff? No one, that's who.

As the second line of defense (even if reputation didn't matter or there were no such thing as trusts) it's pretty simple for the man to set up a contract playing two third parties off of each other, so that even when he is gone and thus no longer able to enforce the terms, there is someone else still around who is.
 
You do what you got to do. But you still have no right to do it.

I don't, but the only place you really have a right to sue me for it is from your coffin. Anything else, and you're implicitly agreeing that I acted properly. If you sued me for saving your life, but then you didn't kill yourself, you would be in a logically contradictory state for saying you want to punish me for doing something that you show by your actions that you are glad I did.

Any reasonable jury would throw something like this out. And I seriously doubt any just libertarian court would prevent me from at least presenting this type of argument to the jury for discussion. I seriously doubt they'd uphold the suit if they were sane.
 
Another word for Libertarian would be Contractarian. Do you see now?

I don't quite agree with that.
To elaborate: The person who is dead may or may not have any more rights, but that does not matter. If he was smart, he has set up contracts such that his wishes must be followed. Contracts must be followed.

But, you say, if one of the parties is a dead person, then violating the term of the contract would not be an infringement on any living person's rights! Violate away! No one's around to press charges! Right?

Not quite. For one thing, companies specializing in fulfilling contracts with the dead, such as trusts, have a reputation to uphold. If they start violating their trustee's clear written contracts, who else is going to entrust them with their stuff? No one, that's who.

As the second line of defense (even if reputation didn't matter or there were no such thing as trusts) it's pretty simple for the man to set up a contract playing two third parties off of each other, so that even when he is gone and thus no longer able to enforce the terms, there is someone else still around who is.

I'd argue that once you are dead, you no longer have any rights, since you don't exist. Your heirs have rights, but you don't. You're dead.

I see no reason why anyone should be able to use violence against me in order to make me follow the wishes of a person who is now dead and doesn't even care...
 
I don't quite agree with that.
Oh, really? Why not?


I'd argue that once you are dead, you no longer have any rights, since you don't exist.
Your spirit still continues on. You, the essential you, still exist. And don't you believe in the resurrection? If so, of course you can see that a dead man is just like someone who has gone on a very long journey, but will eventually return.

Your heirs have rights, but you don't. You're dead.
What is an heir? What rights do they have? People who you give your stuff to. They have rights to your stuff? Only what rights you give them. It's not theirs, after all. You can give or withhold whatever rights regarding that stuff to them that you wish. Other rights you may give to someone else. Other rights you may refuse to give anyone at all.

I see no reason why anyone should be able to use violence against me in order to make me follow the wishes of a person who is now dead and doesn't even care...
Think harder! Focus! Did you miss my whole last paragraph? If person B and person C have a contract, person B can rightly use violence against person C to force them to hold up their end of a bargain. The fact that Person A, who set it all up, is long gone on his journey to the Spirit World, does not matter.
 
judejin, I did not see you respond to my post. I've copied and pasted it again for you:

Well I like your essay. And your logic seems somewhat sound at first.

But your premise with regard to suicide, even if the stated portion of it is correct, contains a hidden premise that isn't correct: Your logic presumes that one does not ever have the right to choose to give up one's own rights.

I might have the right to remain silent when arrested, but I can still choose to speak if I feel like it.
I might have the right to defend my property, but instead of shooting the thief when I catch him, I might choose to let him run away with the food he stole, and tell him never to come back because next time I might not be in such a good mood.
I might have the right to kick out a tenant who didn't pay their rent, but I might choose to let them stay another month on the promise they will start paying up the arrearage they owe.

I could think of numerous other examples, but I think you get the point. Your logic assumes that I do not have the right to choose whether or not to exercise my rights. But that assumption isn't correct. We are not somehow bound or required to always have to enjoy all our rights.

So the right to life is like any other right. We are free to choose to suspend or end our rights, including our own life, whenever we feel like it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?420108-the-right-to-commit-suicide-is-not-a-RIGHT!-everyone-should-understand-this!&p=5106619&viewfull=1#post5106619

What do you say?
 
judejin, I did not see you respond to my post. I've copied and pasted it again for you:

Well I like your essay. And your logic seems somewhat sound at first.

But your premise with regard to suicide, even if the stated portion of it is correct, contains a hidden premise that isn't correct: Your logic presumes that one does not ever have the right to choose to give up one's own rights.

I might have the right to remain silent when arrested, but I can still choose to speak if I feel like it.
I might have the right to defend my property, but instead of shooting the thief when I catch him, I might choose to let him run away with the food he stole, and tell him never to come back because next time I might not be in such a good mood.
I might have the right to kick out a tenant who didn't pay their rent, but I might choose to let them stay another month on the promise they will start paying up the arrearage they owe.

I could think of numerous other examples, but I think you get the point. Your logic assumes that I do not have the right to choose whether or not to exercise my rights. But that assumption isn't correct. We are not somehow bound or required to always have to enjoy all our rights.

So the right to life is like any other right. We are free to choose to suspend or end our rights, including our own life, whenever we feel like it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...rstand-this!&p=5106619&viewfull=1#post5106619

What do you say?

RIGHTS are everything you can do to yourself and your properties without hurting others IN ORDER TO LIVE.

SUICIDE is TO DIE. so SUICIDE is by definition NOT a RIGHT. it is SELF-DESTRUCTION, SELF-TERMINATION.

A RIGHT that TERMINATES ALL RIGHTS is contradictory logically.

SUICIDE is fundamentally different from all of your examples, which are choices you make to make yourself LIVE better.

you can decide to self-terminate, to commit suicide. but when you do that, you're not exercising a RIGHT. you're TERMINATING yourself, TERMINATING all of your rights, giving up your RIGHTS. so yes, you can give up your RIGHTS by committing suicide.
but you just CANNOT say that you HAVE the RIGHT to terminate all your rights, which is contradictory logically.
all you can say is i can give up my life and all my rights by self-destruction.

SUICIDE is NOT a CRIME, because it doesn't hurt other people. but since SUICIDE is NOT a RIGHT, anyone can intervene with your SUICIDE. he won't be guilty of anything.

i don't even want to judge SUICIDE morally. all i'm trying to prove is that SUICIDE is NOT a RIGHT. i believe most people got this WRONG.

when we agree that SUICIDE is NOT a RIGHT. we may reconsider whether euthanasia, assisted suicide is a RIGHT or NOT.


Thank you very much for polite discussion. there're too many people calling me names because of what i say.
 
I have to disagree.

None of my examples would make me live better; in all of them I am giving up my rights by my own choice, and doing so does not benefit me in any way. I simply do it because I want to, in every one of those examples.

If my rights are not mine to suspend, end, or give up whenever I want, then they are not "my" rights to begin with.

If they are mine, then they are mine to do with as I please, and that includes terminating them if I so choose.

My rights belong to me and no one else, so you cannot tell me I cannot make a decision to terminate my own life, just because it would also terminate all my rights. If you do try to tell me that, then you're saying these rights are not truly mine to begin with.
 
Your logic presumes that one does not ever have the right to choose to give up one's own rights.

A quick note: One may never choose to give up one's Right. Rights are inalienable. What you are describing is the choice to not exercise one's Rights.
 
RIGHTS are everything you can do to yourself and your properties without hurting others IN ORDER TO LIVE.

"In order to live"? Cite your source, please? The motivation for one's Rights are specifically private, otherwise they are conditional privileges. It's no one's business but my own what I choose to read, or what deity to worship. If I choose to make a political statement by offing myself, you believe government may alienate me from my Right?
 
anyone can intervene with your SUICIDE. he won't be guilty of anything.

Maybe, but if the person whose life you “save” then retaliates against your body and/or property in a way you surely won't like, and then checks out successfully, there will be nothing you can do about that retaliation.
 
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Maybe, but if the person whose life you “save” then retaliates against your body and/or property in a way you surely won't like, and then checks out successfully, there will be nothing you can do about it.


Perhaps a deeper stripping away of noise elements is needed because this thread is going nowhere except into utter stupidity.

What do we mean when we say that we are "equal"? The answer as it applies to the use of the term at hand is nothing more and nothing less an an equal property claim to life itself. My claim to life is neither greater nor lesser than that of anyone else or of all humanity taken as a whole against my own. This is the Cardinal, Prime, or First Postulate and it is the foundation upon which all proper human relations are based. Without it, proper human relations cannot be formulated in a principled and logically reasoned manner except by accident, in which case it becomes impossible to demonstrate whether that at which one has arrived is in fact correct.

A "claim" in this sense of the term can only apply to property because the very conceptual fabric underlying it is that of possession. My claim to life, being equal in conceptual and moral force to that of all others, taken separately or as a whole, must of necessity be a claim to property of some form. The object to which the claim is attached is my life and because it is claimed, it is therefore possessed and is thus property.

Having solidly established the property nature and status of my life to myself by virtue of my rightful claim thereto, it follows naturally, directly, necessarily, logically, intuitively, reasonably, axiomatically, and apodictically that I hold every authority, moral and otherwise, to keep or otherwise dispose of it as I may choose without unwelcome interference from outside parties.

QED

Thus demonstrated, I am able to further show that any argument to the contrary, if accepted, leads in principle to, or otherwise necessitates the acceptance of, every imaginable tyranny. This cannot be avoided by any means whatsoever. This assertion is readily demonstrable against all contrary arguments, it's indomitable power residing in its very fabric vis-a-vis all others. It is obvious due to the fundamental logical structure of the relationship between this argument and all others, which is of the variety commonly known as "exclusive or". Another assertion I often quote of precisely the same structure is, "one is either free or is something else." In fundamental logic this is known as the principle of the exclusion of the middle. In computer science it is called the "exclusive or" (XOR). X is either X or it is not X.

My life is either mine or it is not. If it is not, whose is it? Is it mine partially? If so, who are the other owners and by what virtue do they stake claim to my life? Are their claims superior to mine? Are they equal? Are they inferior? How is this determined? Who determines it? By what authority do they make this determination? Are they sole owners of my life? If so, by what virtue? Who owns their lives? And the litany of questions can grow virtually without end when one claims each man is not the sole proprietor of his own life.

Let us look at it from a slightly different perspective.

It is commonly understood that one holds the inalienable right to self defense. However, when we talk of "self defense", of what exactly do we speak? Certainly the defense of life and limb, and as far as that goes we are correct, but there is more to it - something of a more radical nature that is most often left undiscovered and therefore unsaid. When one defend's himself against mortal attack, for example, we all acknowledge he is defending his life from being taken from him (his property). But if we look at it with a bit more care we see that once again we are defending a property right, and arguably the most important one we possess. Our property rights subsume our lives and the integrity and health of our bodies. If I am justified in defending my property rights, then that justification must extend to any disposition of that property, whether it be to prevent it from being forcibly taken from me or forcibly retained. If I am justified in using deadly force to retain my life in the face of the dangers posed by unwanted third party interference, I am equally just in defending the same right as it applies to relinquishing that property. Therefore, if I am decided upon killing myself and another attempts to forcibly prevent me from relinquishing life, I am well within my rights to take whatever actions I may deem necessary and fit in retaliation against such interference and in defense of the most fundamental property claim that I hold.

Please God let this off-the-rails thread now be over.
 
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Oh, really? Why not?

Because there's more to freedom than just contracts.

Your spirit still continues on. You, the essential you, still exist. And don't you believe in the resurrection?

I do, but that's a personal belief, not one that should have any influence on law.

With my views of the afterlife, however, one is either in eternal bliss or eternal torment, in neither case would one really care what happened to his earthy stuff.
If so, of course you can see that a dead man is just like someone who has gone on a very long journey, but will eventually return.
But not to their worldly goods.
What is an heir? What rights do they have? People who you give your stuff to. They have rights to your stuff? Only what rights you give them. It's not theirs, after all. You can give or withhold whatever rights regarding that stuff to them that you wish. Other rights you may give to someone else. Other rights you may refuse to give anyone at all.

Think harder! Focus! Did you miss my whole last paragraph? If person B and person C have a contract, person B can rightly use violence against person C to force them to hold up their end of a bargain. The fact that Person A, who set it all up, is long gone on his journey to the Spirit World, does not matter.

I don't disagree with this.

Lett me put it more simply. Person A demands that when he dies, all his gold be buried underground and never touched. Person A entrusts his gold to Person B. Person A dies. Person B takes the gold and spends it.

I don't think that that's really something that should be illegal. Person A is dead, he no longer has any rights... to anything. Yes, he exists either in heaven or hell in my opinion, but that's outside of secular law and simply irrelevant to the question at hand.

I don't really believe that non-title transfer contracts should be enforced anyways...
 
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