the right to commit suicide is not a RIGHT! - everyone should understand this!

[judejin]

Regardless of whether or not someone has a right to kill himself, you most certainly do NOT have a right to intervene.

but that's not the argument here. we're arguing whether suicide is a RIGHT.

 

[TheTexan]

but that's not the argument here. we're arguing whether suicide is a RIGHT.

I have a right to do all that which does not interfere with the rights of others. That includes putting a bullet in my brain, if I were to so desire.

 

[judejin]

If I try to kill myself and you try and stop me half way through and I end up in agonizing pain instead of a peaceful death, you will find out exactly how much of a "right" it is, believe me that

let's imagine exactly such a scenario. someone was stopped in his suicide attempt half way thru and he became paralyzed for life. can this person charge the person saving him for damage? this is an interesting scenario.

but in my logic, the person saving him is innocent. because this is similar to saving someone from a car crash, the person saved is not dead but becomes permanently disabled. but the hero definitely is at fault here!

in your logic, the person saving him is responsible for this undesirable consequence. but the judge will just say,well, if death is what you wish for, why punish a man who tried to save you? you can just go ahead to commit suicide again and leave this earth alone. but remember to do it when nobody is around!

 

[judejin]

I have a right to do all that which does not interfere with the rights of others. That includes putting a bullet in my brain, if I were to so desire.

yes, of course you can. but when you do so, you're not exercising a RIGHT. you're performing self-destruction.

RIGHTS, by definition, only pertains to everything that's required to LIVE. suicide is to DIE, thus it is not a right. that's why anyone trying to save you is NOT violating your RIGHTS.

 

[TheTexan]

let's imagine exactly such a scenario. someone was stopped in his suicide attempt half way thru and he became paralyzed for life. can this person charge the person saving him for damage? this is an interesting scenario.

but in my logic, the person saving him is innocent. because this is life saving someone from a car crash, the person saved is not dead but becomes permanently disabled. but the hero definitely is at fault here!

in your logic, the person saving him is responsible for this undesirable consequence. but the judge will just say,well, if death is what you wish for, why punish a man who tried to save you? you can just go ahead to commit suicide again and leave this earth alone. but remember to do it when nobody is around!

If interfering caused him pain, then he is entitled to damages. Regardless of whether or not he's putting a bullet in his brain the next day. Either his heirs will get the money, or the extra cash helps him like life enough to want to live to spend it.

But yes, if you interfere with a suicide without causing any pain, I don't see any harm done. Interfering physically would still be assault&battery, but if I were a juror, I personally wouldn't convict - as long as no harm or significant pain was done.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

but that's not the argument here. we're arguing whether suicide is a RIGHT.

You agree that individuals own their respective bodies, yes? A person can do what he likes with his body to the extent he doesn't infringe on others' rights. We've established quite clearly who owns who-the self owner can dispose of himself (commit suicide) whenever he wants. The only exceptions would be a minor child or other legal dependents because the parent guardian by nature has certain rights with regard to the child/person.

 

[erowe1]

I have a right to do all that which does not interfere with the rights of others. That includes putting a bullet in my brain, if I were to so desire.

How do you know this?

 

[TheTexan]

yes, of course you can. but when you do so, you're not exercising a RIGHT. you're performing self-destruction.

RIGHTS, by definition, only pertains to everything that's required to LIVE. suicide is to DIE, thus it is not a right. that's why anyone trying to save you is NOT violating your RIGHTS.

You didn't quite understand my point. Individuals do not have a specific set of positive rights. They have the right to do everything that which does not interfere with others' rights.

Because you most certainly do NOT have the right to interfere with someone's suicide, it therefore means a person does have the right to commit suicide without interference.

Look at it this way. If you were to physically use force against someone who was trying to commit suicide, and he defended himself against your aggressions, and you ended up accidentally killing him, I would still convict you of manslaughter, because you had no right to use force against that individual.

 

[TheTexan]

How do you know this?

Is there a specific right that says I can jerk off in the shower?

 

[liberty2897]

While I wish that it would never come to suicide for any person, I believe it is the individuals decision.

https://gawker.com/i-am-sorry-that-it-has-come-to-this-a-soldiers-last-534538357

“I Am Sorry That It Has Come to This”: A Soldier's Last Words
Daniel Somers was a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom. He was part of Task Force Lightning, an intelligence unit. In 2004-2005, he was mainly assigned to a Tactical Human-Intelligence Team (THT) in Baghdad, Iraq, where he ran more than 400 combat missions as a machine gunner in the turret of a Humvee, interviewed countless Iraqis ranging from concerned citizens to community leaders and and government officials, and interrogated dozens of insurgents and terrorist suspects. In 2006-2007, Daniel worked with Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) through his former unit in Mosul where he ran the Northern Iraq Intelligence Center. His official role was as a senior analyst for the Levant (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel, and part of Turkey). Daniel suffered greatly from PTSD and had been diagnosed with traumatic brain injury and several other war-related conditions. On June 10, 2013, Daniel wrote the following letter to his family before taking his life. Daniel was 30 years old. His wife and family have given permission to publish it.

I am sorry that it has come to this.

The fact is, for as long as I can remember my motivation for getting up every day has been so that you would not have to bury me. As things have continued to get worse, it has become clear that this alone is not a sufficient reason to carry on. The fact is, I am not getting better, I am not going to get better, and I will most certainly deteriorate further as time goes on. From a logical standpoint, it is better to simply end things quickly and let any repercussions from that play out in the short term than to drag things out into the long term.

You will perhaps be sad for a time, but over time you will forget and begin to carry on. Far better that than to inflict my growing misery upon you for years and decades to come, dragging you down with me. It is because I love you that I can not do this to you. You will come to see that it is a far better thing as one day after another passes during which you do not have to worry about me or even give me a second thought. You will find that your world is better without me in it.

I really have been trying to hang on, for more than a decade now. Each day has been a testament to the extent to which I cared, suffering unspeakable horror as quietly as possible so that you could feel as though I was still here for you. In truth, I was nothing more than a prop, filling space so that my absence would not be noted. In truth, I have already been absent for a long, long time.

My body has become nothing but a cage, a source of pain and constant problems. The illness I have has caused me pain that not even the strongest medicines could dull, and there is no cure. All day, every day a screaming agony in every nerve ending in my body. It is nothing short of torture. My mind is a wasteland, filled with visions of incredible horror, unceasing depression, and crippling anxiety, even with all of the medications the doctors dare give. Simple things that everyone else takes for granted are nearly impossible for me. I can not laugh or cry. I can barely leave the house. I derive no pleasure from any activity. Everything simply comes down to passing time until I can sleep again. Now, to sleep forever seems to be the most merciful thing.

You must not blame yourself. The simple truth is this: During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of.

To force me to do these things and then participate in the ensuing coverup is more than any government has the right to demand. Then, the same government has turned around and abandoned me. They offer no help, and actively block the pursuit of gaining outside help via their corrupt agents at the DEA. Any blame rests with them.

Beyond that, there are the host of physical illnesses that have struck me down again and again, for which they also offer no help. There might be some progress by now if they had not spent nearly twenty years denying the illness that I and so many others were exposed to. Further complicating matters is the repeated and severe brain injuries to which I was subjected, which they also seem to be expending no effort into understanding. What is known is that each of these should have been cause enough for immediate medical attention, which was not rendered.

Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. All under the guise of a completely manufactured “overprescribing epidemic,” which stands in stark relief to all of the legitimate research, which shows the opposite to be true. Perhaps, with the right medication at the right doses, I could have bought a couple of decent years, but even that is too much to ask from a regime built upon the idea that suffering is noble and relief is just for the weak.

However, when the challenges facing a person are already so great that all but the weakest would give up, these extra factors are enough to push a person over the edge.

Is it any wonder then that the latest figures show 22 veterans killing themselves each day? That is more veterans than children killed at Sandy Hook, every single day. Where are the huge policy initiatives? Why isn’t the president standing with those families at the state of the union? Perhaps because we were not killed by a single lunatic, but rather by his own system of dehumanization, neglect, and indifference.

It leaves us to where all we have to look forward to is constant pain, misery, poverty, and dishonor. I assure you that, when the numbers do finally drop, it will merely be because those who were pushed the farthest are all already dead.

And for what? Bush’s religious lunacy? Cheney’s ever growing fortune and that of his corporate friends? Is this what we destroy lives for

Since then, I have tried everything to fill the void. I tried to move into a position of greater power and influence to try and right some of the wrongs. I deployed again, where I put a huge emphasis on saving lives. The fact of the matter, though, is that any new lives saved do not replace those who were murdered. It is an exercise in futility.

Then, I pursued replacing destruction with creation. For a time this provided a distraction, but it could not last. The fact is that any kind of ordinary life is an insult to those who died at my hand. How can I possibly go around like everyone else while the widows and orphans I created continue to struggle? If they could see me sitting here in suburbia, in my comfortable home working on some music project they would be outraged, and rightfully so.

I thought perhaps I could make some headway with this film project, maybe even directly appealing to those I had wronged and exposing a greater truth, but that is also now being taken away from me. I fear that, just as with everything else that requires the involvement of people who can not understand by virtue of never having been there, it is going to fall apart as careers get in the way.

The last thought that has occurred to me is one of some kind of final mission. It is true that I have found that I am capable of finding some kind of reprieve by doing things that are worthwhile on the scale of life and death. While it is a nice thought to consider doing some good with my skills, experience, and killer instinct, the truth is that it isn’t realistic. First, there are the logistics of financing and equipping my own operation, then there is the near certainty of a grisly death, international incidents, and being branded a terrorist in the media that would follow. What is really stopping me, though, is that I simply am too sick to be effective in the field anymore. That, too, has been taken from me.

Thus, I am left with basically nothing. Too trapped in a war to be at peace, too damaged to be at war. Abandoned by those who would take the easy route, and a liability to those who stick it out—and thus deserve better. So you see, not only am I better off dead, but the world is better without me in it

This is what brought me to my actual final mission. Not suicide, but a mercy killing. I know how to kill, and I know how to do it so that there is no pain whatsoever. It was quick, and I did not suffer. And above all, now I am free. I feel no more pain. I have no more nightmares or flashbacks or hallucinations. I am no longer constantly depressed or afraid or worried

I am free.

I ask that you be happy for me for that. It is perhaps the best break I could have hoped for. Please accept this and be glad for me.

Daniel Somers

 

[erowe1]

Is there a specific right that says I can jerk off in the shower?

I don't know. Are you going to answer my question though? You seemed very confident about your right to kill yourself. What's the basis of that confidence?

 

[tttppp]

i'd say anyone who loves you enough and want to keep you fresh instead of frozen can take you to a better treatment, even by force to break the contract that's going to freeze you. in today's technology freezing means death, there's chance that in the future they may unfreeze and wake you up again. but it's not 100% certain.

at least you see, these issues are complicated.

You arent familiar with our health industry. It sucks. Usually you are stuck with whatever you got and thats not going to change any decade soon.

 

[TheTexan]

I don't know. Are you going to answer my question though? You seemed very confident about your right to kill yourself. What's the basis of that confidence?

The confidence in my belief that I have the right to do that which does not interfere with the rights of others? If you don't agree with that statement, I believe the onus is on you to prove that I don't have that right...

 

[erowe1]

The confidence in my belief that I have the right to do that which does not interfere with the rights of others? If you don't agree with that statement, I believe the onus is on you to prove that I don't have that right...

I think the onus is on both of us.

If you're really so confident that you have that right, then shouldn't you have a reason for that? You asserted it as though it's a rule that others should accept. And if you're going to say that someone else would be wrong to interfere with your suicide, then you definitely think others should accept that rule. But why should they?

 

[otherone]

The confidence in my belief that I have the right to do that which does not interfere with the rights of others? .

It's not just a belief...it's common sense. Ultimately, we only own that which we have the authority to destroy. Does a Buddhist monk have the "Right" to set himself ablaze in political protest? Frankly, suicide is THE quintessential Right, as important as the Right to self-defense.

 

[otherone]

And if you're going to say that someone else would be wrong to interfere with your suicide, then you definitely think others should accept that rule. But why should they?

Does someone else have the "Right" to interfere with your suicide?

 

[TheTexan]

But why should they?

Hopefully because they have a respect for individuals and their choices. But unfortunately that so often is not the case.

 

[erowe1]

Does someone else have the "Right" to interfere with your suicide?

Yes, I believe so.

 

[erowe1]

It's not just a belief...it's common sense. Ultimately, we only own that which we have the authority to destroy. Does a Buddhist monk have the "Right" to set himself ablaze in political protest? Frankly, suicide is THE quintessential Right, as important as the Right to self-defense.

What do you base this on?

It can't be common sense if other people can't understand it. And I definitely can't.

 

[otherone]

Yes, I believe so.

You may believe that someone has a moral obligation, or a moral imperative, or is acting selflessly from compassion, but that is not a Right...at least not a negative Right.