the right to commit suicide is not a RIGHT! - everyone should understand this!

[helmuth_hubener]

this is why someone trying to save you is not violating your rights, instead he's stopping you from self-destruction.

What if he believes death is not the end? What if he believes in an afterlife? Just as he has the right to decide when to move on to different phases of his life, such as to stop with his schooling and enter the workforce, just so he has the right to do this. He would see it as being done with one phase of life (mortality) and ready to proceed with the next phase (whatever he believes will come next).

Now you may think he's wrong. You may see it as self-destructive. But people are allowed to have their own opinions. You cannot force them to believe what you believe. The fellow who is dropping out of school, his mother may believe, may even "know for a fact" that dropping out would be self-destructive. He's throwing away his future! But he has a right to disregard her knowledge and self-destruct anyway (assuming he's an independent adult, not living under her roof, etc.). Just so, the suicider has a right to disregard your supposed wisdom about what he should and shouldn't do and keep his own counsel.

It's hard to believe you don't understand this.

Are you a native English speaker, by the way? Your username is judejin -- are you Chinese?

you can burn down your house for some purpose, but someone who try to put out the fire is not violating your rights either. you can of course insist with a gun in hand that this person leave your house alone. in that case, nobody would intervene.

See, maybe this is the core of your problem -- IT ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT, IS A VIOLATION OF RIGHTS TO PREVENT THAT POOR MAN FROM BURNING DOWN HIS HOME!!! How is anything supposed to get demolished or thrown away in your world? How is anything supposed to get done? What kind of crazy world are you proposing? It would be like the whole world has become the stupid Historical District, on steroids.

Demolition is a right! Destruction is a right! What one uninformed outsider sees as destruction may well be part of a larger constructive plan. Your idea to outlaw demolition and suicide and anything else you see as destructive is totally loony!

GOD! i'm amazed that so many people got the wrong definition of rights without realizing it!

And I am amazed at your complete and total looniness!

"Don't throw away that plastic bottle! That would be destructive! I am going to force you to reuse or recycle it! Oh, you're holding a gun to my head so that I don't, so I guess I won't for now, but only because you have a gun pointed at me. Otherwise, I'm totally correct and morally right to forcibly prevent you from doing this horrible thing."

 

[Christian Liberty]

See, maybe this is the core of your problem -- IT ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT, IS A VIOLATION OF RIGHTS TO PREVENT THAT POOR MAN FROM BURNING DOWN HIS HOME!!! How is anything supposed to get demolished or thrown away in your world? How is anything supposed to get done? What kind of crazy world are you proposing? It would be like the whole world has become the stupid Historical District, on steroids.

Demolition is a right! Destruction is a right! What one uninformed outsider sees as destruction may well be part of a larger constructive plan. Your idea to outlaw demolition and suicide and anything else you see as destructive is totally loony!

Yeah, I'm with you here. Unless someone is stuck inside the house, if you burn down your house and everyone knows that its you doing it... yeah you have a right to do that and someone who stops you is committing a crime.

For the reasons I described, I do not think stopping someone from committing suicide is NORMALLY a crime...

On the other hand, generally when a building is on fire it isn't on purpose, so if someone genuinely did not know, and has no reason to have known, that the fire is deliberately set, I'd say he isn't responsible.

 

[Ender]

Given that "not knowing what is best for oneself" - as judged by other people - is very often the basis for (or a significant part of) other people coming to conclusions such as that one is "depressed and mentally unstable," there is a very distinct danger or running around in circles with this justification for forcibly intervening in the decisions of others (and not just in the matter of suicide). "You apparently do not know what is best for you because you are deemed to be depressed and mentally unstable - but you are deemed to be depressed and mentally stable because you apparently do not know what is best for you" ...



So does excessive drinking (of alcohol). Or being a philanderer. Or being a jerk. Or being an irresponsible "dreamer." Or being any number of other things.

Just as you have no right to force other people to stop doing or being those things, you have no right to force the would-be-suicide to live.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

None of your examples can touch the amount of pain that comes- and never leaves- when a loved one commits suicide. Most people commit suicide because they feel they are a failure or that no one cares, NOT because they are trying to establish a right of property ownership.

Hopefully a loved one of yours never tries or succeeds in committing suicide.

It will be a burden that YOU will carry all of your life.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Within the context to which I was responding, it most certainly does violate self-ownership for you to stop osan from committing suicide.

Additionally, your logical fails - because marijuana use is not a crime, it is not a gross imbalance to turn around and say "saving" someone from marijuana IS a crime, where "saving someone" implies direct physical intervention, as was suggested with osans original example.

Besides, where do you get off stopping someone from committing suicide in the circumstances as they've been described - a fully informed person making a conscious decision to end their life? You presume to know that there are no circumstances under which this person might reasonably have determined to have preferred ending his life to continue living? I can think of several without the least effort. osan's logic is correct, as is my elaboration that intervention in such a way is the seed of the state.

The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions.

Marijuana use may be harmful,but it doesn't outright kill the user. Its not even in the same ballpark as suicide. Although, having a law that prevents suicide does logically lead to laws against marijuana and other "Unhealthy" items, and so I completely oppose them.

I've already proven, however, that in the vast majority of circumstances, a "hero" or whatever you want to call him that saves a would be suicider, its impossible to truly punish the "hero" in most cases, and unless the would be suicider does end up killing himself, he has no grounds with which to sue (With the one bizarre life insurance exception being noted.)

Do you agree with Osan that someone who saves a would be suicider deserves to be tortured?

 

[Ender]

Given that "not knowing what is best for oneself" - as judged by other people - is very often the basis for (or a significant part of) other people coming to conclusions such as that one is "depressed and mentally unstable," there is a very distinct danger or running around in circles with this justification for forcibly intervening in the decisions of others (and not just in the matter of suicide). "You apparently do not know what is best for you because you are deemed to be depressed and mentally unstable - but you are deemed to be depressed and mentally stable because you apparently do not know what is best for you" ...



So does excessive drinking (of alcohol). Or being a philanderer. Or being a jerk. Or being an irresponsible "dreamer." Or being any number of other things.

Just as you have no right to force other people to stop doing or being those things, you have no right to force the would-be-suicide to live.

Obviously, you haven't had this experience yet. I pray you never will-

Karma's a bitch.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

As a practical matter, if we wanted to reduce the number of suicides, one good step would be to help people become better financially educated. I had a landlord I was renting from go bankrupt (clearly he wasn't charging me enough rent! ) and then eventually commit suicide. And I just had another soon-to-be landlord commit suicide soon before I became a tenant. His business was losing money I think, and in any case definitely seems to be in bad shape.

So both of these suicides were directly financially-related. They were overwhelmed by their money problems. If people knew better how to manage their money, that would happen less often.

 

[Occam's Banana]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

None of your examples can touch the amount of pain that comes- and never leaves- when a loved one commits suicide. Most people commit suicide because they feel they are a failure or that no one cares, NOT because they are trying to establish a right of property ownership.

Hopefully a loved one of yours never tries or succeeds in committing suicide.

It will be a burden that YOU will carry all of your life.

Obviously, you haven't had this experience yet. I pray you never will-

Karma's a bitch.

*shrug* Non-responsive replies are non-responsive.

Two of my cousins - both of whom I grew up with and was close to - have committed suicide.

So fuck you and your presumptuous, arrogant, pompous & self-righteously emotionalistic contempt for anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[Ender]

*shrug* Non-responsive replies are non-responsive.

Two of my cousins - both of whom I grew up with and was close to - have committed suicide.

So fuck you and your presumptuous, arrogant, pompous & self-righteously emotionalistic contempt for anyone who disagrees with you.

Wait.

I'M the one with presumptuous, arrogant, pompous & self-righteously emotionalistic contempt for anyone who disagrees with me?

I don't think I've called you any names- ever- and I have agreed and rep'd you many times.

Because we do not agree on this subject does not make ME the emotional one- I'm not calling YOU names.

 

[A Son of Liberty]

Uh... WRONG.

IF YOU ARE DEPRESSED AND MENTALLY UNSTABLE, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU.

Suicide also hurts those around you- sometimes beyond repair.

Says you.

Listen, I'm not trying to antagonize survivors of people who've committed suicide, but the fact remains ultimately that their life is their life. None of us have the right to demand that another person continue to live against their wishes. We may implore them; we may coax, and goad, and prompt them, but we may not force them to live against their own wishes.

 

[A Son of Liberty]

Wait.

I'M the one with presumptuous, arrogant, pompous & self-righteously emotionalistic contempt for anyone who disagrees with me?

I don't think I've called you any names- ever- and I have agreed and rep'd you many times.

Because we do not agree on this subject does not make ME the emotional one- I'm not calling YOU names.

How are people so oblivious!? NNTA is obviously telling you, in direct refutation of your comments, that he has personal, emotional experience with this topic, and that it is not just some philosophical discussion to him. The "fuck you" was a response to your presumption that he had no experience with suicide.

How are people so oblivious??

 

[Ender]

Says you.

Listen, I'm not trying to antagonize survivors of people who've committed suicide, but the fact remains ultimately that their life is their life. None of us have the right to demand that another person continue to live against their wishes. We may implore them; we may coax, and goad, and prompt them, but we may not force them to live against their own wishes.

So, every decision you have made in your life, for good or bad, you've stuck with and never changed your mind? Never thought "whoops- that was a mistake"? Never were happy if someone else convinced you otherwise?

Death is pretty permanent- no chance to think "Hmmmm.....maybe not...."

 

[MelissaWV]

So, every decision you have made in your life, for good or bad, you've stuck with and never changed your mind? Never thought "whoops- that was a mistake"? Never were happy if someone else convinced you otherwise?

Death is pretty permanent- no chance to think "Hmmmm.....maybe not...."

Right, but if you know the person well then you've already had the chance to "convince them" not to kill themselves. Sometimes you'll find out decades later that you did just that. But sometimes life really sucks just that much, and it's up to the person killing themselves to make that determination, not someone else.

 

[tttppp]

give me one freaking example, please!?

What if you had a terminal condition and wanted to have your body frozen?

 

[judejin]

Rights ONLY exist in regards to an individual's interaction with others. If, for example, you were the last man on earth...what Rights would you have? Would it matter?
You do understand that self-censorship does not violate one's freedom of speech, right?

i do understand self-censorship does not violate one's freedom of speech.
i do understand suicide does not violate one's freedom to live.

but you DO NOT understand someone else saving your life is not violating your freedom to live!

your analogy becomes a weapon against you! do you see the flaw in your logic!?

 

[DamianTV]

rights come with life and end with life. when one commits suicide, one is terminating one's life and terminating his rights to life at the same time! so a hero who comes to save your life is NOT violating your right to commit suicide, a NON-right. rather, he's saving your life, restoring your rights to life at the same time. a saved person cannot go to a court to sue the hero! the court will throw out the case immediately. why? if not for the hero, you'll be a dead body! one has every right to handle one's body to the very point that one's life is not endangered. thus taking drugs and putting on tattoo are valid rights! but suicide is not! thus folks who are for euthanasia should not invoke the right to finish own life as the legit argument. since i can't find a legit reason to rationalize euthanasia without great conflicts of interests, i don't support euthanasia. this is all my essay is trying to say! please focus on my logic. i know you hate my conclusion. trying to prove that taking own life is a valid right first. i'm confident you can't! http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...nt-on-Ron-Paul-s-Pro-Life-and-Anti-Euthanasia

Who are you to decide what I can and can not do with MY life? Am I your Property? Do you OWN me? How dare you to even think you have the RIGHT to tell me what MY RIGHTS are and are NOT. What ever I do with my own life is MY business and no one but me has any claim what so ever.

 

[judejin]

What if you had a terminal condition and wanted to have your body frozen?

i'd say anyone who loves you enough and want to keep you fresh instead of frozen can take you to a better treatment, even by force to break the contract that's going to freeze you. in today's technology freezing means death, there's chance that in the future they may unfreeze and wake you up again. but it's not 100% certain.

at least you see, these issues are complicated.

 

[judejin]

Rights ONLY exist in regards to an individual's interaction with others. If, for example, you were the last man on earth...what Rights would you have? Would it matter?
You do understand that self-censorship does not violate one's freedom of speech, right?

"Rights ONLY exist in regards to an individual's interaction with others."
RIGHTS also pertains to actions and titles to own body and properties without which you cannot LIVE.
suicide is to DIE. so suicide is not a RIGHT by definition.
that's why anyone who saves you is NOT violating your rights to LIVE. Rather, he's helping you LIVE.

if you want to die, die alone when nobody is around. if anyone is around, i'm sure he'll try to stop you from hanging yourself even by force and he's not committing a crime against you! exactly because anyone can intervene with your suicide, suicide is NOT a right.

but fundamentally, suicide is not a RIGHT by definition because rights pertains to all that's required to LIVE.

why is it so difficult for people to understand suicide is not a RIGHT. i don't understand!

 

[TheTexan]

Regardless of whether or not someone has a right to kill himself, you most certainly do NOT have a right to intervene.

 

[judejin]

Right, but if you know the person well then you've already had the chance to "convince them" not to kill themselves. Sometimes you'll find out decades later that you did just that. But sometimes life really sucks just that much, and it's up to the person killing themselves to make that determination, not someone else.

of course i agree it's up to this person to decide whether he wants to live or die. that's not the argument here.
all i'm saying is do this suicide thing when nobody is around. otherwise the suicide attempt may be stopped by someone who tries to save you. and he's not violating your rights!

just think about why most successful suicides are done alone when nobody is around. because the person knows if anyone finds out, he'll be stopped!

if a right be default can be and will be stopped by anyone with immunity, is it still a right by definition?

rights pertains to everything that's required to LIVE.
suicide is to DIE.
thus suicide does not qualify as a RIGHT. it is a NON-RIGHT.

 

[TheTexan]

of course i agree it's up to this person to decide whether he wants to live or die. that's not the argument here.
all i'm saying is do this suicide thing when nobody is around. otherwise the suicide attempt may be stopped by someone who tries to save you. and he's not violating your rights!

just think about why most successful suicides are done alone when nobody is around. because the person knows if anyone finds out, he'll be stopped!

if a right be default can be and will be stopped by anyone with immunity, is it still a right by definition?

rights pertains to everything that's required to LIVE.
suicide is to DIE.
thus suicide does not qualify as a RIGHT. it is a NON-RIGHT.

If I try to kill myself and you try and stop me half way through and I end up in agonizing pain instead of a peaceful death, you will find out exactly how much of a "right" it is, believe me that