The “Question” of a Woman’s Right of Choice Shouldn’t Be a Question at All!

[AgentOrange]

Thank you for your courtesy in reading it and granting that I have given it much thought, as well as for not trying to attach more tired-assed labels. Just what we don't need, here and everywhere else. People learn labels and confuse the label for the thing. Always.

I agree. Many people (on both sides of this issue, as well as others) have a position but don't really know why they have that position (other than their religion, or parents, or best friends, etc. have that position.) When people start thinking through issues and listening to the other side, then they are more able to see possible compromises (and yes, I think there are compromises with the abortion issue, ones that will not make either side totally happy, but would be better for society than disenfranchising half the population by ignoring their view on the issue.)

 

[Ian MacLeod]

I agree. Many people (on both sides of this issue, as well as others) have a position but don't really know why they have that position (other than their religion, or parents, or best friends, etc. have that position.) When people start thinking through issues and listening to the other side, then they are more able to see possible compromises (and yes, I think there are compromises with the abortion issue, ones that will not make either side totally happy, but would be better for society than disenfranchising half the population by ignoring their view on the issue.)

I can't help thinking that at basis, the Christian Right is the foundation of this argument. In their magical universe, they feel obligated to stop everyone else's "immorality", and punish those who refuse. They also believe - and I've heard this so many times I couldn't count them - that if "sex, drugs and Rock 'n Roll" so to spea weren't so obtrusive and available, their own kids would all grow up to be saints and never have a "nasty" thought. Hence the whole, "If you teach them about contraception and make it available, they'll think you're telling them to go right ahead, it's okay".

You're absolutely right, though. If even these could be convinced that the world's morality isn't their responsibility and to let it go (and that would take understanding that human are creatures who, full of hormones at puberty especially, are going to think about sex no matter what, and a certain percentage will act on those thoughts - an admission many of them have trouble with, with their "blame SOMEbody, and preferably somebody else" attitude), then real sex education and available contraception would reduce the number of abortions down to a tiny percentage of what they are now, legal or illegal. That and a humanistic set of social programs that take care of single mothers and the poor would correct the problem as well as it can be corrected, I feel. The Cristian Right can live as they choose; it's their insistence on "Christianizing" everyone else's behavior that irks me.

The worst problem is that the most hard Rightists see it black or white: "we win or they win," and to them that's a God or the Devil issue, an either-or situation, so of course they can't back down and let the Devil win, admitting (and again, it's the only way they can see it) that their faith in God was so inadequate that He chose to allow them to lose. It's an intolerable indictment.

I will hope that a more humanistic attitude does eventually prevail, but I doubt I'll be alive to see it if it ever does.

Ian

 

[budafied]

after all the incontrovertible studies done up to this point that show without doubt that accurate sex education and easily available contraception and abortion reduces the unwanted pregnancies and abortions by up to 90%

Not that I don't believe what ou state here, but could you perhaps give some sources for this claim?

It seems from general observation without statistics that since contraception has been widely available and abortion-on-demand the law of the land, that unwanted pregnancies, especially among teenages, has utterly skyrocketed. Just look at high schools these days...

But I'll take that statement back if you can find a few resource with evidence to the contrary...

 

[budafied]

Oh, and after reading half of this 'essay,' it seems the author makes Christians out to be the equivalent to women as Hitler was to the Jews, which is utterly ridiculous.

Also, if making an argumentative essay, its probably a good idea to avoid harsh language when possible, so as to be taken more seriously....

 

[Rael]

No one has a right to do this.

 

[tribute_13]

Everyone has a choice. I can choose to kill a man but its still illegal. I have violated that man's right to live. The same argument applies no matter how old the individual is. 50 years old or 50 days old.

However, I like most "Paultards" believe that my opinion is no better than anothers. So this decision is a state-issue and not a federal issue.

I personally am against abortion because I believe killing babies is wrong but I also believe it makes me no better to force my opinion on someone else.

 

[AgentOrange]

No one has a right to do this.

Agree, I find it repulsive that there is any debate on that (I am personally against first trimester abortion, but I can understand the issues that lead to differing points of view on that.) There is absolutely no defense, or excuse for a late-term abortion--even if cases of the mother's life or health being at risk, there is no reason not to deliver/caesarean the baby normally and unlow it to die naturally (or live naturally!)

 

[PaulineDisciple]

If God doesn't exist, anyone has the "right" to kill anyone at anytime, as long as they have the firepower to overcome any resistence to their actions.

If God does exist, well that's another story...

 

[budafied]

If God doesn't exist, anyone has the "right" to kill anyone at anytime, as long as they have the firepower to overcome any resistence to their actions.

If God does exist, well that's another story...

Many an argument has been made to outlaw killing without any reference to a God...

 

[mellamojuana]

Another question: Who'll take care of babies, teens, parolees, feeble, infirm

Please pardon my not speaking to the issue whether there be a God. Likewise, you'll overlook my not debating sex education, won't you?

I wish that all women/girls who become pregnant were wise, informed, responsible, supported, financially stable. I also wish Santa Claus were POTUS.

Because we are now completely dependent on the goodwill of neighbors, the deep treasury of the Chinese and Japanese, and the burdensome taxes we ourselves pay, how are we going to support our burgeoning, aging population, and our newborns and their parents?

How many of us give $100.00 ea month to support a new mom and her new baby who have no one but themselves to rely on, and county departments of social services? How many of us volunteer two hours a month to help a neighbor who is taking care of an elderly family member, or a sick one, around the clock? Who among us is going out and advocating for help for them?

I confess that I don't. I have no income. I am an around the clock caregiver for two disabled family members who receive only Medicare after a total of 140 yrs of paying income, property, food, gasoline, telephone, and sales taxes. I can't do any more, besides my daily activism and my duties.

I strongly encourage each one who advocates that every fetus be brought into the world regardless of whether s/he has a home, or can live without life support or institutionalization, give until it hurts to take care of him/her and mama. I can't. I have no money to put where my mouth might otherwise be. Do you? Are you giving it? How many of the babies you are saving are you saving from a life that has a greater than average chance of including poverty, prison, violence?

Let's save them from the discomfort of being aborted. Let's condemn them to a form of hell once they get here. That's the godly, humanitarian, holy way, it comes across to me, unless you can adopt a goodly number of them. I can't.

 

[Rael]

Please pardon my not speaking to the issue whether there be a God. Likewise, you'll overlook my not debating sex education, won't you?

I wish that all women/girls who become pregnant were wise, informed, responsible, supported, financially stable. I also wish Santa Claus were POTUS.

Because we are now completely dependent on the goodwill of neighbors, the deep treasury of the Chinese and Japanese, and the burdensome taxes we ourselves pay, how are we going to support our burgeoning, aging population, and our newborns and their parents?

How many of us give $100.00 ea month to support a new mom and her new baby who have no one but themselves to rely on, and county departments of social services? How many of us volunteer two hours a month to help a neighbor who is taking care of an elderly family member, or a sick one, around the clock? Who among us is going out and advocating for help for them?

I confess that I don't. I have no income. I am an around the clock caregiver for two disabled family members who receive only Medicare after a total of 140 yrs of paying income, property, food, gasoline, telephone, and sales taxes. I can't do any more, besides my daily activism and my duties.

I strongly encourage each one who advocates that every fetus be brought into the world regardless of whether s/he has a home, or can live without life support or institutionalization, give until it hurts to take care of him/her and mama. I can't. I have no money to put where my mouth might otherwise be. Do you? Are you giving it? How many of the babies you are saving are you saving from a life that has a greater than average chance of including poverty, prison, violence?

Let's save them from the discomfort of being aborted. Let's condemn them to a form of hell once they get here. That's the godly, humanitarian, holy way, it comes across to me, unless you can adopt a goodly number of them. I can't.

God is not the issue. The issue is the right of an individual to live, and this right is not affected by irrelevant matters such as who else in the world is or is not doing something to save babies.

It's not your place to decide that that a child's life might be "hell" and therefore it is better that the child be aborted, because a) you have no way of knowing what the child's life my be like, and b) even if you did, you have no legitimate authority over his life one way or the other.

I know in my heart that what happened in those pictures was WRONG. The only thing I still can't decide for myself, is the exact moment in time when a fetus becomes an individual with rights. Certainly if the fetus is viable outside the womb, IMO it has rights. But before that it gets trickier.

 

[Conservative Christian]

Are you giving it? How many of the babies you are saving are you saving from a life that has a greater than average chance of including poverty, prison, violence? Let's save them from the discomfort of being aborted. Let's condemn them to a form of hell once they get here. That's the godly, humanitarian, holy way, it comes across to me, unless you can adopt a goodly number of them. I can't.

Ah yes, the pro-infanticide crowd never fails to invoke the old Nazi "quality of life" argument.

Why don't you go to a dirt poor third world nation and walk around offering to kill every destitute person you come across, and explain to them that you're just doing it to "put them out of their misery". Tell them it's for their "own good".

They'd kill YOU in a quick minute. VIRTUALLY NOBODY would willingly choose to be killed, no matter how bad their conditions.

So run along with your self-righteous, phony "humanitarianism".


.

 

[hadenough]

Ah yes, the pro-infanticide crowd never fails to invoke the old Nazi "quality of life" argument.

Why don't you go to a dirt poor third world nation and walk around offering to kill every destitute person you come across, and explain to them that you're just doing it to "put them out of their misery". Tell them it's for their "own good".

They'd kill YOU in a quick minute. VIRTUALLY NOBODY would willingly choose to be killed, no matter how bad their conditions.

So run along with your self-righteous, phony "humanitarianism".


.

+1

 

[mellamojuana]

I didn't know I'm a crowd and that you're a judge

Judge not, my holy friends who compartmentalize, label, judge, and project onto me.

Can you not "talk" without put-downs? Well, Jesus spoke harshly and called people names sometimes, too, as you recall well, so it is appropriate for his followers to speak disrespectfully.

A Dios'

 

[Ian MacLeod]

Here os an Alternet article with some good links

Not that I don't believe what ou state here, but could you perhaps give some sources for this claim?

It seems from general observation without statistics that since contraception has been widely available and abortion-on-demand the law of the land, that unwanted pregnancies, especially among teenagers, has utterly skyrocketed. Just look at high schools these days...

But I'll take that statement back if you can find a few resource with evidence to the contrary...

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/107615/?comments=layout#comments

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/17/AR2008111703682_2.html?

The article itself is a good summary. This isn't the only thing that confirms what I've said; just the only one I can remember how to find offhand.

Ian